Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 20546 times)

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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2013, 11:52:09 AM »
FOR THE RECORD: I used to sound just like skeptic54768 when I was a Christian/Apologist online. True story.

I am sorry, but that does not mean anything. I used to sound like you guys when I was younger. Didn't believe in God at all. Thought it was foolish and silly.

People change their minds based on things in their lives.


Really? You sounded just like us, such as using rational arguments and identifying logical fallacies, all when you were little?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2013, 11:52:44 AM »
You mean the "sin" that God placed within us when he supposedly "knit" us (created us) in the womb? So God created us WITH SIN, and then wants to punish us for it (knowing everything in advance), all for this "perfect plan"? An all-powerful (all-loving?) God would not need to go through all of that. But since we know that men throughout history have made up tons of false religions to control people, it makes a lot more sense under that light. I would ask you why you believe the bible as "the Word of God" but that is off topic. I will start another thread for that.

God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2013, 11:55:06 AM »
Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

If the parent was omnipotent and omniscient and wanted to send the child to a place where they would be tortured for all eternity for disobeying one single order without any explanation as to why it was bad? Blame the parent.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2013, 11:55:16 AM »
Really? You sounded just like us, such as using rational arguments and identifying logical fallacies, all when you were little?

Thought God was something only idiots needed to believe in. I saw myself as smarter than everyone because I figured out there was no God. Then I realized how silly it sounds to think that 90-95% of the world is deluded and I somehow "saw the light" and was right. It didn't feel very humbling.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2013, 11:55:43 AM »

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

Animals were sacrificed because the bronze age and pre-bronze age people were overly superstitious, somewhat barbaric, and flat out ignorant as it pertained to the reasons behind what they witnessed in their lives.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2013, 12:00:12 PM »

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

Animals were sacrificed because the bronze age and pre-bronze age people were overly superstitious, somewhat barbaric, and flat out ignorant as it pertained to the reasons behind what they witnessed in their lives.

Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2013, 12:01:23 PM »
Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

That can not work because no human is innocent.

WTF?  Have you lost the thread of the discussion?  Because your sentence there has no bearing whatsoever on what was said prior to it.   

This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

First of all, that is wrong.  Hebrews sacrificed people on occasion.  Isaac, Jephthah's daughter, and 450 priests of Baal.

Secondly, if animals are innocent and remove sin, then why did we need jesus H at all? 

Do you see the crazy circles you are going in?

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

Therefore...jesus was an animal.



Killing babies is murder, which is a sin.

So what?  Sin- shmin.  You get to have your sins forgiven.  You would do so much good by killing boat-loads of babies and send them directly to heaven.  And they you would be forgive, because JESUS.

No, that is bigotry.

No, that is prudence.  Putting people in charge who could not care less about life and the world is suicidal.

I would never murder anyone.

That's debatable.  You've already said you would kill your children if god asked and you made a case for killing children just for the benefit of sending them to heaven.  So, your non-murder credentials are shakey at best.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2013, 12:03:29 PM »
Thought God was something only idiots needed to believe in. I saw myself as smarter than everyone because I figured out there was no God. Then I realized how silly it sounds to think that 90-95% of the world is deluded and I somehow "saw the light" and was right. It didn't feel very humbling.
Are you under the impression that 90-95% of the world population subscribes to approximately the same beliefs that you do?

Please give China or India a call.  They would like to have a word with you.
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2013, 12:03:38 PM »
Really? You sounded just like us, such as using rational arguments and identifying logical fallacies, all when you were little?

Thought God was something only idiots needed to believe in. I saw myself as smarter than everyone because I figured out there was no God. Then I realized how silly it sounds to think that 90-95% of the world is deluded and I somehow "saw the light" and was right. It didn't feel very humbling.

If you thoughts these things then there isn't any correlation between how you used to be and how I am now.

- I don't think God belief is for idiots
- I don't see myself as "smarter"
- I don't say "there is no God". I simply lack belief (just like I lack belief in astrology or unicorns)
- I don't say it's silly to know that the amount of people who believe something is no indication of it's correctness


So, it is a false comparison. When I was a believer I made many of the same arguments you are making (and I later changed). That is all I was saying.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:05:21 PM by median »
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2013, 12:10:58 PM »

Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.


Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Writings of Apollonius, or any other ancient text?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Dante

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »

God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

Then really, how do you answer Anfauglir's posting below?

Jesus was part of god since the beginning, so in his omniscience he knew right from the beginning that his sacrifice would have been necessary.  Which means that before man was created, Yahweh knew they would fail, Yahweh knew the flood would not work, knew at every intervention he made in the world that it would fail, so.......

Um.

Sorry, I think my apologetics just failed.  If (as 54768 claims) "Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time", then Jesus/god knew before mankind was created that a sacrifice would be necessary.  Knew before Adam, before Eden, before the serpent, that mankind would fall.

And, knowing that, Yahweh created things anyway.  KNOWING that creating the serpent would lead to mankind's fall, Yahweh created it and allowed it into the garden.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2013, 12:14:37 PM »
Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.
While you're at it, there are some nylon-eating bacteria that would also like to have a word with you.

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If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.
What the hell?  I'm confused by this.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2013, 12:18:30 PM »
God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

Humans are so arrogant. The creation narratives with these deities are no more than veiled allegories designed to glorify man's self appointed place at the pinnicle of creation. The "parent" analogy is a flawed one to make your point IMO skept. In a parental scenario, the rule is put in place for the well being of the child's health in order to help the child grow up fit and healthy so the child can reach adulthood which is a peer level with the parental figure. With regards to the Genesis narrative, the same cannot be said. Looking at the scriptures, God is always God above man which I find very convenient as men throughout history claiming to have God on their side have used God as sort of a bully to force others to comply with their demands and accept their convictions as right.

Were an omnipotent and loving God that was our creator to really exist, it would be deeply offended by what the scriptures have depicted it as.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2013, 12:25:34 PM »
Animals were sacrificed because the bronze age and pre-bronze age people were overly superstitious, somewhat barbaric, and flat out ignorant as it pertained to the reasons behind what they witnessed in their lives.

Say what you want about them being stupid, but they figured out that humans were created last without having any idea of evolution.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.

I never called them stupid. That's all you my friend. All I state is the facts and those facts are that they were by and large very superstitious, oftentimes barbaric (yes requiring blood sacrifices qualifies as barbaric), and they were ill-informed (a.k.a. ignorant) when it came to how reality works.

As far as humans not being created first in the creation myth, the fact that they were said to be created last and given authority over creation speaks to how special the writers and promoters of this myth saw human beings. Again, veiled self-deification.

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2013, 12:27:44 PM »
You mean the "sin" that God placed within us when he supposedly "knit" us (created us) in the womb? So God created us WITH SIN, and then wants to punish us for it (knowing everything in advance), all for this "perfect plan"? An all-powerful (all-loving?) God would not need to go through all of that. But since we know that men throughout history have made up tons of false religions to control people, it makes a lot more sense under that light. I would ask you why you believe the bible as "the Word of God" but that is off topic. I will start another thread for that.

God didn't create anyone with sin. He gave us a choice. We didn't listen. Every day people choose to sin.

Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?


You don't believe that God creates every new human life? The bible says this - that he "knits" us in the womb (Psalm 139). If this is the case, then God specifically creates us WITH SIN in us. I didn't choose to be born/created with sin. But if you believe God creates each and every one of us (as you believe he is "the creator") then logically he creates us with sin.

Btw, when parents tell their kids not to get into the cookie jar their kids know right from wrong (b/c they have that capacity and were taught). Adam and Eve (supposedly again, b/c I think it's a myth) did not have the capacity b/c they had not "eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil". So this is also a false analogy because A&E did not know what they were doing (i.e. - no knowledge that what they were doing was wrong).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:35:00 PM by median »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2013, 12:32:05 PM »
That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.

What.  Utter.  Rot!

It is never okay to attempt to purify one thing by killing something or someone else.

Never.

And it is fractally wrong to both accept such a killing and worship the entity that prescribed such a killing (in this case, the hissy-fit god described in the Bible).

This Jesus fellow sacrificed a Passover long weekend and nothing more.  Dad made an offering of Himself to Himself,  on His own initiative, impaled upon His own spear for nine days and nights (q.v. Hávamál 138-139) after the tradition of a shamanic initiatory ordeal.  He also gave up His eye for the gift of wisdom and He didn't ask for it back three days later.

The alleged suffering of Jesus pales in comparison to the pain experienced by Allfather Oðinn, and is infinitesimal if even one thinking, feeling being is condemned to Hell for eternity.  I stand with those so condemned, and reject for all time all possibility of redemption through the ghastly Christian mythos.

Oh, and Jesus wasn't as innocent as you claim he was.  According to the Gospels, he destroyed a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons; he killed a fig tree; he verbally abused a foreign woman by likening her to a dog; and he told his followers to take an ass and colt without asking the owner of the animals.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2013, 12:52:48 PM »
With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love.

Funny, but what many believers miss is that Jesus' life and sacrifices were not really about us as much as if was about what he and his chosen elect would get from it. Have you not read Luke 22:29 where he talks about the kingdom that was promised to him or Acts 2:33-36 where Peter Jesus being elevated to Lord status, or for that matter Paul in Philippians 2:9-10 saying Jesus' obedience unto death was to result in Jesus being given a name above all names.
Bottom line according to the Bible, Jesus had something to gain from all of this and the byproduct was the availability of the gift of eternal life for Jesus elect and those that were willing to submit to him as their king. Those that were not ready to bow to King Jesus be damned (Luke 22:27)!


I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not. There are reasons God does what he does. Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric. It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.

And you know God's reasoning I pressume, lucky you.

A bloody door post isn't barbaric to you because of what it symbolizes (a bloody, tortured, and murdered Jesus)? So I guess crucifiction isn't barbaric either. Your definitions of barbaric may need some tweeking by friend.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2013, 02:56:59 PM »
Since I've missed the boat on this conversation, I want to tie up a couple of loose ends that I think are important.

Odin is just a demon disguised as God. All these false gods are real. They are not fiction.

What if I said, "Yahweh is just a demon disguised as God.  Thor is the One True GodTM, and all others are just demons."  Why are you right, as opposed to me, even though we've said basically the same thing?

Death is not something to be feared, but accepted and embraced. I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

That's a very dangerous worldview that you should probably keep to yourself.  You sound an awful lot like a suicide bomber in training.

If humans were so special, why were they not created first by God according to the story? To me, this suggests it is certainly not a myth and that they certainly weren't stupid.

It suggests to me a bunch of dumb luck and cherry-picking.  If Eve was created after Adam, does that mean women the superior gender and the entire universe should be centered around the needs and caring of women?  I doubt it.
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Offline William

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2013, 03:03:24 PM »
Oh, and Jesus wasn't as innocent as you claim he was.  According to the Gospels, he destroyed a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons; he killed a fig tree; he verbally abused a foreign woman by likening her to a dog; and he told his followers to take an ass and colt without asking the owner of the animals.

Good list Astreja.  And at least one more to add - Jesus didn't throw the first rock at the adulteress:

Quote
John 8: 7  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

If Jesus was without sin He would've obeyed His Father's laws and been the first in the queue to put the adulteress to death:

Quote
Leviticus 20:10  “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

We know Jesus held the Father's law in the highest regard, and wouldn't change a bit of it:
Quote
Matthew 5:17-18  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

So we have two choices here.  Either Jesus must've already been a sinner by His own definition, or else Jesus sinned on the spot by disobeying His Fathers law to stone the adulteress.  So Jesus certainly wasn't the "innocent" pure sacrifice that Christians need to make their magic cleansing work. 

Bad luck for Jesus hey! No bloody wonder &) God needed to rebadge Himself as Allah and send Mohammed to reboot His cause - with a return to violence as means of enforcement  :(

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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2013, 03:19:25 PM »

Killing babies is murder, which is a sin. But when it happens, we must deal with it. the baby is in Heaven. Hopefully, the murderer will repent of his ways so he can go to heaven as well. No one is beyond redemption.

So God sins then? There are quite a few places in the bible where God commands the killing of children and/or kills children himself (with bears etc). I guess your God needs to repent then because he has (according to that book) committed murder on many occasions (as well as condoned slavery and genocide).

But if you admit that you believe in a God who can violate his own moral laws (holding a double standard), why would you want to worship such a thing? Earlier you brought up the case of a judge in a courtroom, but judges are not held to a different standard than lay people. They are held to the same standard. If you believe God can do whatever he wants (even break his own commands) doesn't this just make God a big mafia boss (aka - a cosmic hypocritical dictator)? This sounds a lot more like a man's writings then an all-loving God's. Why would you even consider such a monster to be worthy of worship?

Of course, I speak tongue in cheek of sorts b/c I don't think the bible is an authority on anything moral, let alone anything about deities, but I'm wondering why you accept it a moral authority with such a double standard (and heinous acts performed by God) in place. Islam has a very similar rationale for their moral compass you know.

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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2013, 03:23:51 PM »

We know Jesus held the Father's law in the highest regard, and wouldn't change a bit of it:
Quote
Matthew 5:17-18  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

So we have two choices here.  Either Jesus must've already been a sinner by His own definition, or else Jesus sinned on the spot by disobeying His Fathers law to stone the adulteress.  So Jesus certainly wasn't the "innocent" pure sacrifice that Christians need to make their magic cleansing work. 

Bad luck for Jesus hey! No bloody wonder &) God needed to rebadge Himself as Allah and send Mohammed to reboot His cause - with a return to violence as means of enforcement  :(


Except Jesus was God. So then, God is schizophrenic - always changing his mind as to what is morally permissible and what is not, or just outright contradicting himself by saying one thing and doing another. What a great example for us to follow and be "Christ-like"!
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2013, 03:39:59 PM »
Oh, and Jesus wasn't as innocent as you claim he was.  According to the Gospels, he destroyed a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons; he killed a fig tree; he verbally abused a foreign woman by likening her to a dog; and he told his followers to take an ass and colt without asking the owner of the animals.

Good list Astreja.  And at least one more to add - Jesus didn't throw the first rock at the adulteress:

Quote
John 8: 7  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

If Jesus was without sin He would've obeyed His Father's laws and been the first in the queue to put the adulteress to death:

Quote
Leviticus 20:10  “If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Great point, William - never thought of that.  The story says jeezus started scribbling in the dirt... I think it was her phone number.  :)
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2013, 04:04:55 PM »
God didn't create anyone with sin.

The point here is that no gods ever created anyone - mankind creates gods.

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He gave us a choice.

I have not the faintest idea how you know this, There are no gods, so if you invent one, that god can behave as any other fictional character

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We didn't listen.

Rational people didn't listen to voices in their head. Rational people asked questions.

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Every day people choose to sin.

Look, at some time, someone said, "Why should I spend my time with a load of other people singing songs to a non-existent god?" That was, according to one god out of 5,000 gods, a sin. Before gods were invented, there was no sin. People must have survived, otherwise you would not be here.

"Sin" is a silly word. Yes, people will be bad from time to time. I see this as human nature. You see it as the work of a god who didn't make perfect beings.

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Parent tells their child, "no cookies before dinner." The child eats a cookie and gets punished. Blame the parent for making up the rule or the child for not listening?

No, blame the idiot who gave that as an example -> the kid is condemned to an eternity in Hell for disobedience? Is that what you want?

Is there any hope that you will think about what you are saying?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 04:17:31 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2013, 04:14:22 PM »
Hey guys, I'm a Christian and hope to discuss things with you. My username means that I am skeptical of non-belief. It's kind of a "reverse" of the normal use for skeptic.  ;D
And how are you skeptical of non-belief?  Do you think that atheists secretly believe despite saying they don't?  Or is it simply a way for you to say that you are a believer?

Quote from: skeptic54768
With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it. That is the ultimate act of love. Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.
None of this really follows.  It's basically a series of statements that don't have a lot to do with each other, that you're trying to tie together.  And it isn't really working.  A willing sacrifice isn't necessarily an act of love; coming back to life after said sacrifice suggests that it failed of its purpose; and we don't really know whether Jesus was actually an exception or not.

Quote from: skeptic54768
In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins. This was foreshadowing the New testament where jesus is the innocent lamb and used as a final sacrifice for all. That's why animal sacrifices are not needed anymore.
Animals are not innocent.  Have you ever actually seen what animals can and will do to each other?  Adult male carnivores will often murder (and sometimes eat) young of their own species so that the female will be sexually available.  Adult males in a herd or pack will attack and attempt to drive off or kill wandering males.  This whole business of animals being innocent is based primarily on the idea that humans are sinful (due to the "original sin" in the book of Genesis), and animals are not.

Quote from: skeptic54768
jesus was the ultimate innocent sacrifice. I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not. There are reasons God does what he does. Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric. It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.
Animal sacrifices were because YHWH found the smell of cooking meat pleasing, but hated the smell of cooking grains, fruits, and vegetables[1].  They were generally not blood sacrifices - Passover being a notable exception, when it was used to mark the mantles of doors to keep YHWH from killing off the firstborn of each generation.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I hope this helps. I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view. I will not just be quoting the Bible mindlessly.

Hope we can have good convos!  :)
While I appreciate the lack of mindless Bible quoting, you should spend some time reading the Bible, considering that you don't know it nearly as well as you think you do.
 1. In actual point of fact, it was because the priests liked cooked meat better than cooked grains - what do you think they did with all the cooked meat after the sacrifice was done?

Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2013, 05:44:25 PM »
So we have two choices here.  Either Jesus must've already been a sinner by His own definition, or else Jesus sinned on the spot by disobeying His Fathers law to stone the adulteress.  So Jesus certainly wasn't the "innocent" pure sacrifice that Christians need to make their magic cleansing work.

Well, according to Mark 10:18...
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"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

So much for a perfect, sinless sacrifice, wot?  And so much for Paul of Tarsus, a.k.a. Antichrist Jr., who started that "perfect sacrifice" rubbish in the first place.  (Ever notice how often Paul's ideas contradict the ideas of Jesus, BTW?)
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2013, 06:21:01 PM »
What I am really puzzled by is the invention of heaven and hell the Christians created so Jesus would have someplace to come back from and to go to after three days.

 Why did Yahweh in his master plan not mention heaven or hell to his original followers,the Jews?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2013, 06:25:36 PM »
Jesus also did not sacrifice himself,he like many other criminals of the time was killed for crimes against the people in charge
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nick

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2013, 06:40:31 PM »
I never understood why Jesus needed to visit hell after He kind of died? As I understand it, once in hell you are in hell.  Why the visit?  To rub it in?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2013, 09:24:52 PM »
These are a lot of responses. I have read them all but I do not have all the time in the world to respond to them all. I did not know this forum moves so quickly.

I just don't want you guys to think, "He's stumped! We got him!" if I don't respond to everything. I do have things to do in life. I can not constantly be in a 1 vs 20 battle every day.

I will try my best to respond to posts I deem to be the most important due to time purposes.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)