Author Topic: Another rationalization for you [#2766]  (Read 1979 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« on: October 04, 2013, 06:46:13 PM »
I had the same questions. As I researched this issue and studied the original languages used for the verses you cite, I became convinced that confusion has arisen due to mistranslation.

It is my contention that the only thing promised by the God of the New Testament is that when a believer prays to know he or she more, then he or she will show up. The Bible describes a scenario where Christ is more than willing to transform people into more loving, others-centric people if they are willing to be obedient and to seek to have God's spirit interact and change them.

It never states that God is a genie. In the account, God sends Christ to die for sins and to enable the type of experience I mention above and after that was accomplished the miracles ceased. God no longer grows limbs, heals, raises people from the dead, controls the weather, etc.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2125
  • Darwins +135/-3
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 07:24:26 PM »
Hello letter writer,

It is my contention that the only thing promised by the God of the New Testament is that when a believer prays to know he or she more, then he or she will show up.

I was a believer and follower of Christ for 20 years.
I had a crisis of faith and was afraid I was going to fall away from God.
I desperately prayed to my Lord to help me and show me the way.
No answer.
Nothing.
It's been 8 years since.

If what you're saying is true then this god failed on it's only promise.

Will you tell me I wasn't sincere enough? Will you tell me I was never a true Christian? What is your response?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6951
  • Darwins +941/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 07:33:44 PM »
I get it now, it was all a misunderstanding, based on bad bible translations! Oh! Wonder why the most important book ever had to be written in obscure dead languages? God knew that most people would not be able to read ancient Greek in 2013, and just let it go. So most people don't get the right information and have go to hell. Sucks to be them. Not god's problem.

Nowadays with cameras on every cell phone, you would think god would want to show his stuff even more! Imagine how awesome it would be to see people rising from the dead, growing new limbs and being healed from dementia in real time right on CNN. No need to worry about bad translations. Everyone believes and heaven is chock-a-block with new saved souls. But no. God can't be bothered-- he used up all his miracles with the Jesus.

Funny how god decided to stop performing obvious miracles right about the same time that people started using critical thinking and the scientific method.  I imagine god is hecka bored, sitting around in heaven thinking about all the good old days back when he was a bad mamajama. Like an old washed-up mafia don--

"In my day I used to smite people if they didn't worship me. I mean really smite 'em! Like with lightning and sh!t.  I once made it rain frogs-- remember that time I made it rain frogs?  Shee-it. Sometimes I smote 'em just for snicks. Even my most faithful servant could get his a$$ kicked six ways from Sunday. Plagues and boils and whatnot. Jesus Christ, those were good times."

Since god no longer does anything, what is he for?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1701
  • Darwins +114/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 07:48:06 PM »
It is more about people having a fixed mindset.

Accurate translations are usually given in the footnotes but you often need to know the cultural context to understand them. The main problem with the original texts is that the list of variant readings is longer than the text itself.
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline shnozzola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1972
  • Darwins +111/-2
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 07:57:26 PM »
....... a scenario where Christ is more than willing to transform people into more loving, others-centric people ......

  Not all christians have the more loving, others-centric view.  For Instance:





Are these people brainwashed? Bad translation?    Are they as certain of their beliefs as you are?

Couple things.  I understand the love part.   I also think it is good.
But this wisdom needs no god.  And facts point to there not being a god.  But, the question is, how to you treat atheists?  Do you feel they could be correct?  Or are you sure the god of the bible exists?  How do you treat Muslims?  Jews?  Hindus?  Come and discuss your beliefs and consider ours. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:00:19 PM by shnozzola »
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 09:30:57 PM »
I had the same questions. As I researched this issue and studied the original languages used for the verses you cite, I became convinced that confusion has arisen due to mistranslation.

It is my contention that the only thing promised by the God of the New Testament is that when a believer prays to know he or she more, then he or she will show up. The Bible describes a scenario where Christ is more than willing to transform people into more loving, others-centric people if they are willing to be obedient and to seek to have God's spirit interact and change them.

It never states that God is a genie. In the account, God sends Christ to die for sins and to enable the type of experience I mention above and after that was accomplished the miracles ceased. God no longer grows limbs, heals, raises people from the dead, controls the weather, etc.

Interpretation? I really don't care. What I care about is evidence.

Since the God character supposedly does magic, and did so in your stories in the past, why is quite conspicuously absent as soon as people can check if these miracle really happen?

Why do the miracles shrink in size over time...exactly in proportion to how close to the present they become?

Really why is it exactly the same amount of evidence, that is none, as a completely made up story?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
  • Darwins +71/-24
  • Gender: Male
  • Retired Residential Tulpamancer.
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 10:46:14 PM »
Another decoder ring?

As a question back, how do you know that you are "One true christianTM"?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Darwins +357/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 11:12:54 PM »
"the God of the New Testament..." -- that's the rub. So, by quoting anything from the Old Testament, like Genesis (creationism), the 10 Commandments, etc., etc., is spouting off the ramblings of a "false god"!

You lose.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2781
  • Darwins +80/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 12:42:06 AM »
I had the same questions. As I researched this issue and studied the original languages used for the verses you cite, I became convinced that confusion has arisen due to mistranslation.

You then never give an example of this "mistranslation".


Quote
It is my contention that the only thing promised by the God of the New Testament is that when a believer prays to know he or she more, then he or she will show up. The Bible describes a scenario where Christ is more than willing to transform people into more loving, others-centric people if they are willing to be obedient and to seek to have God's spirit interact and change them.

As opposed to... the "God of the Old Testament"?  Are they two seperate beings?



Quote
It never states that God is a genie. In the account, God sends Christ to die for sins and to enable the type of experience I mention above and after that was accomplished the miracles ceased. God no longer grows limbs, heals, raises people from the dead, controls the weather, etc.

So the world operates exactly as though god does not exist.  Looks like we agree on that point.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Benny

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Darwins +16/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Hugs And Love
    • My YouTube channel
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 03:30:28 AM »
It never states that God is a genie.

"...Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." -Matthew 17:20

"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you..." -Matthew 7:7

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." -Mark 11:24

"All things are possible to him who believes." -Mark 9:23

Sounds an awful lot like a genie to me.
I'm here every now and again.
We're gonna rock down to Alexis Avenue, he makes the score go higher!

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6951
  • Darwins +941/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 02:17:00 PM »
God is all-powerful awesome and can do anything. Except that, that, that, that and that. And no, he doesn't do that or that. Or that. He used to, though.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Darwins +357/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 02:35:12 PM »
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6777
  • Darwins +821/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 02:37:43 PM »
How come the details were lost in translation, but not the bullshit? One would think all sorts of problems would arise when something that influential is mistranslated. But when the crap comes through loud and clear in every verse, I'm pretty sure the issue isn't translation, but the lack of thought that originally went into that tall tale.

We have no contemporary stories from this god guy. We do have church buses with dead people in them, religious wars with dead people in them, right-wing politicians who wish there were other things with dead people in them, and tv evangelists who want all your money after your dead, and most of it before that. We don't have an active deity involving himself in the personal lives of even his most loyal servants, let alone drowning armies chasing his chosen people. We don't have a new group of half a million wandering around in a desert anywhere, all lost and shit. Most of our plagues are being cured by medical pros, most of our floods are manageable and none of the folks we've executed as of late have come back to haunt us. So it sure is sounding like a story that was made up from the get go. So again, translations are irrelevant. If nothing is true about any of it, the details are of no importance.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Tero

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 730
  • Darwins +18/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 02:43:25 PM »
Just when did God turn into a deist?

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6951
  • Darwins +941/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 03:10:30 PM »
Just when did God turn into a deist?


I am sure it was a coincidence that god kinda disappeared from active participation about the same time that literacy, the scientific method and world travel became widespread....and cellphones with cameras. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Benny

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Darwins +16/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Hugs And Love
    • My YouTube channel
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 03:14:29 PM »
I am sure it was a coincidence that god kinda disappeared from active participation about the same time that literacy, the scientific method and world travel became widespread....and cellphones with cameras. &)

Relevant XKCD:



http://xkcd.com/1235/
I'm here every now and again.
We're gonna rock down to Alexis Avenue, he makes the score go higher!

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6951
  • Darwins +941/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 03:30:04 PM »
I am sure it was a coincidence that god kinda disappeared from active participation about the same time that literacy, the scientific method and world travel became widespread....and cellphones with cameras. &)

Relevant XKCD:



http://xkcd.com/1235/

There ya go--Sam McCloud.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jtk73

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Darwins +15/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2013, 01:43:15 PM »
....due to mistranslation.

Ugh. What is the deal with these mistranslation or bad translation excuses?

Serious question - Why would God allow a mistranslation to occur EVER? much less persist? Does he just really not care that everyone get the exact message that he is trying to convey?

OR...maybe he is just powerless in that regard?

or maybe he does not exist and humans concocted the whole thing to stroke their egos.

Quote
It is my contention that the only thing promised by the God...

What good does this do me? It is 'your contention'? What evidence do you have that your 'contention' is accurate?

It is my contention that the bible is an entirely fictional book just like The Hobbit or IT. There - see how that works? My contention is just as valid as yours.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2013, 08:08:10 AM »

It is my contention that the bible is an entirely fictional book just like The Hobbit or IT. There - see how that works? My contention is just as valid as yours.

Actually more valid as their contention requires violation of observed universal constants(or in other words...magic)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 13105
  • Darwins +357/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2013, 01:33:07 PM »
The Hobbit isn't true?

Damnit! :'(

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Antidote

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
  • Darwins +19/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • >.>
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 02:41:08 AM »
The Hobbit isn't true?

Damnit! :'(

-Nam
It's true for those who have faith, and beg for J.R.R Tolkiens forgiveness, FOR HE IS THE ONE TRUE GOD!!!!
/sarcasm
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline DoctorLivingston

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2013, 05:52:29 PM »
If what you're saying is true then this god failed on it's only promise.

Will you tell me I wasn't sincere enough? Will you tell me I was never a true Christian? What is your response?

Zankuu,
I just now am seeing that I received replies to my post, so my apologies for the wait.

I'm sure that your crisis of belief was a difficult time. My short answer to your question is: "I don't know." My questions would be: what caused your crisis of belief, what specifically? During that time were you actively serving others or were you spending most of your time in self-examination? Were you obedient to what god was "saying" to you through scripture? Did you seek other Christians to talk about what you were going through?
I wouldn't dare to label you as insincere nor question your spiritual state.  You aren't alone. Many Christians experience the same challenges.
The above is my conviction and opinion. I could be wrong.

"We are all Fundamentalist- just about different issues."

Offline DoctorLivingston

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2013, 06:10:46 PM »

Since god no longer does anything, what is he for?  :?

In my experience, god absolutely continues to do the spiritual things god said he/she would do. Again, not what we deem god should do, but what god has promised to do.  He/she has, over the years made me more loving and a more others-centric person. I can recognize that god has developed in me a desire to help others that surpasses my own natural benevolent inclinations. I can acknowledge that I could be wrong about this, but I can no more deny that it is happening to me than I can convince myself that I fairly won a race when I know I cheated.
The above is my conviction and opinion. I could be wrong.

"We are all Fundamentalist- just about different issues."

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
  • Darwins +32/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2013, 06:34:35 PM »
Exchange god with picnic basket and it is just as valid. It's a shame that you have to believe in bullshit in order to be a better person.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline DoctorLivingston

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2013, 06:46:29 PM »
....... a scenario where Christ is more than willing to transform people into more loving, others-centric people ......

 
Not all christians have the more loving, others-centric view.  For Instance:



Their behavior is abhorrent.

Are these people brainwashed? Bad translation?    Are they as certain of their beliefs as you are?

We often hear "Don't judge." However, in my conviction, scripture doesn't forbid "judging," it forbids "condemning." Condemning = "they are definitely going to hell." Judging = pointing out to a self-described believer that what they are doing doesn't align with scripture.
Therefore, I feel confident in saying that what they are doing doesn't agree with scripture. They could believe that scripture teaches that microwaves are evil. Since I can point out that their belief is not supported in scripture, I can show them their error regardless of how much they believe it.

Couple things.  I understand the love part.   I also think it is good.
But this wisdom needs no god.  And facts point to there not being a god.


I agree that the wisdom needs no god, but the benefit of god transforming me and surpassing my mere niceness is that it allows god's love to fill me and then pour out from overflow.

But, the question is, how to you treat atheists?  Do you feel they could be correct?  Or are you sure the god of the bible exists?  How do you treat Muslims?  Jews?  Hindus?  Come and discuss your beliefs and consider ours. 

I treat atheist with kindness and respect. Yes, I acknowledge that they might be right. Am I sure that the god of the bible exists? I'm only aware that the bible pointed me toward an experience that has transformed me. I do consider your beliefs and will treat you, as well as followers of other religions, with the respect that Christ modeled for me in scripture..

 
The above is my conviction and opinion. I could be wrong.

"We are all Fundamentalist- just about different issues."

Offline lotanddaughters

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 626
  • Darwins +49/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • Artist: Simon Vouet (1633)
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2013, 07:32:57 PM »
 
Not all christians have the more loving, others-centric view.  For Instance:



Their behavior is abhorrent.

"But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you." -Deuteronomy 22:20-21(NASB)

This is one of many abhorrent laws found in the Bible. The Bible claims that these laws were decreed by God.

Why not simply throw out the Bible? You would still be free to pick and choose the characteristics of your desired God, without all the baggage that the Bible brings to discussions like these.

Enough with your bullshit.
. . . Mr. Friday . . . that post really is golden.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6777
  • Darwins +821/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2013, 07:44:26 PM »

Since god no longer does anything, what is he for?  :?

In my experience, god absolutely continues to do the spiritual things god said he/she would do. Again, not what we deem god should do, but what god has promised to do.  He/she has, over the years made me more loving and a more others-centric person. I can recognize that god has developed in me a desire to help others that surpasses my own natural benevolent inclinations. I can acknowledge that I could be wrong about this, but I can no more deny that it is happening to me than I can convince myself that I fairly won a race when I know I cheated.

Hmmm, as I matured, I became more loving and other-centric too. More sensitive to others as well. And far more dashing, though balding. But baldness, like heros, run in my family.  ;D

And I've been an atheist since I was 11. Go figure.



Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1848
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Another rationalization for you [#2766]
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2013, 07:46:08 PM »
DoctorLivingston, Welcome to the forum. Please read the forum rules and make sure to learn how to properly use the quote function. You must copy a person's quote tag like this:

quote author=DoctorLivingston link=topic=25559.msg586760#msg586760 date=1386027989 (with the square brackets around it) and then use this:

/quote (with square brackets around it) at the end of what you are quoting. Then type your responses afterwards.

Example (see code after clicking reply):

I treat atheist with kindness and respect. Yes, I acknowledge that they might be right. Am I sure that the god of the bible exists? I'm only aware that the bible pointed me toward an experience that has transformed me. I do consider your beliefs and will treat you, as well as followers of other religions, with the respect that Christ modeled for me in scripture..

Unfortunately, personal life changes are no indication that anything supernatural caused those changes. Lots of people have life changes for lots of different reasons (nearly all religions claim this), and unfortunately (as is so often the case with religious people) many folks naively accept one specific interpretation of a said experience because of what they were told (aka - they were primed for belief beforehand out of emotion). Do you think that basing your entire life upon a self-diagnosed subjective personal experience and then defending one specific interpretation of an alleged holy book (b/c of that said experience) is wise? With the amount of human error that is demonstrable in the world, why would you grab onto a subjective experience which you likely were already prepped for by our culture? Shouldn't you practice a little bit better critical thinking than that?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 07:51:09 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan