Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 21771 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #348 on: October 16, 2013, 10:14:24 PM »
Oh,

You said,

Quote
How is that inferior to women? Christ is above both man and woman. If the man is not leading with a Christlike example, the woman can leave. Why would she stay with someone who is not being Christlike?

Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #349 on: October 16, 2013, 11:31:22 PM »
I used to be lost, but not anymore.

Why does it seem that atheists seem to judge over people's beliefs so much while simultaneously preaching tolerance?

I used to be the same way, but I never knew why I did it.
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Also, how do you know that the bible isn't a trick by a demon trying to lure you into a false religion?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #350 on: October 17, 2013, 12:04:00 AM »
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

That's just it, Skeptic:  I, for one, don't trust you.  You would have Me believe that entities who have been role models and inspiration in My life are... demons.  For all I know, you think that I'm a demon too.

In fact, your whole little two-dimensional world is positively infested with demons.  You live in a war zone where things are black or white but never grey.  Worse, you want to erase everything that doesn't look like your god, and exist for eternity in a monochrome realm run by a god who is, in your eyes, the only right thing possible in the universe.

Life is a lot more complex, ambiguous and beautiful than all that, and it's a tragedy that you don't see that.  I doubt very much that you'll be able to convince us that you have something better to offer.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #351 on: October 17, 2013, 12:25:10 AM »
Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam

Please post the exact passage you are referring to. We will then analyze it in the proper context of the whole chapter.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #352 on: October 17, 2013, 12:28:34 AM »
Pure silliness. I am outside the Bible. You can trust me.

That's just it, Skeptic:  I, for one, don't trust you.  You would have Me believe that entities who have been role models and inspiration in My life are... demons.  For all I know, you think that I'm a demon too.

In fact, your whole little two-dimensional world is positively infested with demons.  You live in a war zone where things are black or white but never grey.  Worse, you want to erase everything that doesn't look like your god, and exist for eternity in a monochrome realm run by a god who is, in your eyes, the only right thing possible in the universe.

Life is a lot more complex, ambiguous and beautiful than all that, and it's a tragedy that you don't see that.  I doubt very much that you'll be able to convince us that you have something better to offer.

If the truth is only in black and white, then so be it. No one said the truth had to be pretty. Better to know the ugly truth, than a pretty lie.

Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

But I will admit that I could be wrong. It's highly doubtful given all the proof I experienced, but maybe I am.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #353 on: October 17, 2013, 12:33:11 AM »
Skeptic, there is no meaning to eternal life.  "Eternity" means you never do get to the point of it all, the reason for being there.  It just goes on and on and on...

I saw this 45 years ago in a vision, when I was 11 years old.

It took Me a while longer to realize that meaning exists only in the present.  It's in the doing, in the experiencing.  You can't rent it from a god whom you think knows your meaning better than you.  You can only live it.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #354 on: October 17, 2013, 12:35:23 AM »
What do you mean by judge, exactly?  Do you mean in the sense of judging whether a belief is true or not?

Mocking God
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
Calling us dangerous
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition

very offensive stuff.

Also, how do you know that the bible isn't a trick by a demon trying to lure you into a false religion?

Where did demons come from if not from Yahweh?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #355 on: October 17, 2013, 12:38:29 AM »
Skeptic, there is no meaning to eternal life.  "Eternity" means you never do get to the point of it all, the reason for being there.  It just goes on and on and on...

I saw this 45 years ago in a vision, when I was 11 years old.

It took Me a while longer to realize that meaning exists only in the present.  It's in the doing, in the experiencing.
  You can't rent it from a god whom you think knows your meaning better than you.  You can only live it.

let's analyze the bold for a minute.

if meaning only exists in the present, why bother punishing a murderer? The murder only had meaning in the present. After it was completed, the meaning is gone.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #356 on: October 17, 2013, 12:45:55 AM »
if meaning only exists in the present, why bother punishing a murderer? The murder only had meaning in the present. After it was completed, the meaning is gone.

