Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 20682 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #493 on: October 19, 2013, 02:02:09 AM »
First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
This is nonsense.  You don't need an "objective moral basis" for anything like that, which is good, because no such moral basis exists.  Not even your god provides one, since he changes his mind quite a bit in the Bible.  Not to mention the fact that he doesn't hold himself accountable to the standards he supposedly sets.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Doesn't it?  How do you know the thing saying that Christians were exempted from Leviticus wasn't put in by demons who wanted Christians to believe that so they'd doom themselves?

Quote from: skeptic54768
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.
Pure sophistry.  Nothing more than a weak attempt to try to 'prove' that your own interpretation of things is true.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Evidence this life is all we get?
Until you provide evidence (real evidence, that's independently verifiable) that there is actually an afterlife, there's no point in trying to disprove it.  It's like trying to disprove that Mordor exists, or Narnia.

Quote from: skeptic54768
if it's so awful to never die, why get upset about God killing babies?
Get it right.  It's getting upset because babies are being murdered by religious fanatics.

----

Also, you should really pay attention to Foxy Freedom.  When you say you're okay with anything your god might tell you to do, it doesn't actually mean that you'd be okay with being told to murder a child, or drink your wife's pureed corpse.  It means you know, subconsciously, that your god would never actually make you do those things, so it's safe to say that you would do anything your god would want you to do - because you wouldn't have to risk following through on something you would refuse to do.  You're projecting your own morality as your god, and trying to make other people abide by it.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #494 on: October 19, 2013, 02:06:46 AM »
Is this targeted at me? If so, where did I say that? Or is this your convoluted interpretation of something I said that wasn't in agreement with your idiotic position?

He was directing it at me, and quoted me wrong i might add.

I stated i would rather have been aborted than to live knowing my parents ditched me.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #495 on: October 19, 2013, 02:07:59 AM »
jaimehlers,

There's no evidence that Marie Antoinette actually ever said that. Actually, many historians believe she never did. Just something that has been attributed to her over time. Actually, I believe the first mention of that saying was stated in some book back then when Antoinette was 8-10 years old.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #496 on: October 19, 2013, 02:18:19 AM »
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Nice one there.
Saying that homosexual sex is bad makes you immoral, just like your religion.

First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.

Its a shame this blip is everything we get, with no afterlife and such. Then again, eternity would be awful, never ever dying.

Evidence this life is all we get?

if it's so awful to never die, why get upset about God killing babies?



Wrong. All the books of the Bible pertain to Christians for two simple reasons:

1. All the books of the Bible were chosen by Christians to be in the Bible and
2. Quoting you Matthew yet again, it states that Jesus didn't come to abolish the old law but to FULFILL them

Please, read the damn Bible.

-Nam
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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #497 on: October 19, 2013, 02:23:36 AM »
Is this targeted at me? If so, where did I say that? Or is this your convoluted interpretation of something I said that wasn't in agreement with your idiotic position?

He was directing it at me, and quoted me wrong i might add.

I stated i would rather have been aborted than to live knowing my parents ditched me.

Oh. Well, since I didn't say it was targeted at me, I will let my comment stand and not retract.

-Nam
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #498 on: October 19, 2013, 02:30:50 AM »
jaimehlers,

There's no evidence that Marie Antoinette actually ever said that. Actually, many historians believe she never did. Just something that has been attributed to her over time. Actually, I believe the first mention of that saying was stated in some book back then when Antoinette was 8-10 years old.

-Nam
It's certainly possible.  Either way, it was believed to have been said by her and probably provoked a lot of unrest.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #499 on: October 19, 2013, 02:48:55 AM »
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Mocking God
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
Calling us dangerous
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition

very offensive stuff.





No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.


It was targeted at me too because I pointed out that he enjoyed calling other people dangerous but does not like me to say the same about him. He has not admitted he called other people dangerous but here is the quote. Do you still deny you call other people dangerous, skeptic?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 02:51:57 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #500 on: October 19, 2013, 04:05:59 AM »
Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived.

I agree with you 100% about that.  Couple questions though.

If "A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived", how do YOU know for certain YOU are not deceived?

If it is possible to be positive how one can not be deceived, would you care to explain exactly how?  You would be doing everyone a great service if you could demonstrate conclusively how NOT to be deceived.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #501 on: October 19, 2013, 04:11:42 AM »
I am being accused of being the dangerous one....

Yes, you are.  Any answer to this post?  Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit that your own words are the ones that make you seem dangerous?

The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will.

lol I am not dangerous. I find it funny that atheists seem to describe Christians as dangerous.

Yeah.  Absolutely hilarious.  I can't imagine why we atheists would ever think that Christians are dangerous.

54768 , you've just told me that if you thought god wanted you to kill my child, you would kill them.  Can you honestly not see how that makes me believe you are dangerous?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #502 on: October 19, 2013, 04:55:08 AM »
This is why we seem to be having problems. Being a racist is wrong. All God's children are equal. This is a Christian principle which was used to end slavery back in 1865. Anyone who is racist and claims to be Christian is simply not following God's Word.
Funny then that jesus did nothing to end slavery when he was supposed to have been on earth.
It was humans that have reasoned and developed to see that slavery is wrong, just as it is wrong to kill gays or adulterers. We know the bible was written by man with the attitudes of the time but society has moved on for the better.
If only you could get your head out of it.
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #503 on: October 19, 2013, 06:07:00 AM »
Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.

You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #504 on: October 19, 2013, 09:04:17 AM »
You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

The first statement could be generally true, but the second one doesn't float, because to gain any spirit, you have to interact with people in the world, and it presupposes a reward in heaven, which is not proven.

Buddhist monks also seem to believe this, but they just sit around on their arse.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #505 on: October 19, 2013, 09:48:03 AM »
Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.

You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

Not a Christian Dictionary?

;)

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Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #506 on: October 19, 2013, 10:22:05 AM »
Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.

You'll soon have enough material from that homespun philosophy to make yourself a suit.

The thing is that believers chant out meaningless phrases all the time. They do not understand what they are saying but "They sound nice."

Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

Not a Christian Dictionary?

;)

-Nam

Demons messed with the definitions in the dictionaries
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #507 on: October 19, 2013, 10:28:46 AM »
I think we need to remember this is the guy who stated he would drink his wife's charred and blended remains if god told him to...
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #508 on: October 19, 2013, 11:15:02 AM »
^^^ Skep, could you add that to your signature line?  If not, I think I may add it to mine - with full attribution to you, of course.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #509 on: October 19, 2013, 11:23:51 AM »
*girly squeal*

I have never had someone add a post of mine to their sig...
Do it, please.

*passes out*
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #510 on: October 19, 2013, 12:08:19 PM »
Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived.

I agree with you 100% about that.  Couple questions though.

If "A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived", how do YOU know for certain YOU are not deceived?

If it is possible to be positive how one can not be deceived, would you care to explain exactly how?  You would be doing everyone a great service if you could demonstrate conclusively how NOT to be deceived.

And, another question/comment... Based on the assumption that your figures have anything to do with reality here...If god actually cares about redemption, has a plan, is omnipotent, etc, etc...Exactly how is it that of all the billions of people on earth, all but a relative handful, or more like the merest pinch of them are damned for eternity? My math is not great, but you seem to be implying that of, let's say 8,000,000,000 people, about 7,980,000,000 are bound for eternal torment. Even though they are going by honest understanding and often trying their utmost to live their lives as they believe they should, based on their upbringing and the way they perceive the world around them? Often with confidence, just as strong and unshakable as yours.

How does the concept of a loving, caring god ever begin to fit in with this scenario?

How do all these alleged demons manage to have so much more power over the world than an omnipotent god that he can only manage to lead such a paltry percentage to salvation?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 12:12:31 PM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #511 on: October 19, 2013, 12:12:08 PM »

a snack from god
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #512 on: October 19, 2013, 12:27:55 PM »
Neither definition appears in Merriam-Webster. Can you explain why that might be?

Not a Christian Dictionary?

;)

-Nam

Just as an aside, the KJV1611-only, fundamentalists will only accept Webster's 1828 as the definitive dictionary. It is a Christian dictionary, prefaced with
Quote
In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed... No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #513 on: October 19, 2013, 01:26:01 PM »
Is abortion barbaric?

To perform on your own, absolutely.
For God to do it, not at all.

Just like if you keep a known serial killer locked up in your basement for months and you don't tell the cops and the cops find out about it, you will get in trouble.
But, locking them up in prison is OK.

And there lies the double standard. It's not surprising that you won't see it though. So the God you believe in can violate his own rules (i.e. - commit the heinous acts you despise, like abortion, genocide, and human sacrifice) and it's OK, but if you do it somehow it's wrong. How exactly do you think abortion is loving, under any circumstance?

See, your 'murderer in the basement' analogy fails because it assumes that judges/court systems are held to a different standard. They aren't. For you to be consistent with this analogy you would have to admit then that your God is held to a standard of morality/law which is outside himself (just like the judge is). Judges cannot unjustifiably kill people - just that same as you can't. Yet, in your twisting irrational logic, you think the rules apply to every person expect God. This brings us right back to the beginning of the discussion. If God can violate his own rules, then you can't know he is "good", b/c you have no way to determine it, and this thing is no different than a mafia boss dictator. How can you call this loving? And by what standard are you using to determine it?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #514 on: October 19, 2013, 01:30:31 PM »
The point is that God could have just forgiven us without the sacrifice. But, He willingly went through with the sacrifice as a homage to us. God willfully took part in pain and suffering to be like us. I find that extraordinarily loving.

This doesn't do anything to solve the problem. It only compounds it. So God could have avoided tons of horrendous suffering, pain, suffering, killing, and eternal torture (as you've already admitted) but somehow in his twisted mind he decided to take the blood thirsty route instead. And again, somehow you see this as loving?

Funny how you completely ignore the double standard that is staring you directly in the face.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #515 on: October 19, 2013, 01:57:30 PM »
The point is that God could have just forgiven us without the sacrifice. But, He willingly went through with the sacrifice as a homage to us. God willfully took part in pain and suffering to be like us. I find that extraordinarily loving.

This doesn't do anything to solve the problem. It only compounds it. So God could have avoided tons of horrendous suffering, pain, suffering, killing, and eternal torture (as you've already admitted) but somehow in his twisted mind he decided to take the blood thirsty route instead. And again, somehow you see this as loving?

Funny how you completely ignore the double standard that is staring you directly in the face.

You know he says he used to be an atheist.

lol!

-Nam
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #516 on: October 19, 2013, 05:51:46 PM »
If "A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived", how do YOU know for certain YOU are not deceived?

You know, skeptic54768, you've been asked this in varying forms like a billion times on this forum.  And you seem to always manage to just not answer or address it, or even acknowledge the question was posed.  It's almost as if you don't want to even think about this question.

Seems pretty apparent that this question would be important for you, personally.  That it should have a deep impact on you.  That this question SHOULD FUCKING MATTER TO YOU.

But you avoid it like a person who knows that their beliefs are just a collection of contradictory bullshit designed to make you feel good and superior to others.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Deus ex Machina

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #517 on: October 19, 2013, 06:02:31 PM »
First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.

On what basis do you assert this?
No day in which you learn something is wasted.

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #518 on: October 19, 2013, 06:59:20 PM »
skeptic54768, is there anything Yahweh could do that you would deem immoral? If yes, please give me an example. If no, then there’s really no point in discussing this with you. I want you to carefully consider this.

I suppose there is not.

God would automatically know the best way to do things. God's knowledge is infinite and our puny minds are but a drop in the ocean compared to God's knowledge. I can not judge God by claiming that I know more than Him. That's nonsensical.

His creation. His rules. That's just the way it is.

Unless of course the God you've been conned into accepting isn't real.

In any case, why worship a hypocritical being who violates his own rules but claims to be "perfect" and "unchanging". Does God sin? Can God sin? If not, then you have a direct contradiction in your theology. God supposedly states that jealousy is a sin, then says he is a jealous God. And what about forgiveness? Notice how God/Jesus commands you to forgive men their trespasses (unconditionally) otherwise God won't forgive you. What gross hypocrisy. So, supposedly, you must forgive your trespassers (and they don't have to do anything to earn your forgiveness) yet God doesn't have to forgive you unless you ask (i.e. - there are strings attached). These are clear signs of MEN doing the writing (just like in many other ancient religions), not a perfect, holy, loving God.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #519 on: October 19, 2013, 07:12:53 PM »
First of all, you have no objective moral basis to say it is moral.
Second of all, Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians.
Third of all, the Jews should be killing homosexuals because they don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law. Since they aren't doing this, we can see how this is evidence that even subconsciously, they know Jesus overturned the Law.

Oh?

1. Morality is about human well being and minimizing unnecessary harm and that, in fact, is objective b/c we can quantify well being (in general) just as we can determine health vs. sickness. If you think morality is about something else, then please demonstrate why we should accept your definition.

2. So God's law doesn't apply to you? Blasphemy!

3. You need to open your bible more. Jesus did not "overturn" the law. According to the NT Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. Are you free to break the ten commands? Those are part of the law. There are 613 more laws to follow too. Did you know that? It just doesn't say what you think it says.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Quesi

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #520 on: October 20, 2013, 04:06:40 PM »
Have we really gotten to 18 pages of this thread without anyone being tempted to post this?



I found a version with the lyrics.  It is actually really good, and worth a listen. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #521 on: October 20, 2013, 06:36:42 PM »
This character lost me when he said that lots of people "have abortions without a second thought".

Who the eff has an abortion without a second thought? I have know many women who have had abortions, and I never met a single woman like that. But, if there are such ignorant, uncaring women, why the eff would you give them responsibility for a child? Do those stupid, frivolous baby-hating women--who supposedly have weekly abortions scheduled around having random unprotected sex, nail appointments, satanic worship services and spin classes-- make the very best mothers, so we should ban birth control and abortion, thus making sure they have lots of unwanted kids?

Alternatively, do you make women endure an unwanted pregnancies-- say by putting them in straitjackets and locking them in cells-- and then forcibly take the babies away and give them to the appropriate Christian adoptive families to raise? He does realize that unwanted pregnancy rates are higher when there is less access to birth control and when kids don't have good sex ed classes. Meaning when Christians are running things, there are more unwanted pregnancies. Didn't he also say that only a tiny % of the people who say they are Christian really are? Maybe that is why they screw things up so much?  :?

But no worries, because everyone belongs to god, so he will surely feed, clothe and educate all the thousands of kids whose parents did not want them. That's what happens in poor countries, right? God cares for them. The unwanted kids don't end up dying on the street from sniffing glue, or becoming child soldiers or child prostitutes or anything like that.  &)

This dude clearly has no respect for the realities of reproduction. Not having an abortion could have a bad outcome. He has never known anyone who after much anguish and weighing of health issues, family matters, responsibility for other children, religion,  circumstances of the father, finances, effects on others, legal or immigration issues, possibilities of having or not having children in the future, decided to 1) go through an abortion,  2) have the baby no matter what the consequences, or 3)chose to endure a high-risk pregnancy that ended in a tragic miscarriage and serious health problems for the mother.  Has he any clue what each of those decisions costs a woman? :(

Furthermore, this guy must not know what life is like for women and children-- and the people who care about them-- in countries where all abortion is already illegal.[1]

It ain't pretty-- women desperate not to have a 6th or 9th or 14th child die--along with the fetus-- from bad amateur abortions; medical personnel don't have the proper abortion-related training so they can't even deal with regular miscarriages or pregnancies that threaten the woman's health. This leaves a lot of children without their moms, men without wives, families without daughters. But it's okay because the dead women and dead fetuses all go straight to the arms of god. :)

He also made a passing disparaging remark about Obamacare, which is a very limited, conservative health care access law. Obamacare just helps more people get and keep private health insurance, and expands the ability of states to pay for poor people's health care.[2]It is not universal public health care like what Europeans and Canadians have. (I wish.) It is not free socialist health care provided by the government. (I wish.) It is not a government takeover of the health care industry. (I wish.) Any of those would be cheaper and cover more people than Obamacare.

That makes me wonder if he approves of welfare programs for women who do what he wants and have their babies, even when they have no way to support them. He certainly does not want them to have better access to health care. I guess god will pay all the medical bills, too.  :P

That is a major problem with so many of these god-believers. They honestly have no interest in making the world-- the real world we all live in-- a nicer place. No wonder they rely so much on heaven being better.
 1. Look at Romania, where the data from the anti-abortion communist dictatorship is chilling. High maternal death rates, women enduring 10+ pregnancies, thousands of abandoned and abused children, horrible orphanages  full of mentally and physically handicapped kids that families could not cope with. Now, in reaction to the past, they have one of the highest rates of abortions anywhere. Lose, lose, lose.
 2. When the people who say they hate Obamacare are told what is in the law, they almost always approve of it. Just not when it is associated with Obama. No, not racist at all....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.