Author Topic: DTE: No Noah? No Christ  (Read 407 times)

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Offline screwtape

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DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« on: October 01, 2013, 11:47:25 AM »
This is an essay from former member DTE.  He originally posted it in the old forum.  I have saved it and am re-posting here.  Enjoy.
~Screwtape


No Noah? No Christ: Why Christians cannot claim metaphor and believe in Jesus.

This is why Christians cannot be allowed to disavow Noah, Jonah or other ridiculous stories and cling to their faith and belief in a risen, saving Christ: Jesus believed in them per the bible and the bible is the testimony of his resurrection. To paraphrase a silly bumpersticker: Know Noah, know Christ. No Noah, no Christ.


Lineage of Jesus
Quote
Luke 3:23b-24, 36-38 - He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph... the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

An historical Noah is necessary to the Christ of the Scripture ever existing, as the Bible names Noah as an ancestor of Jesus (Thanks to Atheist Devil for that one).

 
Jesus' use of Noah:
Quote
Matthew 24: 36-39 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Quote
Luke 17:26-27 - "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The historical events of the ark are used to explain what will be the historical circumstance of the second coming. Notice the as it was... so it will be structure. What happened then shows what will happen then.

Noah as an example of saving faith and justification by faith
Quote
Hebrews 11:1, 6-7 - Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see... And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.  By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Noah is going to be in heaven among the Christians with the same saving faith. (Notice also, Hebrews 11 is a litany of faithful Old Testament saints (including Abraham) each of whose historicity is demanded by Noah.

While he was dead, Christ preached to the people drowned in Noah's flood
Quote
1 Peter 3:18-20 - For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Notice first, that Peter is discussing Christ's saving work.

After Christ was put to death, he preached by the Holy Spirit to those disobedient souls that drowned in Noah's flood. If there are no such souls, there is no reason to believe Christ was ever put to death.

God's destruction of sinners and preservation of the righteous demonstrated by Noah
Quote
2 Peter 2: 4-5, 9 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; ... if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

God's real ability to rescue the godly and judge the wicked is evidenced in his historic, respective rescuing and judging of them. One such historical act of God which is adduced as a ground of God's faithfulness is Noah.

The flood is evidence of Christ's imminent return
Quote
2 Peter 3:3-7 - First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Scoffers, mocking Christ's "failure" to come (when in reality, he tarries in grace-- read veres 8ff, if you're interested) are deliberately ignorant of the 'fact' of the flood, that is evidence of the same word bringing another imminent judgement upon the world.

Without the historicity of Noah, there is no Christianity. Christians who pretend otherwise are dishonest, whether to themselves or to others.

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Offline Nick

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 01:01:46 PM »
Thanks for reposting that.  It is easy to see why they hold onto the myth so tightly.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online wright

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 01:11:02 PM »
Fascinating. A detail of Christian myth that I hadn't considered. Makes the fundies' insistence on the truth of Noah's story understandable, though the story remains no less silly. My thanks to DTE and you, PP.

Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 01:13:17 PM »
Next, are you going to tell me the Bible falls apart if Baalam's talking ass is made up?   :o
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nick

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 03:00:31 PM »
Next, are you going to tell me the Bible falls apart if Baalam's talking ass is made up?   :o
That could be real.  I remember seeing a talking horse on V...Mr. Ed.  And Francis the talking mule also.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 04:02:43 PM »
This is all very depressing. Yes, DTE puts forward a logical, cogent, referenced argument that seems water-tight. It is one single straw on a camel’s back and even the weight of all the other garbage in the Bible does not seem to approach even the weight to make the camel groan, let alone break its back.

Here is The Catechism of Trent as approved by the Pope

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed01.htm

Faith Excludes Doubt
The knowledge derived through faith must not be considered less certain because its objects are not seen; for the divine light by which we know them, although it does not render them evident, yet suffers us not to doubt them. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath himself shone in our hearts, that the gospel be not hidden to us, as to those that perish.

Faith Excludes Curiosity
From what has been said it follows that he who is gifted with this heavenly knowledge of faith is free from an inquisitive curiosity. For when God commands us to believe He does not propose to us to search into His divine judgments, or inquire into their reason and cause, but demands an unchangeable faith, by which the mind rests content in the knowledge of eternal truth. And indeed, since we have the testimony of the Apostle that God is true[1]; and every man a liar, and since it would argue arrogance and presumption to disbelieve the word of a grave and sensible man affirming anything as true, and to demand that he prove his statements by arguments or witnesses, how rash and foolish are those, who, hearing the words of God Himself, demand reasons for His heavenly and saving doctrines? Faith, therefore, must exclude not only all doubt, but all desire for demonstration.


This is what we are up against and not just in Catholicism: “Revel in your ignorance, obey us without question.”

And you thought North Korea was bad? North Korea sometimes changes its mind or shows some discretion.

I remember the poster Maggie [the Opinionated] who had swallowed the Pope’s stuff hook, line and sinker but who stated that she did not believe in Adam and Eve, despite the fact that she swore to believe every word of the Catechism that states: http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed02.htm

“When Adam had departed from the obedience due to God and had violated the prohibition, […] he fell into the extreme misery of losing the sanctity and righteousness in which he had been placed,”

The true brainwashed have little difficulty reconciling or ignoring the obvious.
 1. Do you smell a circular argument?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 04:04:20 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Quesi

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 05:05:26 PM »
It is really so inconceivable to me.  We have this story of a god who commits genocide.  Beyond genocide.  A god who destroys all life, except for one family and a pair of animals.  No sci fi story could have a more evil villain.  And yet, we decorate our children's bedrooms with images of this horrible, horrible story. 


Offline rev45

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 08:07:16 PM »
^My grandmother has a wooden ark toy.  My 3 year old likes to tell me when she plays with it "the elephant is driving the boat dad".
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2013, 12:43:15 PM »
And the thing is that the Ark was never a boat. It was a box. Early drawings make this quiet clear and it also explains why, in the Bible, the dimensions are given in the way that you would given them when describing a box.[1]

See this picture of the Ark by Hans Holbein the Younger (fl. 16th c.)


This is all stolen from "The Epic of Gilgamesh" that the Jews learned whilst in Exile.

See also "The Ark of the Covenant" - a box.
 1. 15 and this [is] that which thou dost with it: three hundred cubits [is] the length of the ark, fifty cubits its breadth, and thirty cubits its height;

16 a window dost thou make for the ark, and unto a cubit thou dost restrain it from above; and the opening of the ark thou dost put in its side, -- lower, second, and third [stories] dost thou make it.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 12:48:47 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2013, 04:18:35 PM »
When I was a kid we had to drive across the US in a compact car with all of our belongings, five people and a large dog.  In winter. Let me tell you, the smell was not fun.

The ark would be a big stinking sealed up floating methane bomb.  &)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 04:21:33 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: DTE: No Noah? No Christ
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2013, 04:30:18 PM »
Smokers lose the scent of what they're smoking over long periods of time. The same goes for those who do not bathe for long periods of time[1]. Sadly, that doesn't go for those around them.

A little bit of trivia.

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 1. they can't smell themselves
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