Actually, it isn't.  The act of committing a murder is a relatively brief thing, but we actually punish the murderer for the consequences of the act -- Consequences that persist, moment after moment, indefinitely.  It alters the timeline of the world by removing a person who could have done any number of things in that world:  Invented something, fought heroically in a war, given birth to the first of many new generations.  People lose a partner, a friend, a co-worker, a father, a mother, a child.  Their grief carries on, their lives affected for the worse.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #357 on: October 17, 2013, 01:09:25 AM »
Not true! A woman is not permitted to divorce her husband, only the husband can divorce from his wife.

Read the damn Bible, you obviously haven't.

-Nam

Please post the exact passage you are referring to. We will then analyze it in the proper context of the whole chapter.

No. Not because it isn't there but because you're just going to make excuses for it. That's all you do. That and call us "illiterate", and frankly you call me or anyone else here that again, I'm going to let loose on you. I don't have a "Watched" because I'm a nice guy. I have it there because I'm the direct opposite.

What I will do, however, is give you the chapter/verse and you can actually crack open your precious book that you obviously have never read (because if you had, you'd know that verse).

1 Corinthians 7:39.

By the by, when divorce is mentioned in the Bible, it is always about the husband divorcing the wife, not the other way around.

-Nam
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #358 on: October 17, 2013, 01:16:36 AM »
Also, how do you know that the bible isn't a trick by a demon trying to lure you into a false religion?

Where did demons come from if not from Yahweh?

Allah, of course, haven't you read the Quran?
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #359 on: October 17, 2013, 01:35:16 AM »

Sorry if this is a bit late (it was midnight here and I needed some sleep,I'm up at 5 in the mornings)
My friend was reading the Gospel of Matthew and said he saw a flaming cross in front of him. This confirmed the Gospel for him. He was never into it until that day. now, he can't stop talking about it.

Things like that are why you can't convince me that it's false.
Again this only happened after reading the bible and not before.
Remember I do not read religious books, so my point is that I have never seen anything to make me think "thats a sign from god and therefor I must go and read this or that religious book".
Could your friend have been very tired and simply had a quite realistic dream ?
Any evidence, any burn marks left by the flaming cross?
I guess he was alone and not ,for example, reading in the park where there could be other witnesses.
In fact, to keep it simple, are there any signs from god(s) anywhere in the world that I could go and have a look at?
Anything at all anywhere.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #360 on: October 17, 2013, 02:00:03 AM »
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

If all you look for in life is the best "offer", and not the absolute truth that is backed up, you are still being delusional, and in my opinion a rather immoral person.

Why not be Islamic and get 72 virgins?

Why not join Hinduism and be reincarnated?

Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster and get booze and hookers?
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #361 on: October 17, 2013, 02:03:08 AM »
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Atheism isn't about offering anything, it is simply a lack of belief as you should well know claiming to be a former one.
Religions claim to offer things however I have yet to see anything in the world that would give the smallest amount of credibility to this.
Please feel free to show us all something........not a quote from a book.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #362 on: October 17, 2013, 02:15:29 AM »
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

If all you look for in life is the best "offer", and not the absolute truth that is backed up, you are still being delusional, and in my opinion a rather immoral person.

Why not be Islamic and get 72 virgins?

Why not join Hinduism and be reincarnated?

Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster and get booze and hookers?

Good call A², and I would further add, if he's just in christianity for the end-of-life bonus package and his god is all knowing ... wouldn't his god get just a little bit annoyed that Skeptic is worshiping the reward in addition to god.

As for the bolded part, a) that only applies to those who died in holy wars and b) that's not in the Quran, so not all Muslims accept that.
The Quran does say that everyone who goes to heaven will get a perfect wife[1] though, so there's that.
 1. not spouse, mind you, it expressly says 'wife' ... so I guess all Muslimas who go to heaven ... all become ... lesbian ...  :? ... ?
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Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #363 on: October 17, 2013, 02:19:24 AM »
As for the bolded part, a) that only applies to those who died in holy wars and b) that's not in the Quran, so not all Muslims accept that.

Yeah...i know.
Its more of a stereotype i guess, but i mean, its about the offer, not the truth.

Therefore believing that you get 72 virgins will get you them after death.

