Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 16311 times)

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #406 on: October 18, 2013, 08:02:57 AM »
What does this "BM" mean?
I have seen it a lot and cant get the acronym XD.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #407 on: October 18, 2013, 08:06:42 AM »
What does this "BM" mean?
I have seen it a lot and cant get the acronym XD.

Bookmark.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #408 on: October 18, 2013, 08:13:05 AM »
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Atheism isn't about offering anything, it is simply a lack of belief as you should well know claiming to be a former one.
Religions claim to offer things however I have yet to see anything in the world that would give the smallest amount of credibility to this.
Please feel free to show us all something........not a quote from a book.
i

Fair enough. it was the lack of belief that didn't offer me anything then. It was depressing. Much happier now as a believer. It's like my eyes were opened.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.   George Bernard Shaw
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #409 on: October 18, 2013, 08:16:09 AM »
BM means "bookmark" - so the thread will appear in your "show new replis to my posts" list, even though you may not be actively contributing.

- - -

Gotta say - I've just read 1 Corinthians 7 with (I believe) an open mind.  Initially, I sided with Prejah: I thought "actually, this DOES read like for like".  But then I read closer what it actually said, and the subtle shades of language (that, to be fair, do not appear in Prejah's version.

1 Cor 7 10-11 "Let not the wife depart from her husband: .....and let not the husband put away his wife. "

Very subtle distinction - "don't let the wife leave", compared to "don't let the husband send her away". 

Agreed, the end result is "nobody divorces", but it is at least interesting the way it is phrased.  Wife may not choose to leave, husband may not choose to send her away - that definitely puts the husband in the superior position, with the implication that he is the only one of the pair that would have had the choice.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #410 on: October 18, 2013, 10:18:16 AM »


Chapter 7 talks about the do's and don'ts of marriage. What men can do, and what women can't. It states that a man can divorce a woman (never mentions a wife can divorce her husband), and that verse states that even in divorce she belongs to him. So, he can remarry but she can't or she will become and adulterer. She can only remarry if her husband (ex or otherwise) dies.

Once she marries him she is, basically, his property for life, even in divorce. The whole chapter is about marriage and divorce how you think it is not is baffling.

-Nam

Perhaps you need to read chapter 7 again?

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.  11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. Doesn't this contradict what you said about men divorcing their wives? Men are being told they cannot divorce their wives

13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.Clearly gives the authority of the wife to divorce the husband if for just reason-which living with non believer is not.  Nowhere in this chapter, that I can see, does it state that a woman is the husband's property and cannot divorce him if the situation is just. NIV  What version are you quoting from?

This is why skeptic says to start at the verse and work up from the chapter. People who don't understand it tend to get confused when they pick a verse to stand on.

What version is that? I read from the KJV mainly because it was the first recognizable English version. All versions after that always seem to change the meaning to fit their ideology.

See, you must have another version than I do because 1 Corinthians 7:11 says, and I quote:

Quote
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife

"put away his wife" in this regard is in reference to the wife reconciliating with her ex-husband since the verse states she isn't permitted to remarry another man because in another verse her husband owns her. She is his property for life.

Try reading a version that doesn't interpret it the way they morally feel it should say. Okay.

-Nam

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #411 on: October 18, 2013, 02:45:49 PM »
OK, I am seeing that we seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding. No problem with misunderstandings. I can clarify why you are having a misunderstanding.

The child is not my child. The child is God's child. If God tells me to give give Him one of his children, then I will. I will never kill one of God's children on my own. No way.
jaimehlers responded to this in a most excellent way, and I don't really have much to add.
Quote
We all deserve forgiveness. I love murderers in a spiritual sense. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is the common phrase. I hate what they are doing, but I love them anyway. Hopefully, they can become right with the Lord before they die. No one is beyond redemption.
Why did you say before they die?  Doesn't that imply that people who have died without redemption are then beyond redemption?
Quote
I do not see how this type of pure love can be seen as dangerous. Once you get the materialistic thinking out of the way and focus on the spiritual, it becomes easier to see it form our point of view.

I hope this helps to clear up the misunderstanding.
This type of 'pure love' you allude to is completely meaningless.  It is empty love.  It is simply a word you use.  Saying "I love absolutely everything!  Nothing is beyond my love!" is pointless.  It makes love a four letter word that is devoid of meaning and content.  It's a label you slap on things to make you sound like a good person without actually having to be a good person.

Could you go into any more detail about this whole "thinking spiritually" thing you've alluded to (and have been questioned on multiple times)?  It just seems like "thinking spiritually" is synonymous with "not thinking about it too hard".

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #412 on: October 18, 2013, 03:09:57 PM »
jdawg,

Especially since Biblegod  wants his sheep to give only their love, all their love, to it. So, if they are doing that--how can they really love anyone else?

-Nam

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #413 on: October 18, 2013, 04:09:32 PM »
Why did you say before they die?  Doesn't that imply that people who have died without redemption are then beyond redemption?

I don't know for sure. Maybe you will get a chance to accept Christ upon death, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that one basket.

This type of 'pure love' you allude to is completely meaningless.  It is empty love.  It is simply a word you use.  Saying "I love absolutely everything!  Nothing is beyond my love!" is pointless.  It makes love a four letter word that is devoid of meaning and content.  It's a label you slap on things to make you sound like a good person without actually having to be a good person.

Not meaningless at all. I hate the sin, but love the sinner. Love and hate working together in harmony.

If you use this argument anyway, then the problem of evil has been solved because we can't call anything "good" without something "bad" to compare it to. But, I always found the problem of evil to be one of the most juvenile kiddie types of argument. Bible never says that nothing bad will ever happen to believers. Read book of Job.

Could you go into any more detail about this whole "thinking spiritually" thing you've alluded to (and have been questioned on multiple times)?  It just seems like "thinking spiritually" is synonymous with "not thinking about it too hard".

Materialism is gaining the world by losing your spirit.
Spiritualism is gaining wealth by losing the world.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 04:11:18 PM by skeptic54768 »

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #414 on: October 18, 2013, 04:12:53 PM »
jdawg,

Especially since Biblegod  wants his sheep to give only their love, all their love, to it. So, if they are doing that--how can they really love anyone else?

-Nam

Simply untrue. If a shepherd has 100 sheep and loses 1, he leaves the 99 sheep to go find the 1.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #415 on: October 18, 2013, 04:17:50 PM »
1. ON ANIMAL SACRIFICE
“With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love.” - skeptic54768

If Jesus is God (John 1:1-1-14), the creator of all things, and God is all knowing (Isaiah 46:9) then the entire plan is asinine, sacrifice and all. Seriously, Jesus’ sacrifice means nothing if the sacrifice is to and for himself.

Sacrifice was for us, not Himself.

If God has the attributes of being all powerful, all knowing, and has the ability to foresee the future, are you telling me that the best he could come up with is a plan which involves designing purposely flawed creations (man, woman, and the snake), temporarily leaving and setting up the perfect opportunity for man to be tricked, eventually drowning his flawed creations and regretting it, then eventually sacrificing himself to himself so his creations can be spared the eternal torture? It just doesn’t make any sense. Why not skip the whole dramatic flood event and get straight to sacrificing himself? Or better yet, why not just forgive without the sacrifice?

I can not tell you why God does what He does. It may seem silly to you, but that would be an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Just because you personally can not think of a reason doesn't mean there is no reason. I hope to ask God one day.

“In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins.” - skeptic54768

Animal sacrifice…I don’t even know where to start. I guess this is what I want to know first- how does slitting an animal’s carotid artery and having its blood spill out translate over to atonement? Really, please explain the mechanism behind the forgiveness. How does it work? Why does an innocent animal have to be involved? Saying that something clean is needed in order to be used to redeem the dirty doesn’t explain anything. That’s just a subjective rule of forgiveness a god created. What is Yahweh’s obsession with innocent blood? And he isn’t the only god of antiquity that’s obsessed with blood sacrifice:
  • Kisin, the Mayan god of death required blood sacrifices.
  • Tezcatlipoca, an Aztec god required sacrifices for atonement.
  • Jupiter, a Roman god, was calmed by the spilling of chicken and cow blood.
  • The Sumerian gods accepted animal sacrifice in order to keep the peace.
  • Greek gods were fans of the entrails, lard, and spices.
  • Germanic gods were appeased by animal sacrifices.
  • The list goes on and on...

So tell me something, 54768, how is your god any different when it comes to animal bloodshed? You claim that these other gods were just demons in disguise, but honestly, I can’t tell your god Yahweh apart from Kisin, El, Thor, Marduk, Jupiter, Zeus, or Tezcatlipoca. To bring it full circle, you said that Jesus’ sacrifice to himself for humanity’s sake was the ultimate act of love. An ultimate act of love would not require a sacrifice in the first place. If you want to forgive someone then you just forgive that person with no strings attached. Let’s say I wronged you, 54768, and you decided to lovingly forgive me. What would be more loving and forgiving: 1) simply forgiving me or 2) having me slit the neck of the nearest pigeon and splash its blood on a park bench, or 3) crucifying 54768 Jr. on my behalf?

Any sane person (or deity) would go with #1.

The sacrificial lamb plan is not a plan I would expect from an intelligent moral agent. I sincerely mean that.

I can not tell you why God does what He does. It may seem silly to you, but that would be an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Just because you personally can not think of a reason doesn't mean there is no reason. I hope to ask God one day.

I am not big on arguments from incredulity.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #416 on: October 18, 2013, 04:30:31 PM »
Spiritual experiences are a dime a dozen and aren’t convincing. The problem is people say they have spiritual experiences with gods other than yours, and they use these experiences to claim their god is real, just like you do. Muslims saw angels, Hindus saw and became one with Brahman through meditation, et cetera et cetera et cetera- there are millions of these accounts and they aren’t any more or less convincing than Christian experiences.

Your friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face while he read the Bible? So what? There are countless Muslim testimonies on the internet with nearly identical stories: they were reading the Koran and had a spiritual experience while reading it (saw the word Allah spelt out, felt Allah’s warm glow, saw the face of Muhammad). You wouldn’t take any of that as proof the Koran is true, so why would you take your friend’s story as evidence the Bible is true? Your societal bias is showing.

I have no doubt in my mind that they all had religious experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons create this spiritual experience in followers of demonic doctrines.

I understand your point of view. To you, all experiences are the same and they sound conflicting. But, from my viewpoint they are conflicting because Satan and his demons are very busy deceiving people.

Like I said before, if God just spoonfed everything to us like we do to babies, we would never spiritually mature and grow up. The spiritually mature understand the right religion from false religions.

Look at the Jews for example. They rejected their own Messiah. Why? Because Satan is very powerful and can trick you if you're not ready for it.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #417 on: October 18, 2013, 04:36:06 PM »
Spiritual experiences are a dime a dozen and aren’t convincing. The problem is people say they have spiritual experiences with gods other than yours, and they use these experiences to claim their god is real, just like you do. Muslims saw angels, Hindus saw and became one with Brahman through meditation, et cetera et cetera et cetera- there are millions of these accounts and they aren’t any more or less convincing than Christian experiences.

Your friend saw a flaming cross in front of his face while he read the Bible? So what? There are countless Muslim testimonies on the internet with nearly identical stories: they were reading the Koran and had a spiritual experience while reading it (saw the word Allah spelt out, felt Allah’s warm glow, saw the face of Muhammad). You wouldn’t take any of that as proof the Koran is true, so why would you take your friend’s story as evidence the Bible is true? Your societal bias is showing.

I have no doubt in my mind that they all had religious experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons create this spiritual experience in followers of demonic doctrines.

I understand your point of view. To you, all experiences are the same and they sound conflicting. But, from my viewpoint they are conflicting because Satan and his demons are very busy deceiving people.

Like I said before, if God just spoonfed everything to us like we do to babies, we would never spiritually mature and grow up. The spiritually mature understand the right religion from false religions.

Look at the Jews for example. They rejected their own Messiah. Why? Because Satan is very powerful and can trick you if you're not ready for it.

So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?
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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #418 on: October 18, 2013, 04:38:14 PM »
jdawg,

Especially since Biblegod  wants his sheep to give only their love, all their love, to it. So, if they are doing that--how can they really love anyone else?

-Nam

Simply untrue. If a shepherd has 100 sheep and loses 1, he leaves the 99 sheep to go find the 1.

Woosh!

-Nam

Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #419 on: October 18, 2013, 04:40:31 PM »
Skep,
Makes one wonder why Satan and his brood are so active: giving crazy visions, creating false religions - like chritiandom's oldest[1], talking in your thoughts, doing miracles, deceiving the hell out of do-gooder christian types in the religions you disagree with, and running atheist forums.
Meanwhile, god doesn't do shit to either show he is real or beat up on the demons who are clearly kicking his ass all over the world.  Wimpy god...
 1. that would be Catholicism whether you admit it or not.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 04:42:12 PM by neopagan »
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #420 on: October 18, 2013, 04:42:52 PM »
My apologies, the text size varies on my phone, I tend to misread at times. I retract.

-Nam

Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #421 on: October 18, 2013, 04:44:25 PM »
^^^ a demon might answer...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #422 on: October 18, 2013, 04:50:43 PM »
Skep,
Makes one wonder why Satan and his brood are so active: giving crazy visions, creating false religions - like chritiandom's oldest[1], talking in your thoughts, doing miracles, deceiving the hell out of do-gooder christian types in the religions you disagree with, and running atheist forums.
Meanwhile, god doesn't do shit to either show he is real or beat up on the demons who are clearly kicking his ass all over the world.  Wimpy god...
 1. that would be Catholicism whether you admit it or not.

What do you expect? Jesus said that the gate is narrow to heaven, not wide. Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived. 


Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #423 on: October 18, 2013, 04:53:55 PM »
So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?

Not at all. It doesn't matter what country you are from. Anyone can accept Christ.

My knowledge came from studying the Bible.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #424 on: October 18, 2013, 04:58:57 PM »

Sacrifice was for us, not Himself.
 

And you make this claim in spite of what the Bible says to the contrary. As I have said before what many believers miss is that Jesus' life and sacrifices were not really about us as much as if was about what he and his chosen elect would get from it.
Have you not read Luke 22:29 where he talks about the kingdom that was promised to him or Acts 2:33-36 where Peter speaks about Jesus being elevated to Lord status, and let us not forget what Paul said in Philippians 2:9-10 about Jesus' obedience unto death resulting in Jesus being given a name above all names.
Bottom line according to the Bible, Jesus had something to gain from all of this and the byproduct was the availability of the gift of eternal life for Jesus elect and those that were willing to submit to him as their king. Those that were not ready to bow to King Jesus be damned (Luke 22:27)!

I can not tell you why God does what He does. It may seem silly to you, but that would be an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Just because you personally can not think of a reason doesn't mean there is no reason. I hope to ask God one day.

I am not big on arguments from incredulity.

I'm gonna be bluntly honest with you Skeptic, your god exists exclusively in your own mind so you should be able to tell us the whens and the whys about it. You created it based on your conditioning, understanding, circumstances, biases, beliefs, moral values, and other personal criteria. Your god many share many similarities to other people's god, but each of you has individualized your deity to the point where they all vary from person to person. Here you will see that phenomenon charactorized as SPAG.

Like mostly all believers your understanding and the god that developed from it was built around the"scafolding" of perhaps the Bible. You drew an image from that and created a fuller picture based on your perspective and understanding, personified that picture so it's relatable, and then assigned to it all the glory and majesty of deity you know how. You must realize that the 'scaffolding' you were given as the basis for your god-creation was given to us by men who injected their prejudices, phobias, morality, values, and perceptions of reality into various writings that have been compiled to form the Bible. They used the God Concept to give credence to their beliefs and actions they deemed as righteous. Please try and understand that the god you have in your head/heart is NOT one and the same with the depiction(s) of god(s) those ancient men wrote about. Your god is quite likely more humane, more advanced, less tribal, less prejudiced, more compatible with modern science, and is more cohesive. Hmm, why is that?

All that to say that you have built your god on a weak foundation and because of that you have had to run with and make a ton of assumptions. When confronted with this reality your are forced to try to rationalize what many would say is irrational or you must use circular reasoning or obfuscation. The God Fantasy your mind is delivering to you is making you work to hard to maintain the illusion. It's time for you to choose to question the illusion your mind is presenting and demand solid, irrefutable verification!

Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #425 on: October 18, 2013, 05:01:51 PM »
Skep,
Makes one wonder why Satan and his brood are so active: giving crazy visions, creating false religions - like chritiandom's oldest[1], talking in your thoughts, doing miracles, deceiving the hell out of do-gooder christian types in the religions you disagree with, and running atheist forums.
Meanwhile, god doesn't do shit to either show he is real or beat up on the demons who are clearly kicking his ass all over the world.  Wimpy god...
 1. that would be Catholicism whether you admit it or not.

What do you expect? Jesus said that the gate is narrow to heaven, not wide. Of the 2 billion professed Christians on Earth, we must realize that only about 1% of those Christians are actual followers of Christ.

A lot of people are deceived and don't even realize they are deceived.

your god has a horrible batting average look at the fails and broken covenants:
Eden... strikeout
Flood.... strikeout
Abraham.... strikeout
Moses.... strikeout
Jesus.... extra, extra, extra innings and still a strikeout with less than 1% out of your 2 billion

wimpy and incompetent god...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #426 on: October 18, 2013, 05:03:27 PM »
So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?

Not at all. It doesn't matter what country you are from. Anyone can accept Christ.

My knowledge came from studying the Bible.

No they can't. Apart from being illegal in some countries, people usually follow a version of the religion which surrounds them. What choice did you have to form your views around a different religion?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #427 on: October 18, 2013, 05:18:28 PM »
So you were just lucky to be born in the right country so you can go to heaven?

Not at all. It doesn't matter what country you are from. Anyone can accept Christ.

My knowledge came from studying the Bible.
Can i ask the same question yet again..........anything outside the book?
The bible is clearly written by man, your knowledge comes from a man made book.
What in the world would point someone to the bible and not one of the other religious books available? Why do you think you have followed the correct book?
What led you to the bible and not one of the other available religious books?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #428 on: October 18, 2013, 05:38:06 PM »
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Mocking God
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
Calling us dangerous
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition

very offensive stuff.


So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.



No. it is very dangerous to follow your own understanding. This is a demonic doctrine. It's even written in the Bible, "Lean not on your own understanding." Demons want you to believe that you know it all and you don't need God.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #429 on: October 18, 2013, 06:48:44 PM »

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #430 on: October 18, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.

Do you also deny that you called other beliefs dangerous?

What would you say if I said I could prove your beliefs are satanic (on your own terms)? I can.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 07:07:10 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #431 on: October 18, 2013, 07:02:28 PM »

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.


Except you haven't demonstrated that there is any such things as the "Satanic" or "the demonic". It's just a claim you keep repeating over and over. Until you can actually demonstrate these things there is no reason to accept them, anymore than the claims of an astrologer, an alchemist/witch doctor, or someone who believes in space aliens.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #432 on: October 18, 2013, 07:11:07 PM »

So you think it is offensive, but you enjoy mocking other people's beliefs, saying they are demonic and calling people dangerous if they are atheist.

