Author Topic: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?  (Read 24623 times)

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Offline William

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2013, 08:37:16 AM »
Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time. Imagine the agony of preparing for the sacrifice since the beginning of time. How dreadful it must have been.

Jesus also had the weight of everyone's sins so He experienced way more pain than anyone has ever had. Imagine the heavy burden Jesus had.
(my bold)

There it is.  The "suffering" card played right in front of our eyes.  The guilt-trip nobody asked for &) but to which the fearful joyously submit.

How the heck did Jesus know about this required sacrifice from the beginning of time? He was only conceived about 2000 years ago and supposedly lived for 33 years (BTW equipped with magic that could've easily reduced his own suffering before getting fully upgraded super-powers).  Before Jesus came into existence God was doing His own thing trying various bully tactics to sort out the shit on earth - drowning people in the flood, bombing them with fire, turning people into salt, demanding blood sacrifices, inventing commandments, orchestrating wars, instructing rape and pillage.  The whole idea of using Jesus' apparent suffering to mentally enslave humans was a very late development in God's game plan.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 08:41:17 AM by William »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2013, 08:44:19 AM »
Hey guys, I'm a Christian and hope to discuss things with you. My username means that I am skeptical of non-belief. It's kind of a "reverse" of the normal use for skeptic. 

yeah.  Kind of like being ignorant is the reverse of being knowledgeable.

With that said, I would like to say that Jesus' sacrifice was important because He willingly did it.

? Why is that the important part?  Would we not have been saved had he been forced to it?  Sin would have been paid for either way, no?

Jesus showed that he conquered death. Everybody dies, but Jesus was an exception. That's what made it so extraordinary.

but he was allegedly god, thus immortal.  So not really that extraordinary and not particularly exceptional for a god. 

In the Old Testament, blood of an innocent lamb was used on the door's of the Hebrews. This represented how an innocent animal must be sacrificed to atone for sins.

Does that not sound primitive and barbaric?  What kind of god works that way?

Also, was the "innocent" lamb willing or was it forced? 

This was foreshadowing the New testament where jesus is the innocent lamb and used as a final sacrifice for all.

So someone else died to pay for your transgressions.  You do the crime, someone else does the time. Does that really strike you as justice?  How do you feel about that, ethically?

That's why animal sacrifices are not needed anymore.

No, not according to the jews.  Animals are not sacrificed any more because the temple was destroyed.[1]


I know a lot of people think of the OT as "Evil" and "barbaric" but it is not.

?  So says you.  It is clearly barbaric.  It portrays barbaric characters with barbaric ethics doing barbaric things.  Explain how it is not barbaric.  Otherwise this conversation becomes "nu-uh" "yuh-huh" back and forth.

There are reasons God does what he does.

Says you.  What are the reasons and how do you know?  What makes those reasons non-barbaric?


Blood spread o the door was not evil and barbaric.

It is certainly disgusting and barbaric.  Explain how it was not.

It symbolized the coming of Jesus' sacrifice in the New Testament.

Does not make it not barbaric.


I'm not here to preach, just to explain my point of view. I will not just be quoting the Bible mindlessly.

Excellent.  Be prepared to be challenged and explain and support your assertions.




All I know is that a lot of things in the Bible are based on the number 3. I can not tell you why God picked the number 3.

Because jews were superstitious and into numerology.  They though numbers has magical meanings.

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I do not have kids, but if God told me to sacrifice one of them, I would do it.

Pardon me if this sounds harsh, but you are either a fucking monster or criminally insane.  You should be locked up and prevented from being around any children.  I strongly urge you to call your local police and confess your murderous inclinations for the sake of everyone around you.


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Right now you may be thinking, "What a sicko!" but I believe you may be missing the point.

Yes, I am thinking that, but no, I am not missing the point.  I believe you are missing the point.

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God will never ask me to do that because sacrificing is OVER. Jesus completed it. No more sacrifices. If 'God' told me to sacrifice my child, it would be a demon masquerading as God to try and fool me, and I wouldn't end up doing it anyway.

I have a couple of thoughts.  The first is, you were only talking shit when you said you'd kill your kids.  You were saying what badass, cold-blooded faith you had and how you would gladly murder children for god.  But you don't have kids. So you don't know what they would mean to you.  And only did that because you thought god would never call your bluff.  So, you're just a loud mouth who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.  A poser for jesus.

Second, you are trying to put god in a box.  God is not constrained by what you think he wants.  Neither is he constrained by what he told some people 2000 years ago. yhwh has never respected any deal.  Remember Job?  yhwh had a deal to protect him and make him prosper in exchange for Job's loyalty.  Instead, yhwh let an angel inflict horrible suffering on him, breaking the deal, but still demanded Job's loyalty.

If god wanted you to kill some kids, he would tell you to kill some kids.  It wouldn't be the first time he did that.  Your problem is you have no way to know whether it was yhwh, the devil, Loki or a halucination.  How could you tell the difference?

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Again, I'm just trying to explain my view and thought process.

Suffice it to say, I think your views and thought processes are... misguided at best. 

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A lot of those things were because the nations refused to worship the true God. They were all worshiping false gods and disobeying God. God gave them chance after chance after chance to repent but they did not do it. They knew the punishment was coming and they didn't care.

You are making our case for us.

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Any reasonable parent would stick to the punishment if their children broke the rules. Otherwise, the children will do whatever they want and that's not good.

Parents punish children so they learn and change their behavior.  What does a person learn by being executed?  How does that positively change their behavior?

 


Jesus gave up his Heavenly status in order to become human. He then went back after it was fulfilled.

So it wasn't a sacrifice.  If you give up something for five minutes, it's not really a sacrifice.  You keep focusing on the innocence part, and missing the whole sacrifice part.  It was no sacrifice if nothing was lost.  He was god before and god afterward, with an uncomfortable weekend in between.

 1. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2091/why-do-jews-no-longer-sacrifice-animals
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8862/why-dont-jews-sacrifice-animals-anymore
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2013, 09:04:16 AM »
Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time. Imagine the agony of preparing for the sacrifice since the beginning of time. How dreadful it must have been.
 
(my bold)

How the heck did Jesus know about this required sacrifice from the beginning of time? He was only conceived about 2000 years ago and supposedly lived for 33 years (BTW equipped with magic that could've easily reduced his own suffering before getting fully upgraded super-powers).  Before Jesus came into existence God was doing His own thing trying various bully tactics to sort out the shit on earth....

No, see William, Jesus was part of god since the beginning, so in his omniscience he knew right from the beginning that his sacrifice would have been necessary.  Which means that before man was created, Yahweh knew they would fail, Yahweh knew the flood would not work, knew at every intervention he made in the world that it would fail, so.......

Um.

Sorry, I think my apologetics just failed.  If (as 54768 claims) "Jesus knew he would be resurrected since the beginning of time", then Jesus/god knew before mankind was created that a sacrifice would be necessary.  Knew before Adam, before Eden, before the serpent, that mankind would fall.

And, knowing that, Yahweh created things anyway.  KNOWING that creating the serpent would lead to mankind's fall, Yahweh created it and allowed it into the garden.

Tell me again why I should feel gratitude for the "sacrifice" that was required to make up for the mistakes Yahweh made even though he knew exactly what the results would be?  You make a mistake, you correct it - nobody should feel indebted to them for clearing up their own mess.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2013, 09:39:56 AM »
It seems like a fairly simple choice:
 
  Dead jeezus = sacrifice
  Live jeezus = no sacrifice

Pick one, because they are not mutually exclusive (don't agree? ask the lamb - or Isaac, in your examples)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2013, 09:41:41 AM »
It seems like a fairly simple choice:
 
  Dead jeezus = sacrifice
  Live jeezus = no sacrifice

Pick one, because they are not mutually exclusive (don't agree? ask the lamb - or Isaac, in your examples)

does that mean we were only redeemed for 3 days?

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2013, 10:01:13 AM »
I have personally spoken to people who, just like you, have had spiritual experiences of Allah, (Rav)Indra, Vishnu, the Crone aspect of the Triple Goddess, Yahweh, Odin, the Buddha and Satan. So, they're all right?

Hell, if you talk to enough Wiccans and neo-druids, you'll probably come across some that HAVE had spiritual experiences of unicorns.

By your reasoning, we now must accept the existance of all of these mentioned and it is up to the Atheist to provide proof that each and every one of them does not exist ... yeah.

Also, since you are skeptical of our non-belief in your deity of choice ... are you also skeptical of your own disbelief in, say, Odin? Do you deep down know, in your heart, that Odin is real, you're just surpressing the knowledge?

The fact of the matter is that those people did have spiritual experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons disguise themselves as false gods to try and trick people into worshiping them. The Bible makes it clear about this. We have to be able to recognize the false religions created by Satan and his demons.

Odin is just a demon disguised as God. All these false gods are real. They are not fiction.

Since people didn't know what coma was, at the time, three days was the default time you had to wait before someone was considered dead (except, of course, if he was quite obviously not getting up from that spear to the head). No signs of life for three days ... he's dead.
It's an Ancient Hebrew custom that got used in the bible.
To show that you reallyreallyreally beat death, you had to do something, three days after being presumed dead. Well, actually getting up and walking around would do the trick, but lacking that, the next best thing is spinning a good yarn about such a thing.

I see.



Your thought process seems to go along the lines of "whatever I like". The voices in your head tell you to do something. You like it => must be god, you dislike it => must be a demon.
In other words, you're engaging in SPAG[1] ... just like pretty much all theists.
 1. Self Projection As God

No, that is not it at all. I explained that Jesus' sacrifice was final and the end of all sacrifices. This is how I know God will never ask me to sacrifice a child. If God does ask, it's a demon trying to trick me and test my faith. Someone who didn't have strong faith may fall for it and sacrifice their child. But, I have strong faith. If I was alive in the OT times and God asked me to, I would do it. How can I turn down the creator?

It's not just based on "my thoughts." It's based on studying the Bible and understanding it.

What chance did god give the firstborn of Egypt? Or the babies that got their heads smashed against the rock? Or all the babies who drowned during the flood?
Also, if they KNEW Yahweh was real, and the only god ... why not worship him?[2]
Homer, towards the end of the Homeros at least has Athena make it juuuuust unclear enough whether or not Odysseus has divine help or not. So the suitors feel they have a chance. The OT ... well, that's just lazy writing.
 2. In the same way that the average North Korean worships Kim Jong-un

The firstborn were killed by God because Pharaoh killed the firstborn males of the Hebrews. What should God have done about that? Just shrug it off and laugh? Reward Pharaoh? OT times were blood for blood, tooth for tooth.

Even today imagine if someone witnessed their own baby murdered right in front of them by someone. I can't even imagine what they would do in retaliation.

I have yet to KILL any of my kids, you know.

Yes, because you are not God. We are God's creations. He gave us life and He can take it away. EVERYONE dies. Is God evil for allowing every single person to die? Or is there some cutoff age where God is evil for allowing them to die up til they reach a certain age? If God allows someone to die at 17, is that evil? But is it evil for someone to die at 25? 37? 54? 66?

God is evil for setting up a no win situation in the garden of Eden and then punishing every single human ever for a crime he himself engineered. And he is evil  for punishing some people FOR EVER! Absolutely no one ever deserves eternal punishment.

Nobody deserves eternal punishment. That is why all you have to do to get out of it is to accept Jesus as your Savior and allow him to change your life. It's the simplest thing a person can do.

In the same way, nobody deserves to go to prison. it's a horrible place. But, all you have to do to get out of it is to obey the law and not commit crimes. If people do these things, they will go to prison. The judge would be foolish to allow criminals to get away with no punishment. This is why many people are still outraged about OJ. They feel he got away with it.

What kind of God would God be if he allowed sin to go unpunished?
What kind of judge would a judge be if he allowed crimes to go unpunished?

Ultimate innocent, ok ... well, not ok, Jesus did condone slavery, after all. Sorry, not ultimately innocent.
And as several others have pointed out, there was no sacrifice. So, you statement becomes "It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent to end all sacrifices."
So ... just having Jesus exist was enough ... so ... why the torture and the three day nap? Does this god of yours get off on torture porn?

A man was brutally beaten and tortured for my sins and yours.
The gift from Jesus is eternal life though Him. Salvation is not earned, it is given to us as a gift. We just have to accept it. If we do not accept Jesus' free gift, then God will not force us to accept it. Just like if you gave someone a free gift and they took it out of your hands and threw it in a dumpster and walked away.

You still have to ACCEPT the gift. If you throw it away, that is on you. I can only tell people my viewpoint. I can not force them to accept my viewpoint.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2013, 10:19:07 AM »
It seems like a fairly simple choice:
 
  Dead jeezus = sacrifice
  Live jeezus = no sacrifice

Pick one, because they are not mutually exclusive (don't agree? ask the lamb - or Isaac, in your examples)

does that mean we were only redeemed for 3 days?

I guess so... So much for that "perfect sacrifice" BS. 
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2013, 10:20:27 AM »
Why is that the important part?  Would we not have been saved had he been forced to it?  Sin would have been paid for either way, no?

It would not have been as important. This is why God needed a willing sacrifice.

but he was allegedly god, thus immortal.  So not really that extraordinary and not particularly exceptional for a god. 

What is extraordinary to God? nothing. To us, it is extraordinary though. God creating the whole world is nothing to Him, but amazing to us. All these things are for us.

Does that not sound primitive and barbaric?  What kind of god works that way?

God has His ways of doing things. The lamb's blood symbolized Jesus and foreshadowed Him. You just view it as blood smeared on a door. But, we view it as a symbolic reference to Jesus.

Also, was the "innocent" lamb willing or was it forced? 

Animals are sacrificed as innocent but since they can not give consent to be sacrificed, they are just innocent. Remember that the flesh smell is pleasing to the Lord, much in the same way if someone is having a BBQ, some people get a nice whiff of the grill and love the smell of it. This isn't surprising considering we are made in God's image. God gave us the animals for food and the smell is pleasing to us too.

So someone else died to pay for your transgressions.  You do the crime, someone else does the time. Does that really strike you as justice?  How do you feel about that, ethically?

Yes, what is the alternative? How will you prove yourself worthy of heaven? If God said, "Just be a good person and do good deeds and HOPE you did enough to make it in", it would be foolish. People would be scramblign wondering if they did enough good deeds.

Someone else taking the punishment for you and you just accepting it is the simplest way.

No, not according to the jews.  Animals are not sacrificed any more because the temple was destroyed.[1]
 1. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2091/why-do-jews-no-longer-sacrifice-animals
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8862/why-dont-jews-sacrifice-animals-anymore

Yes, the Jews reject Jesus, much as most of the world. This was predicted. "Narrow is the gate to Jesus." He didn't say, "Wide is the gate."
?  So says you.  It is clearly barbaric.  It portrays barbaric characters with barbaric ethics doing barbaric things.  Explain how it is not barbaric.  Otherwise this conversation becomes "nu-uh" "yuh-huh" back and forth.

The OT rules were ahead of the other cultures for the times.










Pardon me if this sounds harsh, but you are either a fucking monster or criminally insane.  You should be locked up and prevented from being around any children.  I strongly urge you to call your local police and confess your murderous inclinations for the sake of everyone around you.

I love children. Would never sacrifice one. Sacrificing times are over.

I have a couple of thoughts.  The first is, you were only talking shit when you said you'd kill your kids.  You were saying what badass, cold-blooded faith you had and how you would gladly murder children for god.  But you don't have kids. So you don't know what they would mean to you.  And only did that because you thought god would never call your bluff.  So, you're just a loud mouth who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.  A poser for jesus.

Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.

Second, you are trying to put god in a box.  God is not constrained by what you think he wants.  Neither is he constrained by what he told some people 2000 years ago. yhwh has never respected any deal.  Remember Job?  yhwh had a deal to protect him and make him prosper in exchange for Job's loyalty.  Instead, yhwh let an angel inflict horrible suffering on him, breaking the deal, but still demanded Job's loyalty.

Should we accept the good form God but not the bad? Anyone can praise God when their life is going great and curse Him when their life is bad. To stick with God through it all makes you grow spiritually as a person.

If god wanted you to kill some kids, he would tell you to kill some kids.  It wouldn't be the first time he did that.  Your problem is you have no way to know whether it was yhwh, the devil, Loki or a halucination.  How could you tell the difference?

Because sacrificing is over. That's how I know. If someone told me to do it, it would be a demonic influence and Christians don't pay attention to demons.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2013, 10:20:56 AM »
Odin is just a demon disguised as God.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2013, 10:29:00 AM »
No, that is not it at all. I explained that Jesus' sacrifice was final and the end of all sacrifices. This is how I know God will never ask me to sacrifice a child. If God does ask, it's a demon trying to trick me and test my faith. Someone who didn't have strong faith may fall for it and sacrifice their child. But, I have strong faith. If I was alive in the OT times and God asked me to, I would do it. How can I turn down the creator?

It's not just based on "my thoughts." It's based on studying the Bible and understanding it.

So, was Jephthah listening to a demon in Judges 11?  OR... lemme guess... Jepthah decided to do all that on his own - yet, YHWH honored J's vow and sat on his thumbs when his daughter came on the scene (unlike ramming his way in for a rescue with Abraham and Isaac)

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What kind of God would God be if he allowed sin to go unpunished?
What kind of judge would a judge be if he allowed crimes to go unpunished?

So much for all that turn the other cheek nonsense junior preached... good for us but not for god?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2013, 10:35:22 AM »
The fact of the matter is that those people did have spiritual experiences. The problem is that Satan and his demons disguise themselves as false gods to try and trick people into worshiping them. The Bible makes it clear about this. We have to be able to recognize the false religions created by Satan and his demons.

Odin is just a demon disguised as God. All these false gods are real. They are not fiction.
Well that's a new one to me.
Quote
No, that is not it at all. I explained that Jesus' sacrifice was final and the end of all sacrifices. This is how I know God will never ask me to sacrifice a child. If God does ask, it's a demon trying to trick me and test my faith. Someone who didn't have strong faith may fall for it and sacrifice their child. But, I have strong faith. If I was alive in the OT times and God asked me to, I would do it. How can I turn down the creator?

It's not just based on "my thoughts." It's based on studying the Bible and understanding it.
Could you better explain 'strong faith'?  I guess I'm not clear what having 'more' faith and 'less' faith means in this context.

But furthermore - how can you turn down your creator?  Simple - you say 'no, god, that is cruel and immoral to murder an innocent child.  I will not be a monster'.  And you take your punishment from the master of the universe, comforted by the fact that you willingly accepted punishment in exchange for being a good and moral person.  You're telling me you'd be unwilling to sacrifice yourself for the life of your child?

On top of that - how would you know it wasn't a demon disguised as god asking you to do that?  Did demons not exist back then?  Did they not try to trick people back then?
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The firstborn were killed by God because Pharaoh killed the firstborn males of the Hebrews. What should God have done about that? Just shrug it off and laugh? Reward Pharaoh? OT times were blood for blood, tooth for tooth.
Oh, I dunno, maybe punish the guilty party who would stand a chance to understand the wrongs they committed instead of murdering innocent babies that had nothing to do with the transgression?
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Even today imagine if someone witnessed their own baby murdered right in front of them by someone. I can't even imagine what they would do in retaliation.
You probably would be able to easily empathize if they retaliated by murdering the person who murdered their baby.  You'd probably have a fit if they turned around and murdered other innocent babies that had nothing to do with murdering the first baby.

You've got a pretty screwed up moral compass.
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Nobody deserves eternal punishment. That is why all you have to do to get out of it is to accept Jesus as your Savior and allow him to change your life. It's the simplest thing a person can do.

In the same way, nobody deserves to go to prison. it's a horrible place. But, all you have to do to get out of it is to obey the law and not commit crimes. If people do these things, they will go to prison. The judge would be foolish to allow criminals to get away with no punishment. This is why many people are still outraged about OJ. They feel he got away with it.

What kind of God would God be if he allowed sin to go unpunished?
What kind of judge would a judge be if he allowed crimes to go unpunished?
You know, ideally at least, we don't throw people in jail just for the sake of punishing them.  The intent is to prevent them from doing further harm and to potentially rehabilitate that person so that they do not do harm in the future.  You seem to think that justice is about re-balancing universal karma or something - as if it doesn't matter who is being punished, as long as someone is getting hurt it is making up for some transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.
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A man was brutally beaten and tortured for my sins and yours.
The gift from Jesus is eternal life though Him. Salvation is not earned, it is given to us as a gift. We just have to accept it. If we do not accept Jesus' free gift, then God will not force us to accept it. Just like if you gave someone a free gift and they took it out of your hands and threw it in a dumpster and walked away.

You still have to ACCEPT the gift. If you throw it away, that is on you. I can only tell people my viewpoint. I can not force them to accept my viewpoint.
How do you know this 'gift' isn't a demon disguised as god trying to get you to feel morally right when doing the most heinous of atrocities under the pretense of being granted eternal life?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2013, 10:52:13 AM »
Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.
Could you (or anyone else) point out where that is in the bible?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2013, 10:55:34 AM »
Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.
Could you (or anyone else) point out where that is in the bible?

Isn't this supposed to say it - Hebrews 10:1-18

Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2013, 10:57:52 AM »
I do not see unicorns the same way as God.

I had a spiritual experience with God. I never had a spiritual experience with unicorns. Many people around the world always claim to spiritually experience God, not unicorns.

That is why I believe it is unfair to compare the two.

The amount of people believing a given proposition (gods, fairies, racism, slavery, etc) is not any indication that such beliefs are true. Furthermore, the content of a belief itself is not a justification for being "skeptical of non-belief" - b/c we could that same logic for other nonsensical things (such as astrology). Millions of people across the world believe astrology. Would it make sense then for someone to approach you and say, "I'm skeptical of non-belief in astrology"? Again, this reasoning process, and this method of language, is flawed and inaccurate. The better and more honest approach to just to say you believe in X and go about discussing it (especially since the subject of religion, like the subject of astrology, is often controversial and highly debated).

These are the kind of questions where I would have to know God's thought processes in order to answer them.

I do not know why he picked 3 days. But, I also do not know why he picked 3 days for Jonah in the whale either. I also don't know why God is 3 persons that make up 1. Why not 5, 6, or 7, etc...?

All I know is that a lot of things in the Bible are based on the number 3. I can not tell you why God picked the number 3.

This is an honest answer, and I do appreciate it. Do you think that the God you believe in (from the bible) can violate the laws of logic? For example, according to your theology, can God violate his own nature, make a square circle, or tell lies?

I do not have kids, but if God told me to sacrifice one of them, I would do it. Like I said, I have no fear. God knows best. The afterlife is where my child will go, which is the end goal.

The child is also not mine. The child is God's. So it would be God asking for his own child if you really think about it. Nothing in this world is ours. it all belongs to God. God does what He thinks is necessary for His plan. I can not question the creator of everything. God was generous to create a world for us.

Right now you may be thinking, "What a sicko!" but I believe you may be missing the point. God will never ask me to do that because sacrificing is OVER. Jesus completed it. No more sacrifices. If 'God' told me to sacrifice my child, it would be a demon masquerading as God to try and fool me, and I wouldn't end up doing it anyway.

Again, I'm just trying to explain my view and thought process.

This response actually brings us back, for a moment, to the question I asked in the latter half of my previous response above. How do you determine whether the 'God' you believe in is good or not? In other ways, what method do you use to go about making that judgment? Also, btw, are you familiar with the Euthyphro dilemma?

A lot of those things were because the nations refused to worship the true God. They were all worshiping false gods and disobeying God. God gave them chance after chance after chance to repent but they did not do it. They knew the punishment was coming and they didn't care.

Any reasonable parent would stick to the punishment if their children broke the rules. Otherwise, the children will do whatever they want and that's not good. When you warn your child of what happens if they disobey, and they disobey you, you have to do what's necessary and punish them. This is why a judge doesn't say to a murderer in court, "Oh you murdered someone? No big deal. Go free." The judge must stick to the punishment.

If God is evil for enacting punishment, then judges are evil for sending people to prison. The people knew the risk they were taking, disobeyed the law anyway, and have to deal with the consequences. Don't blame the cops or judge.

For you then, is God just a big dictator (aka -a mafia boss) who can violate his own laws/rules? We are talking about small children and infants, and the bible clearly states some pretty horrific things about the God you believe in (pertaining to what he supposedly commanded). In Hosea, we find God (again allegedly, b/c I don't think these things were commanded by a God at all) commanding unborn children to be cut open and ripped from their mother's wombs. Is this moral? Can you think of any circumstance in your life, at all, where it would be justified to cut open a pregnant woman, rip out her unborn baby, and run it through with a sword? That's a pretty horrific picture, isn't it? In 2 Kings, God allegedly sends two bears to maul (tear apart) some small children for merely making fun of Elijah's baldness. Is this justified in your mind? 

If, for you, God is just a big dictator and no matter how many heinous or vile acts he commands of you, you must do, how then can you determine whether this God is actually good? By what standard do you use to measure whether or not his actions/commands are good? As it seems God could then change what is considered good at anytime and you have to follow.

It's not about jesus having to lose something. It's about jesus being the ultimate innocent sacrifice to end all sacrifices.

But this is my point. A sacrifice requires a loss. That is why it is called a sacrifice. Otherwise, it has no power to do anything, especially since we did not agree to it's terms or conditions from the start. Perhaps more importantly though (I asked this earlier), how is it that a God who is allegedly all-powerful (sacrificing himself, to himself) can do anything to take away a person's moral responsibility to another person by merely killing something and then bringing it back to life? An all-powerful God could do anything, including just forgiving everyone, not hiding by being invisible, opening communicating to all, etc.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2013, 11:15:55 AM »
Could you (or anyone else) point out where that is in the bible?
Isn't this supposed to say it - Hebrews 10:1-18
Thanks!

Translations I looked at:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A1-18&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A1-18&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10%3A1-18&version=NKJV

skeptic54768 -

I'm uncertain if these are the passages that you're referring to, but if they are, then I don't think you can say that all sacrifices were finished with Jesus.  It seems to indicate that sacrificing for the atonement of sins is all done with, but not as a general case.  Basically, I'm not seeing anything here that clearly states that god will never again ask for a sacrifice as a test of faith (a la Abraham).

Did you have a different passage and/or translation in mind, or am I failing to understand this one?

As a bit of an aside, these passages also seem to indicate that Jesus did not sacrifice himself under his own will.  He was explicitly deferring to god's will.  It almost seems like he was doing it, not as a sacrifice for all of us, but for god and god alone.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2013, 11:20:48 AM »
Odin is just a demon disguised as God.

(Springy G reaches for Her Clue-By-Four™)

*BONK*  Don't dis My Dad.

And My creation (sort of; my book will explain more).
You see, skeptic54768, we have (at least) three gods on this forum. You have Astreja, Odin and Myself, the One Above All.[bn]By alphabetical order, rather than order of importance.[/nb] I dare you to prove any one of Us is a false god.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2013, 11:24:11 AM »
You know, ideally at least, we don't throw people in jail just for the sake of punishing them.  The intent is to prevent them from doing further harm and to potentially rehabilitate that person so that they do not do harm in the future.  You seem to think that justice is about re-balancing universal karma or something - as if it doesn't matter who is being punished, as long as someone is getting hurt it is making up for some transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.

No. Sometimes we put people in prison for life with no possibility of getting out. How is that rehabilitation? No matter how sorry the person is, they won't get out. The judge could say, "All these laws are stupid. Let's just make everything legal," but people would be in an uproar. They'd be saying how the judge needs to enact punishment on the criminals.

This is the same way with God. God needs to enact judgment on the evildoers. If he allowed sin to go unpunished, there would be no point to anything.

How do you know this 'gift' isn't a demon disguised as god trying to get you to feel morally right when doing the most heinous of atrocities under the pretense of being granted eternal life?

Because Yahweh is the One True God. He demonstrated this by upstaging all the false gods that people worshiped. He was more powerful than them because they were just demons. Tell me what you think God should do when people are worshiping demons...just let it go unpunished like a judge with criminals?

Demons are tricky. Eve after Pharoah saw God's great power, he still refused it. He still wanted his false gods because demons give you whatever you want. God doesn't do that. God is fair.

It's very easy to slip into materialism and want everything for yourself. This is why a lot of the false religions are very popular with people. Demons promise you everything because they want to be worshiped.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2013, 11:29:24 AM »
Nevermind.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2013, 11:30:39 AM »
If you guys can view things in a spiritual light instead of a materialistic light, it might make more sense to you.

Since you guys view death as the end, you think it's cruel to kill a baby (even though abortion is legal but that's another topic.)

But in a spiritual sense, death is NOT THE END! The afterlife is infinitely more important than Earth life. A child dying and going to Heaven is the best thing that can happen for them. it is the best thing that can happen for anyone. That is why I say that I have no fear.

Death is not something to be feared, but accepted and embraced. I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

There is nothing to fear when God is in your life. Nobody's treatment of you can bring you down. The ones who do bad things to you are the ones who need God's love the most. If somebody had me at gunpoint, I would be preaching the love of God to them until they pulled the trigger. I would not be cursing them.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2013, 11:32:08 AM »

It would not have been as important. This is why God needed a willing sacrifice.

That does not explain anything.

What is extraordinary to God? nothing. To us, it is extraordinary though. God creating the whole world is nothing to Him, but amazing to us.

That does not explain your perspective nor refute my pont.

God has His ways of doing things.

That does not explain anything.

The lamb's blood symbolized Jesus and foreshadowed Him. You just view it as blood smeared on a door. But, we view it as a symbolic reference to Jesus.

That does not explain your perspective nor refute my point.  I apologize if this sounds repetitive.  I think you need to do a better job understanding your own position and then articulating it.  It sounds to me like you are just repeating things you have been told and accepted uncritically.  You do not even seem to understand the objections presented.

Animals are sacrificed as innocent but since they can not give consent to be sacrificed, they are just innocent.

So why was jesus' compliance required?  If consent is not required to remove sin in animal sacrifices, it should not be required by human sacrifices. 


Remember that the flesh smell is pleasing to the Lord, much in the same way if someone is having a BBQ, some people get a nice whiff of the grill and love the smell of it. This isn't surprising considering we are made in God's image. God gave us the animals for food and the smell is pleasing to us too.

That's one way to look at it.  Kind of a self-aggrandizing, egotistical way.  "Whee, lookit us!  We're just like god!" 

Another way might be to consider that you have it backwards.  God likes burning flesh because we like a BBQ, and he is made in our image.  In "biblical" times pretty much all gods liked the smell of burning flesh.  It is a primitive idea. 

Also, you seem to misunderstand "image".  First of all, the phrase is literally transcribed as "Let us make a man in our image".[1]  Plural, because the early hebrews were polytheists, and yhwh was just one of their gods. Secondly, image does not mean a clone.  If we were made in yhwh's image, then it meant we look like him.  From Strong's:
Quote
I.image
  A.images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
  B.image, likeness (of resemblance)
  C.mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6754&t=KJV

None of those imply anything other than a visual similarity.


Yes, what is the alternative?

Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

If God said, "Just be a good person and do good deeds and HOPE you did enough to make it in", it would be foolish.

How is that any different?  How is the current scenario any less foolish?


Someone else taking the punishment for you and you just accepting it is the simplest way.

It is an ethical free lunch and definitely not justice.  You should be appalled just typing those words.

Yes, the Jews reject Jesus, much as most of the world. This was predicted. "Narrow is the gate to Jesus." He didn't say, "Wide is the gate."

That missed the point.  Answers a question that was not asked. Please focus.


The OT rules were ahead of the other cultures for the times.

No, actually, they weren't.  And you need to back up your statements with facts.  What cultures were behind, in what way and on what evidence do you base this claim?



I love children. Would never sacrifice one.

So when you said you would sacrifice your child you were not being truthful?  Which is it?

Not true. I'm just going by what the Bible says. Bible says the sacrifices were finished with Jesus. I didn't make that up and put it in the Bible.

This does not refute my point at all.  You are a poser who boasted that you would kill your children if god asked, but you then say you know god would never ask.  So what would be the point or risk in making that boast in the first place?

Second, you are trying to put god in a box.  God is not constrained by what you think he wants.  Neither is he constrained by what he told some people 2000 years ago. yhwh has never respected any deal.  Remember Job?  yhwh had a deal to protect him and make him prosper in exchange for Job's loyalty.  Instead, yhwh let an angel inflict horrible suffering on him, breaking the deal, but still demanded Job's loyalty.

Should we accept the good form God but not the bad? Anyone can praise God when their life is going great and curse Him when their life is bad. To stick with God through it all makes you grow spiritually as a person.

This does not refute my point.  You seem confused and unable to directly answer any of my questions or points.  You said god doesn't do sacrifices any more.  Not only is that irrelevant - god could still demand you murder your children as a test of faith, not a sacrifice - but it is wrong.  You assuming god would not ask you to murder your own children is a bad assumption.  God can and has gone back on his word and he has demanded people murder children.   

Because sacrificing is over. That's how I know. If someone told me to do it, it would be a demonic influence and Christians don't pay attention to demons.

Who said it has to be done as a sacrifice?  Just because you don't like the message does not mean it is from a demon.  yhwh has made all kinds of unsavory demands of people.  You are giving yourself an out.


You have pretty irrevokably convinced me you are some kind of sociopath.
 1. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=26&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1026
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2013, 11:32:51 AM »
<snip>

There is no Heaven or Hell. I created no such thing, and I created everything in existence. Your god is a false god who promised you everything you ever wanted in return for worshiping it. By your own logic, your god is a demon.
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2013, 11:36:00 AM »
If you guys can view things in a spiritual light instead of a materialistic light, it might make more sense to you.

Since you guys view death as the end, you think it's cruel to kill a baby (even though abortion is legal but that's another topic.)

But in a spiritual sense, death is NOT THE END! The afterlife is infinitely more important than Earth life. A child dying and going to Heaven is the best thing that can happen for them. it is the best thing that can happen for anyone. That is why I say that I have no fear.

Death is not something to be feared, but accepted and embraced. I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

There is nothing to fear when God is in your life. Nobody's treatment of you can bring you down. The ones who do bad things to you are the ones who need God's love the most. If somebody had me at gunpoint, I would be preaching the love of God to them until they pulled the trigger. I would not be cursing them.


Many of use here used to be Christians, making similar arguments you are attempting to make here, and we later realized that those arguments are irrational (just like we notice Islam is irrational). We do not accept the bible as an authority on nearly any subject - nor do we find good reason for thinking there is a "God" or an afterlife. All the reasons we have heard are illogical. This is why I asked you earlier if you think God can contradict himself or violate his own nature.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2013, 11:41:52 AM »
No. Sometimes we put people in prison for life with no possibility of getting out. How is that rehabilitation? No matter how sorry the person is, they won't get out.
But they still get to live their lives, marginally contribute to society even, and are (ideally) prevented from causing further harm in society.  Furthermore, we, as a society, and are not omnipotent and are not omniscient.  There are some people we are simply unable rehabilitate.  I would say that the necessity of having to have someone be thrown in jail for life is a failure of our society, and we should strive to not have to do that.
Quote
The judge could say, "All these laws are stupid. Let's just make everything legal," but people would be in an uproar. They'd be saying how the judge needs to enact punishment on the criminals.

This is the same way with God. God needs to enact judgment on the evildoers. If he allowed sin to go unpunished, there would be no point to anything.
Evildoers like the innocent babies who had nothing to do with the transgression.

Again, your moral compass is screwed up.
Quote
Because Yahweh is the One True God. He demonstrated this by upstaging all the false gods that people worshiped. He was more powerful than them because they were just demons. Tell me what you think God should do when people are worshiping demons...just let it go unpunished like a judge with criminals?
What is it with you and punishment?  What do I think god should do?  Clearly and unequivocally explain to these people that these false gods are actually demons and why his path is the right path.  Alternatively, seeing as how he is more powerful than them, he could lock up the demons.

Seriously, why do you think it's OK to punish everyone except the entities responsible for a transgression?
Quote
Demons are tricky. Eve after Pharoah saw God's great power, he still refused it. He still wanted his false gods because demons give you whatever you want. God doesn't do that. God is fair.
Fair - like murdering innocent babies that had nothing to do with any transgression.

You have a screwed up moral compass.
Quote
It's very easy to slip into materialism and want everything for yourself. This is why a lot of the false religions are very popular with people. Demons promise you everything because they want to be worshiped.
You've never talked to a religious person who isn't a Christian, have you?
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Offline median

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2013, 11:43:34 AM »
FOR THE RECORD: I used to sound just like skeptic54768 when I was a Christian/Apologist online. True story.
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2013, 11:45:38 AM »
Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2013, 11:45:55 AM »
If you guys can view things in a spiritual light instead of a materialistic light, it might make more sense to you.

Explain how to see things in a "spiritual light".  WTF does that mean?

Since you guys view death as the end, you think it's cruel to kill a baby (even though abortion is legal but that's another topic.)

Then I guess that means you think there is nothing wrong at all about killing babies (even though you want to force women to have babies who do not want them)

But in a spiritual sense, death is NOT THE END! The afterlife is infinitely more important than Earth life.

This is the most dangerous view on the planet.  I truly believe people like you should be quarrantined to an island far away from the rest of us.  Like, Antarctica.  Or at the very least, forbidden from making any kind of decisions for any other human being.


A child dying and going to Heaven is the best thing that can happen for them. it is the best thing that can happen for anyone.

So you should be high fiving abortion providers since they are doing the best thing that can happen for anyone.

I will gladly die for my faith than sell out and lie about my faith in Jesus in order to live more materialistic existence.

That's baloney.  I do not believe you in the least.

If somebody had me at gunpoint, I would be preaching the love of God to them until they pulled the trigger. I would not be cursing them.

Blah-dee blah-dee blah.  More big talk with nothing behind it.  Spare us the xian martyr fantasies. 

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2013, 11:46:51 AM »
FOR THE RECORD: I used to sound just like skeptic54768 when I was a Christian/Apologist online. True story.

I am sorry, but that does not mean anything. I used to sound like you guys when I was younger. Didn't believe in God at all. Thought it was foolish and silly.

People change their minds based on things in their lives.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2013, 11:50:17 AM »
Seriously?  How about you take responsibility for yourself?  If someone close to you was killed and the police executed some random person whom they and you both know did not commit the crime, would you really consider that to be justice?  Or if you were the random guy executed for someone else's crime?

That can not work because no human is innocent. This is why animals were sacrificed because they can not sin. They are innocent. Since all humans sin, you can not use a human as a sacrifice. The dirty can not clean the dirty as I mentioned previously.

This is why Jesus was CLEAN. He was free from sin. A pure and perfect sacrifice.


You mean the "sin" that God placed within us when he supposedly "knit" us (created us) in the womb? So God created us WITH SIN, and then wants to punish us for it (knowing everything in advance), all for this "perfect plan"? An all-powerful (all-loving?) God would not need to go through all of that. But since we know that men throughout history have made up tons of false religions to control people, it makes a lot more sense under that light. I would ask you why you believe the bible as "the Word of God" but that is off topic. I will start another thread for that. 
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Re: Jesus - What Kind of Sacrifice Are You Talking About?
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2013, 11:50:24 AM »

Then I guess that means you think there is nothing wrong at all about killing babies (even though you want to force women to have babies who do not want them)

Killing babies is murder, which is a sin. But when it happens, we must deal with it. the baby is in Heaven. Hopefully, the murderer will repent of his ways so he can go to heaven as well. No one is beyond redemption.

This is the most dangerous view on the planet.  I truly believe people like you should be quarrantined to an island far away from the rest of us.  Like, Antarctica.  Or at the very least, forbidden from making any kind of decisions for any other human being.

No, that is bigotry. I am not calling for all atheists to be quarantined. I would never murder anyone. I treat people with respect and dignity.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)