Flawless logic...for theists...
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #364 on: October 17, 2013, 03:00:49 AM »
The gift from Jesus is eternal life though Him. Salvation is not earned, it is given to us as a gift. We just have to accept it. If we do not accept Jesus' free gift, then God will not force us to accept it. Just like if you gave someone a free gift and they took it out of your hands and threw it in a dumpster and walked away.

You still have to ACCEPT the gift. If you throw it away, that is on you. I can only tell people my viewpoint. I can not force them to accept my viewpoint.

Cool.  Thanks Jesus, I accept Eternal Life.  Excellent!  The GIFT has been accepted, so I'll see you in heaven 54768.

Or are there more strings attached to this "gift"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #365 on: October 17, 2013, 03:12:13 AM »
Eternal life surrounded by souls telling me "I told you it was true"
Can you change your mind afterwards, is there an exit door?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #366 on: October 17, 2013, 03:19:26 AM »
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

If all you look for in life is the best "offer", and not the absolute truth that is backed up, you are still being delusional, and in my opinion a rather immoral person.

Why not be Islamic and get 72 virgins?

Why not join Hinduism and be reincarnated?

Why not believe in the flying spaghetti monster and get booze and hookers?

I've always used something similar when hit with Pascal's wager or similar....

The Muslim heaven is more appealing to me than any other.  So that's the best "good" bet of all those available.

You then need to look at the consequences of a "wrong" choice.  Allah seems to be a no-return, no excuses kinda guy.  So picking against him and finding him real is bad news.  On the other hand, picking against Jesus and finding HIM real seems to offer a little wiggle room - I've been offered last chances just after death by some Christians, and he's a forgiving loving kinda guy, so choosing against Jesus is NOT a guaranteed bad outcome.

The clever money therefore is on Islam.  Best upside if you get it right, and worst consequences if you bet against it and it turns out to be right.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Fiji

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #367 on: October 17, 2013, 03:20:01 AM »
Therefore believing that you get 72 virgins will get you them after death.

Flawless logic...for theists...

Yeah, 72 virgins ... but no dick to diddle them with ...  :?
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Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #368 on: October 17, 2013, 03:36:34 AM »
Yeah, 72 virgins ... but no dick to diddle them with ...  :?

Strap-ons?
Gah...
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #369 on: October 17, 2013, 04:36:11 AM »
It' not hypocritical. It's all out there plain as day for anyone to read. It's not just me who has this knowledge:
http://biblelight.net/verita.htm
Again though..........anything outside the book(s)

That is outside the Bible! ...
Baal was a false god.
Baal had a symbol used for him.
Catholics use the symbol for Baal, a false god.
But, Catholics claim to follow Jesus.
So, why use a false satanic symbol?


That was kind of his point, I think.  Earlier you said that anything outside the Bible should not be trusted.  Yet here you are citing something outside the Bible.

If you don't even believe yourself, then why should anyone else believe you?
I think i Should have put a question mark after "anything outside the book(s)"
He may have been quoting from things outside the bible but it is still referencing points that come from other stories written by people in one form or another.
There is still nothing here to show that any of these god stories aren't 100% man made.
-Sorry to jump back a bit, I was having a re-read to catch up again-
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 05:04:04 AM by Jonny-UK »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #370 on: October 17, 2013, 08:36:27 AM »
Actually, it isn't.  The act of committing a murder is a relatively brief thing, but we actually punish the murderer for the consequences of the act -- Consequences that persist, moment after moment, indefinitely.  It alters the timeline of the world by removing a person who could have done any number of things in that world:  Invented something, fought heroically in a war, given birth to the first of many new generations.  People lose a partner, a friend, a co-worker, a father, a mother, a child.  Their grief carries on, their lives affected for the worse.
This is one of the reasons death is so feared.  It isn't because a person should be scared of the fact of their own death (though the means of death is another story), it's because a person dying causes other people to feel pain.  It can be very painful for people who continue living, and it keeps on being painful for a long time, until time and distance can soothe it.  A person can die from that pain, or kill because of it.

That's why we punish murderers.  It isn't just because of the act of murder, though that would be plenty bad on its own, it's because they also wounded everyone who cares at all about the person who was killed.

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #371 on: October 17, 2013, 10:31:55 AM »
Atheism never offered me anything either. The idea that we will just die one day and all this is meaningless? And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...

Is this some sort of a popularity contest for you? Again, atheism is not a belief (just like being a non-astrologer, or non-Santa-Claus-believer is not a belief). So it doesn't need to "attract" anyone. The default position on any given subject is to withhold judgment (admit ignorance) until sufficient evidence and sound reasoning have been presented. So far, you haven't presented any evidence or sound reasoning, b/c your reasons are all irrational. So we should stay lacking belief in your claims (just like we should stay lacking belief in Islam or Mormonism).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 10:38:20 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #372 on: October 17, 2013, 11:38:54 AM »
If the truth is only in black and white, then so be it. No one said the truth had to be pretty. Better to know the ugly truth, than a pretty lie.
Agreed, albeit ironically.
Quote
Atheism never offered me anything either.
Does not compute. How could atheism "offer you" something? It just means you don't believe in god(s) - does not believing in fairies "offer you" something?
Quote
The idea that we will just die one day
....but we will.
Quote
and all this is meaningless?
Who said that? Other than you, of course.
Quote
And people wonder why atheism has only attracted a small percentage of the population...
Who are these "people" you are referring to in that sentence? Is there a recruiting agency out there that I don't know about? Did a bunch of atheists form a club or something?
Quote
But I will admit that I could be wrong. It's highly doubtful given all the proof I experienced, but maybe I am.
The qualifier makes you sound somewhat insincere.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline hickdive

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #373 on: October 17, 2013, 02:59:00 PM »
Yeah, 72 virgins ... but no dick to diddle them with ...  :?

You won't need one, here's your first two virgins now...

Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #374 on: October 17, 2013, 03:51:56 PM »
Mocking God
Well I don't believe that entity actually exists, so it's not so much mocking god as it is mocking the idea of god.
Quote
Calling us stupid and mentally ill
If there is no other context to support such labels, then yes, that would be considered judgmental against that person.
Quote
Calling us dangerous
I imagine dangerous people do not like being called dangerous.

Let me be clear: you are willing to absconce any personal responsibility for ethical decisions based upon the whims of an objectively unverifiable willful entity.  Remember the whole 'I'd kill my kid if god told me to' bulls**t?  THAT MAKES YOU A MONSTER.  YOU WOULD KILL YOUR OWN KID TO SAVE YOUR OWN A$$ OR PLACATE THE WHIMS OF SOME OTHER ENTITY.

Do you think you're dangerous?  Probably not.  Should everyone else think you're dangerous?  ABSOLUTELY.
Quote
Calling our beliefs a joke, fairy tale, superstition
If your belief is not a joke, fairy tale, or superstition, then by all means present it in such a way so that it doesn't look like a joke, fairy tale, or superstition.
Quote
Where did demons come from if not from Yahweh?
From the actual true god that you are failing to worship, because the demon of the Catholic Church has put together a bible full of bulls**t to trick you into thinking that you're following the true path?

A reminder you of your own words:
Quote
Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #375 on: October 17, 2013, 04:45:04 PM »
Hey, Skep....
can you run over to my house this weekend and drive off some demon-deceived-Catholics who also happen to be my in-laws?  You cannot come in the house (cuz you is scary), but I'll send them out on the front lawn, ok?  Have at 'em, I can smell the sulfur!
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #376 on: October 17, 2013, 06:09:06 PM »
Let me be clear: you are willing to absconce any personal responsibility for ethical decisions based upon the whims of an objectively unverifiable willful entity.  Remember the whole 'I'd kill my kid if god told me to' bulls**t?  THAT MAKES YOU A MONSTER.  YOU WOULD KILL YOUR OWN KID TO SAVE YOUR OWN A$$ OR PLACATE THE WHIMS OF SOME OTHER ENTITY.

Do you think you're dangerous?  Probably not.  Should everyone else think you're dangerous?  ABSOLUTELY.

[I will now be the stand-in apologist - taking on the old mind I had 10 years ago, momentarily]

"Oh but you see, we would never kill anyone b/c we know God doesn't command those things anymore. So we would know they contradict scripture and God's plan. See, you have to look at things 'in context'"
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan