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Offline idontknow

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Thoughts on the homepage
« on: October 02, 2013, 01:37:20 AM »
Greetings all. It's been a while since I've posted here. I kind of forgot the site existed until I got a friendly happy birthday email a few days ago. Now then, I'm sure some of my thoughts below have been said more or less by others before on this site. But we all know it's a lot more fun to start a new thread and keep things fresh. They're mostly first impressions all over again, as you can tell.

As always, please be civil (I'd expect nothing less), and I will do the same.

Quote from homepage:
"Why won't God heal amputees?" - The most important question that we can ask about God

My response:
Why is that the most important question?

Quote from homepage:
Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important questions you can ask yourself.

My response:
Again, why is this a less important question than why he won't heal amputees?

Quote from homepage:
If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money and pray in our schools. We should focus our society on God and his infallible Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.

On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a complete illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. Belief in God is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads a significant portion of the population to be delusional.

My response:
Is the opposite of having everlasting souls pointlessness? Do Christianity, Judaism, and Islam teach the same God in the first place? Why only mention the Bible in the first paragraph and then mention Judaism (notwithstanding the Old Testament) and Islam in the second paragraph? False dichotomies are involved here.

Quote from homepage:
But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or imaginary?

My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

Quote from homepage:
Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"

My response:
If God is real, he should be discernible to people living in all ages. Why is this age more important than any previous age, just because it happens to be the present?

Quote from homepage:
If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to understand the true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?" Start your exploration here.

My response:
What if I'm not intelligent? Does that matter? Shouldn't unintelligent people be able to discern the existence of God [or not] also?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 07:28:03 AM »
Greetings all. It's been a while since I've posted here. I kind of forgot the site existed until I got a friendly happy birthday email a few days ago. Now then, I'm sure some of my thoughts below have been said more or less by others before on this site. But we all know it's a lot more fun to start a new thread and keep things fresh. They're mostly first impressions all over again, as you can tell.

As always, please be civil (I'd expect nothing less), and I will do the same.

Quote from homepage:
"Why won't God heal amputees?" - The most important question that we can ask about God

My response:
Why is that the most important question?


Because "healing" is the most commonly claimed miracle supposedly demonstrating this god's love and existence. Has been for more than a thousand years.

It is a prayer that is not for someone to be more than average(not a wish for superpowers)
It is not a selfish or petty prayer(not having the prettiest dress at the prom or winning a sporting event)
It is distinguishable from random chance(recovering from cancer or heart problems)

As such, while it does nothing to disprove Pagan gods, or a Deist god, it is very strong evidence that the God of the Bible, interventionist and all loving, does not exist.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nam

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 07:31:37 AM »
Idontknow,

Do you realize how boring you are? Get interesting already.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline jetson

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 07:45:15 AM »
Seems to me that you should probably sum up your ideas and present them, rather than leave us with such open-ended "why" questions.  BTW, the author of the home page does not participate in the forum.

WWGHA is an important question because it is abundantly clear that many people believe that a god actually changes human physiology and "heals" as a result of prayer.  Oddly though, this god NEVER heals amputees.  Can you tell us why that might be the case?

We do live in modern times, where we have learned that lightning is not a weapon of a god, and that our planet revolves around one of many trillions of trillions of stars (this planet is not special).  We know how species have come to be over time, we have fossil records, and mountains of data that show the evolution of life.  We know, with great certainty, that there was no flood that covered all of the world's tallest mountains.  I could go on...

It is also VERY important to ask whether a god exists.  People have been using their god and all of it's baggage (rules, doctrines, etc.) to control others, and to legislate morality, and to oppress human rights and freedoms.  IT is far beyond time to put a full stop to this nonsense.  Let those who think they have a sky daddy to answer to when they die continue on their delusions in full bliss.  But do NOT let them heap their nonsense upon the rest of us.

Offline William

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 08:08:15 AM »
"Why won't God heal amputees?" - The most important question that we can ask about God

My response:
Why is that the most important question?

Missing limbs don't lie  ;)
Git mit uns

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 08:21:01 AM »
Quote from homepage:
Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"

My response:
If God is real, he should be discernible to people living in all ages. Why is this age more important than any previous age? just because it happens to be the present

and we can't change the past but we can change the future

edit bold and amendment to quote mine.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 08:26:35 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 08:34:22 AM »
Miracles happen in the Bible. Miracles that if they happened today would be proof that magic, including the possibility of divine intervention, was a real force in the world.

Similarly the Quaran has similar claims, as does the Iliad, as does the Books of the Dead, as does the Arthurian Legends, as does Aesop's Fables, and Grimm's Faerie Tales.

However, none of these unambiguous miracles occur in an age where people can check on wether or not they actually happened. Magic seems conspicuously absent in the presence of TV cameras; Divine intervention shies aways from being scientifically tested.

So just because it happened in a book isn't a convincing argument. WWGHA is a shorthand way of asking, since people purport God to do wondrous things even in the here and now and we are to bow are heads in praise for these blessings...why does the unambiguous miracle no longer occur? Specifically, in all the hospitals, in all the world, in the past 100 years, has not one amputee been healed through prayer? Why didn't Manna not fallen from heaven for the Jews starving to death in concentration camps? Why couldn't a Minister raise his hand and calmed the storm before the Tsunami near Sumatra? Why couldn't a priest part the waters in New Orleans during Katrina?

The conclusion is obvious, the stories of magic in the past are made up. Thus we need to treat those stories as unreliable sources of information. If they are unreliable on such tangible things such as 40 years of Wandering in a tiny desert...how much more unreliable are they when claiming things that cannot even be detected, like an afterlife?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline median

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 09:23:00 PM »

My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

Joshua 25:15 - ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...

lol


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 10:23:47 PM »

I'm not intelligent

just a summation.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline idontknow

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 11:46:33 PM »

I'm not intelligent

just a summation.

Lol. I may be educated, but most of the time I really don't think I'm all that intelligent.
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Offline idontknow

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 11:48:34 PM »

My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

Joshua 25:15 - ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...

lol

Right. Most people have already done that.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Offline idontknow

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 11:52:20 PM »
Because "healing" is the most commonly claimed miracle supposedly demonstrating this god's love and existence. Has been for more than a thousand years.
I would consider the creation of the universe out of nothing to be a much bigger miracle supposedly demonstrating God's existence and his appearance in the form of a man to suffer and die for all of humanity's sins to be a much bigger miracle supposedly demonstrating God's love. But I really don't know the frequency with which people claim miracle healings by comparison.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 12:06:54 AM »
Have you considered reading and responding to the content of Hatter's post?  It really does bear on the subject of this thread.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 04:03:20 AM »
I would consider the creation of the universe out of nothing to be a much bigger miracle

Exactly.  That's what Atum did.


My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

Joshua 25:15 - ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...

lol

Right. Most people have already done that.

Right.  I chose Atum.  A true god, not the made-up Yahweh that that falsehood "the Bible" claims is real.  All the evidence points clearly to Atum.   I urge you to worship HIM, now, before it is too late.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 04:10:18 AM »
Why is it the most important question?
Because depending on the answer, it proves god.

Why is it important whether or not god exists?

Because there is a bunch of crazy fools saying that he does exist, ruining the progress of man, then having the nerve that atheists will go to some "hell" unless they love god, who happens to be the single most assholish and immoral entity in all of literature.
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Offline hickdive

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2013, 04:26:19 AM »

Quote from homepage:
"Why won't God heal amputees?" - The most important question that we can ask about God

My response:
Why is that the most important question?

Because of all the things that could be asked of a god it is one that could unequivocally resolve its existence or otherwise.

Quote from homepage:
Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important questions you can ask yourself.

My response:
Again, why is this a less important question than why he won't heal amputees?

Because a god may or may not exist however, whether or not they are willing to intervene supernaturally is of critical importance as to whether we should pay any attention to them.

Quote from homepage:
If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money and pray in our schools. We should focus our society on God and his infallible Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.

On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a complete illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. Belief in God is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads a significant portion of the population to be delusional.

My response:
Is the opposite of having everlasting souls pointlessness? Do Christianity, Judaism, and Islam teach the same God in the first place? Why only mention the Bible in the first paragraph and then mention Judaism (notwithstanding the Old Testament) and Islam in the second paragraph? False dichotomies are involved here.

Yes, they do; you really should know this. The author of the video was brought up in a predominantly christian society and, since that is the society he is most familiar with then it is reasonable to address his remarks principally to that society.

Quote from homepage:
But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or imaginary?

My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

Because many people want to impose their interpretation of the “word of god” others.
Clearly if they cannot demonstrate the existence of their deity then it undermines their claims of authority to do so.
Quote from homepage:
Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"

My response:
If God is real, he should be discernible to people living in all ages. Why is this age more important than any previous age, just because it happens to be the present?
Because now we have unprecedented access to information – to say that you currently have insufficient data to determine the existence of a god or not nowadays is, frankly, foolish whereas up until the mid to late 20th century the amount of data easily accessible to the individual was limited.

Quote from homepage:
If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to understand the true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?" Start your exploration here.

My response:
What if I'm not intelligent? Does that matter? Shouldn't unintelligent people be able to discern the existence of God [or not] also?

It is a question designed to provoke thought in intelligent people. An unintelligent person won’t understand the question. We get numerous examples via the mailbag of unintelligent people failing to understand the question.
There might well be a simple question you can ask unintelligent people in order to get them to address the same ideas however the author hasn’t chosen to ask one; intead he’s chosen to ask “Why won’t god heal amputees?”



Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2013, 07:13:05 AM »
Because "healing" is the most commonly claimed miracle supposedly demonstrating this god's love and existence. Has been for more than a thousand years.
I would consider the creation of the universe out of nothing to be a much bigger miracle supposedly demonstrating God's existence and his appearance in the form of a man to suffer and die for all of humanity's sins to be a much bigger miracle supposedly demonstrating God's love. But I really don't know the frequency with which people claim miracle healings by comparison.

Yes, they would be. If they could be distinguishable from fiction. The latter is very much not distinguishable from fiction, and the former does not have any implication beyond the deist god, or a god of the gaps. Which also is an appeal to ignorance.


But the last sentence makes me think you are being disingenuous. You don't hear people saying "I will pray for you" or "I was healed" or the expression "faith healer?," because they are extremely commonplace.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline median

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 03:24:41 PM »

My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

Joshua 25:15 - ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...

lol

Right. Most people have already done that.


Then why did you ask the question in the first place if you already knew the answer? It seems you were (at first) looking to question why anyone should make a decision about whether your theology is rational or not (which it is not) and then later retract it by saying, "Right." So which is it? Is a conclusive decision necessary or not? Do you agree with the homepage here, or not? Your OP just sounds like trolling.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online Foxy Freedom

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 05:18:00 PM »

I would consider the creation of the universe out of nothing to be a much bigger miracle supposedly demonstrating God's existence.

I would consider a universe from nothing as quite a surprising proof of god, since the bible says that god created the universe in a different way. See my thread called - in the beginning was what?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25495.0.html
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 06:09:46 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2013, 11:25:55 PM »
Quote
Why is it important whether or not god exists?

Because asshats like yourself keep telling little children they'll burn forever if they don't believe in your version of god; because asshats like yourself keep telling people we need prayer in schools and parliament and oil rigs; because asshats like yourself keep knocking on my door and asking me if I know about the word of their god; because asshats like you preach love and tolerance and yet won't let loving, consenting, same-sex couples get married; because asshats like you try to take away women's freedom to do what they want with their own bodies...

...need I go on?  >:(
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 01:44:42 AM »
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline median

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 01:38:43 PM »

I would consider the creation of the universe out of nothing to be a much bigger miracle supposedly demonstrating God's existence.

I would consider a universe from nothing as quite a surprising proof of god, since the bible says that god created the universe in a different way. See my thread called - in the beginning was what?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25495.0.html


Occam's Razor shaves off the bigger miracle ;) and thus we are left with a perfectly natural existence. Thank you universe!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 02:43:37 PM »
Benny,

That was from from 12 days ago. I've said worse in the past week. Couldn't find those?

Idiot.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2013, 01:59:03 PM »
Quote from homepage:
"Why won't God heal amputees?" - The most important question that we can ask about God

My response:
Why is that the most important question?

Are you also suspicious of characters who answer questions with questions? I know I am. The point is that a child of 9 should be able to work that one out.

Quote
Quote from homepage:
Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important questions you can ask yourself.

My response:
Again, why is this a less important question than why he won't heal amputees?

I am surprised that you cannot work that out.

May I ask you to answer the first question? The only reasonable answer is “The first question is answered to elicit the answer to the second question."

Quote
Quote from homepage:
If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money and pray in our schools. We should focus our society on God and his infallible Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.

On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a complete illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. Belief in God is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads a significant portion of the population to be delusional.

My response:
Is the opposite of having everlasting souls pointlessness? Do Christianity, Judaism, and Islam teach the same God in the first place? Why only mention the Bible in the first paragraph and then mention Judaism (notwithstanding the Old Testament) and Islam in the second paragraph? False dichotomies are involved here.

I am disappointed that you claim some education after the age of 14. Judaism and Islam are not mentioned. (Please re-read and check.) TheJudeo-Christian god serves as an example for all gods.

Quote
Quote from homepage:
But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or imaginary?

My response:
Why is a conclusive decision necessary?

I agree with you here. In all other matters of opinion, the balance of probabilities is the real test.

However, experience has shown that the religious are genuinely deluded and refuse to be pinned down when contradictions within their texts or with known reality are mention, they close their ears and go “La-la-la” etc.

A conclusive proof, in one line would be superb. It would be spoken and each religious person would say, “Thank you. All these years, the voices I hear in my head are nothing more than mental aberrations.

Quote
Quote from homepage:
Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"

My response:
If God is real, he should be discernible to people living in all ages. Why is this age more important than any previous age, just because it happens to be the present?

I am beginning to doubt that you have ever though to ask any questions at all. To all those, throughout all of history who have ever questioned the existence of any god, it has always been “now.”

As such your question is remarkably meaningless.

Quote
Quote from homepage:
If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to understand the true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?" Start your exploration here.

My response:
What if I'm not intelligent? Does that matter? Shouldn't unintelligent people be able to discern the existence of God [or not] also?

Well, theoretically, they should. Any god should be able to communicate unambiguously with his/her subjects. However, one trait of gods is they, to a deity, have failed. And not only failed badly, but to such an extent that wars are regularly fought over whose invisible best friend is the better.

I do hope that those few thoughts have helped you.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 03:33:32 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2013, 08:30:33 PM »
Would a more important question be  "Why does God love Whitey so much"
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Shaffy

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Re: Thoughts on the homepage
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2013, 08:41:49 PM »
Why are you answering questions with questions..... :-\

-Shaffy
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 08:43:55 PM by Shaffy »
We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it.

~ParkingPlaces