I am not mocking their beliefs. I am saying their belief is a false doctrine. It's called proclaiming the truth, not mocking.

Nobody has yet refuted the Catholic Church's Satanic symbols and the ones on the Mormon temple. When a church is using Satanic symbols, you know there's a problem. The lay people have no clue that the Catholic Church uses satanic imagery because they have never studied in depth. Those that study it in depth leave the church.


Except you haven't demonstrated that there is any such things as the "Satanic" or "the demonic". It's just a claim you keep repeating over and over. Until you can actually demonstrate these things there is no reason to accept them, anymore than the claims of an astrologer, an alchemist/witch doctor, or someone who believes in space aliens.

it doesn't matter if you believe in Satan or not. the fact is that those symbols have been used by satanic religions in the past. They are now used by the Catholic Church.

make of that what you will. To me, it's obvious.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #433 on: October 18, 2013, 07:25:25 PM »
How about not murder the Egyptian firstborns? I would have expected a benevolent being with ultimate intelligence to have educated the Pharaoh. If you were God what would you have done? If you tell me you also would have started slaughtered innocent people then you need to check yourself in to a hospital, because you’re a sociopath. And you may very well say “Sure I would!” in order to make excuses for Yahweh, but I doubt you would order the mutilation of children like he does, or for that matter, carry it out like Moses and his army does in the book.

You also have to deal with the problem that this was all God’s plan from the start. He designed the Pharaoh in such a way that he would kill the Hebrew’s firstborn males. He knew he was going to get his own rocks off getting revenge by killing innocent Egyptians. Why? Because he planned it “In the Beginning…” If God didn’t want to slaughter children then he simply wouldn’t slaughter children. That’s sort of the perk of being a god, you get to make the rules.

If my child was murdered in front of me the last thing I would do is grab a kitchen knife and murder someone else’s child. The length you’re going to in order to justify Yahweh murdering innocent children is impressive. You’re so afraid of questioning Yahweh you’re willing to create loopholes so he gets a free pass on things you find deplorable.

But I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. […] The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. –Hosea 13:4-16

So Yahweh sends an army to murder children and gut pregnant women. But God knows best right? Those unborn children were God’s anyway. He can spill as many fetuses and placentas in the dirt as often as he wants, because Yahweh's got that ultimate love, right? That’s quite a loophole for barbarism.

It's not barbarism. Do you realize how many people get abortions without a second thought? Atheists can not be pro-choice and then argue against God killing children in the womb.

That's a silly contradictory position to hold.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #434 on: October 18, 2013, 07:43:02 PM »
it doesn't matter if you believe in Satan or not. the fact is that those symbols have been used by satanic religions in the past. They are now used by the Catholic Church.
make of that what you will. To me, it's obvious.


See now you are contradicting yourself again. Earlier you said you don't lean on your own understanding, but now you just admitted that you are (to you "it's obvious") leaning on your own understanding. You just will not see the contradictions in your worldview, will you? In any case, if there is offense on both sides so what. I, and others here, have asked for evidence of why you think this bible is "the Word of God". Please provide it in the OP I created.


Getting back to topic now, this alleged 'sacrifice' did not require the alleged God thing to give up anything. So it wasn't a real sacrifice. If you are going to be consistent you will have to admit that in the OT the people actually lost something (namely an oxe, etc). God making a piece of himself flesh (when he, according to you, owns all flesh) and then destroying that flesh (if true) isn't a loss of anything - and it doesn't matter that there was physical pain. The physical pain of an innocent man (who did not commit a specific murder), or an animal for that matter, doesn't do anything to admonish the true killers terrible deeds. It seems you are using "don't lean on your own understanding" anytime you realize there is a contradiction or irrational justification within your theology. That is called intellectual dishonesty.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche