Author Topic: 4 year old [#2763]  (Read 1823 times)

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Online pianodwarf

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4 year old [#2763]
« on: September 29, 2013, 02:00:09 AM »
Dear editorial team,
Thank you so much for an interesting and very informative site, which I have enjoyed reading very much. The points you raise are highly relevant ,presented with commendable clarity, and have helped me a great deal.
My only concern was the part where the writer described the death of the family hamster. I was aghast at the apparent lack of compassion for this child when she was told that after death she would be eaten by worms! This of course is the truth, however truth without compassion can often be aggression. I wonder what damage may have been incurred as she attempts to come to terms with this information, with only a developing child's understanding. I hope she has not suffered any psychological damage.
Anyway, thank you again for a superb site. I will recommend this to friends.
 
                      [name removed]
 
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 07:11:08 AM »
She probably will avoid fishing. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline neopagan

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 08:42:00 AM »
Yeah that was mean... I guess it would have been kinder to tell her she would burn in hell for all eternity with the majority of people who have ever lived?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nick

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 09:03:23 AM »
Yeah that was mean... I guess it would have been kinder to tell her she would burn in hell for all eternity with the majority of people who have ever lived?
Should have used Legos...right Neospan? ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline neopagan

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 09:07:12 AM »
works for me... I love a good worm-eaten minifig
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Chronos

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2013, 09:20:34 AM »
My only concern was the part where the writer described the death of the family hamster. I was aghast at the apparent lack of compassion for this child when she was told that after death she would be eaten by worms! This of course is the truth, however truth without compassion can often be aggression. I wonder what damage may have been incurred as she attempts to come to terms with this information, with only a developing child's understanding. I hope she has not suffered any psychological damage.

The truth is the truth. Telling the kid something that isn't true just causes embarrassment for the kid later when he/she repeats something that is not true and gets ridiculed for it by his/her classmates. Then the kid comes home crying because you told him/her something that isn't true and caused them embarrassment.

What kind of psychological damage does that cause?
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Nam

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 11:51:47 AM »
Some people are cremated.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 08:01:11 PM »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »
Kids usually handle the truth better than most adults want them to. We like it better when we think they are innocent. And adults often handle the truth far worse than kids would ever suspect. They like us better when they think we know everything.

But that is minor. It isn't the truth that bothers us around here. Its that other stuff people come up with.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 10:07:57 PM »
I agree with the letter writer.  Imagine telling a child that their beloved pet would be eaten by worms after being buried - can you say nightmare fuel, especially for a four year old?  There's no real need for that much truth for a very young child.

Instead, tell children that burying their pet will help to fertilize the soil and make grass and flowers grow.  This is also true, but it sounds far better than telling them that it will be eaten by worms.

Offline wright

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 10:22:46 PM »
^^^Seconded. There are other ways to handle the subject that don't require lying. Something like: "All living things are constellations of atoms. When we die, the constellations lose their shape, but the atoms stay the same; they just move around. Some go into the water, some the air, some into other living things. So in a way when we die, parts of us become all kinds of different things and go to many different places."

Or this line from the comic book adaptation of Jonny Quest: "All I know is that in the end, we're energy. And energy can't be destroyed, it can only change from one form into another."
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 02:57:04 AM »
And if you go theist on the kid ...
"Everything that dies goes to heaven and heaven is a wonderful place where everything is good and happy"
you sometimes get a reply along the lines of "hey, I want to die and go to heaven!"

erm ... yeah ... no psychological damage there.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline attie.koekies

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 06:45:33 AM »
Would it be better if we would mention that a lion, the king of the jungle, will eat the remains? It sounds a lot more glorifying ;) Do kids have the same problem with worms that we as adults could have? My boy had his silkworms on his tongue this morning - literally - he (6) is so proud - they started to spin and he fed them and cleaned their box every day. Just a thought.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2013, 12:20:39 PM »
The thing about children is that they see things as they are. If you tell them that the hamster is dead and, if buried will be eaten, then the child is happy with that. The child has seen the dead hamster.

The OP imagines that she were 4 but she is not. Children are not particularly bothered by death as they aren't bothered by most things that they have not previously experienced. We shelter them from too much.

Bury the hamster, after a few months, dig it up and wash the bones - look at the skeleton, see how there are parallels with our skeleton. A kid doesn't mind... unless an adult has taught him/her that it is all "horrible and frightening".
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline neopagan

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 07:41:00 PM »
 I went to the funeral of a six year old a few years ago who died of leukemia. It was horrible for the adults who showed up with their kids who knew her. Th  parents all see their own child in the coffin and it crushes them.  The kids were not freaked out at all...
 This was back when I was a believer and everyone went on about heaven and  the kids bought it too, since their parents sqid t they believed it. However, none of those kids were bothered by death - they did not get the baggage or full comprehension adults have of it.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 09:30:42 PM »
I do think that personally I developed a fear...a paranoia, almost, of death very early on. Not sure where it sprang from, really. The only real thing I can think of which might have brought it a little bit closer was that my mother had a premature baby who died when I was about four, and I think that was probably about the time that I learned that I'd had a twin sister who also died at birth (we were both premature, but I happened to make it). I really don't remember much of what I either understood or was told at that time, but I do recall that since the time I was about six or seven, I would lie awake in cold sweats at night, thinking about the fact that just by my being alive, there was no way to avoid dying someday, and the concept that at that point a switch would be turned off, leaving me unable to think or to experience anything ever again just freaked me out. I suppose it's mostly just a matter of personality, though. Many kids could probably take it all completely in stride, but for whatever reason, I could not.

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2013, 11:51:56 AM »
Speaking from experience. When I was little our cat died. The bully that lived on our street did in fact say something like my cat was being eaten by bugs in the dirt, and I was terrified and heartsick.  I was inconsolable for days. I still remember how upset I was to this day.  I'm not saying I needed to hear my cat was "going to heaven" - but I sure as hell didn't need that graphic explanation.

I love what jaimehlers said:

"Instead, tell children that burying their pet will help to fertilize the soil and make grass and flowers grow.  This is also true, but it sounds far better than telling them that it will be eaten by worms."

I also had a cousin die when I was in elementary school.  He was a couple of years younger than me.  I did not take that in stride. It tore me apart.  I am not sure where people are getting the idea that kids aren't affected by this stuff.  Maybe I was a glaring exception.



"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 01:09:00 PM »
Quote
I also had a cousin die when I was in elementary school.  He was a couple of years younger than me.  I did not take that in stride. It tore me apart.  I am not sure where people are getting the idea that kids aren't affected by this stuff.  Maybe I was a glaring exception.

It's likely that in both your situations you were much older than four. In the case of the bully, s/he was deliberately using terms in a way to upset you.  I'm betting that if your parents had given you the same information they would have done so kindly instead of tauntingly, and you would have taken it much better.

Your grief at your cousin's death was over the loss, not necessarily about what was happening to his body after burial, uless it was leftover horror at the way your bully had taunted you over the cat.

I don't remember learning about death, but I do know that by the time I was eight I knew I wanted to be cremated. I understood decomposition, and wanted no part of it. Even though at the time I was a believer, I had just been taught you got a new body in heaven, but I didn't want this one to get all rotten and gross.

Now I don't much mind about rotting after death, but I still want to be cremated because it's cheaper and my corpse won't be taking up a spot in the ground for ages after I've died.

Offline Jag

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 01:32:13 PM »
I don't remember learning about death, but I do know that by the time I was eight I knew I wanted to be cremated. I understood decomposition, and wanted no part of it. Even though at the time I was a believer, I had just been taught you got a new body in heaven, but I didn't want this one to get all rotten and gross.

Now I don't much mind about rotting after death, but I still want to be cremated because it's cheaper and my corpse won't be taking up a spot in the ground for ages after I've died.

Ditto. I grew up smack dab in the middle of the intersection of old forest and Lake Superior in northern Minnesota. Saw plenty of dead critters in the woods where we spent all of our free time playing and was pretty put-off at the idea of burial and concluded pretty young that cremation was a much better plan. I was kind of surprised to discover a few years later that at least some flavors of xtians are vehemently opposed to cremation and view it as defiling the body and dooming yourself to .... I'm actually not sure what the end result was supposed to be, I suspect it disgusted me so much I put it entirely out of my mind. In any case that was about the same time I was starting to understand the idea of waste and it's consequences and I realized that the idea of burial in an enclosed protected box seemed really, really selfish. I've never been able to shake that association.

I'm a registered donor and my end of life wishes are in writing and have been discussed with my BF and our kids: Donate whatever is useful to whomever can make use of it, and if there is anything left over, burn it. Play my favorite music at my memorial service, have good beer available, and tell funny stories. Donate to causes I care about if a gesture is appropriate or desired. The End.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 01:44:39 PM »
Quote
In any case that was about the same time I was starting to understand the idea of waste and it's consequences and I realized that the idea of burial in an enclosed protected box seemed really, really selfish. I've never been able to shake that association.

I'm a registered donor and my end of life wishes are in writing and have been discussed with my BF and our kids: Donate whatever is useful to whomever can make use of it, and if there is anything left over, burn it. Play my favorite music at my memorial service, have good beer available, and tell funny stories. Donate to causes I care about if a gesture is appropriate or desired. The End.

I've told my husband that I don't even want a service. Torch the corpse and if people want to gather just have an open house where people can eat some cheese and crackers, tell him "sorry she died" and be done. I figure I spent less than 2k on hosting my wedding, why should my death cost more?  Then, I'm a bit of a cheapskate.

I was a bit surprised to find my mother feels the same way, and relieved too.  Unless her husband is still alive when she passes, it'll be me in charge of arrangements. I'm relieved at not having to obey last wishes that seem wasteful to me. Not that I'm looking to inherit any money from her and feel she'd be wasting what is "mine". I know some might see it that way.

Offline Nam

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 01:54:30 PM »
Quote
In any case that was about the same time I was starting to understand the idea of waste and it's consequences and I realized that the idea of burial in an enclosed protected box seemed really, really selfish. I've never been able to shake that association.

I'm a registered donor and my end of life wishes are in writing and have been discussed with my BF and our kids: Donate whatever is useful to whomever can make use of it, and if there is anything left over, burn it. Play my favorite music at my memorial service, have good beer available, and tell funny stories. Donate to causes I care about if a gesture is appropriate or desired. The End.

I've told my husband that I don't even want a service. Torch the corpse and if people want to gather just have an open house where people can eat some cheese and crackers, tell him "sorry she died" and be done. I figure I spent less than 2k on hosting my wedding, why should my death cost more?  Then, I'm a bit of a cheapskate.

I was a bit surprised to find my mother feels the same way, and relieved too.  Unless her husband is still alive when she passes, it'll be me in charge of arrangements. I'm relieved at not having to obey last wishes that seem wasteful to me. Not that I'm looking to inherit any money from her and feel she'd be wasting what is "mine". I know some might see it that way.

I've been telling my family for years (some friends) and here online, just, when I die, take my body out in the woods and set the fucker on fire.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jag

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 01:57:57 PM »
Assuming we still owe this property when I die, I'm expecting the "memorial" will be held here - in the ManCave if winter or the backyard if otherwise. Whatever happens after I die doesn't have as much to do with me as it does with those I'm leaving behind - I was asked to concede on a service by my kids and agreed as soon as I thought about it for a few seconds. I understand the need for something to mark closure. I never even thought about the cost - it's another reason to stick to my plan though.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 02:04:11 PM »
I also had a cousin die when I was in elementary school.  He was a couple of years younger than me.  I did not take that in stride. It tore me apart.  I am not sure where people are getting the idea that kids aren't affected by this stuff.  Maybe I was a glaring exception.

Well, first of all, obviously kids don't have some sort of mild generic response that we can slough off. But kids, in general, handle death better than adults give them credit for. Adults tend to want to protect children from the concept in the first place, and hence the kids get the crap scared out of them once they realize that bad things happen.  But if adults are upfront about death from the git-go, kids can generally do a pretty good job of handling the realities of death.

And you're still supposed to grieve when a cousin or someone else close to you dies. But if you are a kid who has not been protected, you don't have to deal with the double shock of a death and finding out about what death really is at the same time.

We don't even let kids go down tall slides any more, which means that it is harder for them to learn how to overcome fear and feel good about accomplishing something. Which is a triliion times worse than a skinned knee or a bruise. Kiddiehood is supposed to prepare us for life, not pretend to protect us from it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 02:20:53 PM »
Quote
It's likely that in both your situations you were much older than four. In the case of the bully, s/he was deliberately using terms in a way to upset you.  I'm betting that if your parents had given you the same information they would have done so kindly instead of tauntingly, and you would have taken it much better.

I don't think there is a kind way to phrase "your cat is being eaten by worms."  I think even said in the nicest way, it would have been upsetting to me - of course not to the extent of the bully - but it's just not something to say to a little child, in my opinion.  I still prefer the explanation of it helping fertilize the grass and such.

Quote
Your grief at your cousin's death was over the loss, not necessarily about what was happening to his body after burial, uless it was leftover horror at the way your bully had taunted you over the cat.

Yes, I agree.  I had interpreted earlier posts to mean that kids handle death better than adults - death in general, and not what happens after;  I'm saying I don't think the assumption can be made that kids handle death better. We are in agreement that my grief was over the loss.  Had nothing to do with what happened after, which I didn't even think about - it was the loss that hurt.


"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 02:37:17 PM »

We don't even let kids go down tall slides any more, which means that it is harder for them to learn how to overcome fear and feel good about accomplishing something. Which is a triliion times worse than a skinned knee or a bruise. Kiddiehood is supposed to prepare us for life, not pretend to protect us from it.

I agree 100% on this. Our kids are older now (11, 13, 16), but we never did the helicopter parent thing (the hovering).  We made fun of parents (well, not to their face, lol) that never let their precious little fragile plants do fun stuff that, yes, might be a bit scary or risky. I'm very nurturing, don't get me wrong - but we instilled in our kids a sense of independence from the youngest age.  It shows now, in that they can basically run our entire household (including the budget) without our help. 

Also they are not freaked out easily.  When I homeschooled my oldest, my youngest was "along for the ride."  We did REAL science. Not that worksheet crap.  Anything he wanted.  We had a biology teacher friend who taught him a lot and gave him tons of resources.  Things I would consider gross to be honest (heh) but he LOVED it.  He especially loved studying insects.  I stayed far away from that but he got his little sister to love it too. To this day, if there is a rogue spider in the house, they will scoop it up and put it outside - they wouldn't dream of stomping it, lol (and yes they know how to ID a poisonous one).

On a somewhat similar note, my daughter (11) had two friends over last night to hang out and then go trick-or-treating.  She wanted to show them the TV show "Scare Tactics" - one of her favorites, which is quite hilarious (it's a prank show where someone gets the shit scared out of them).  It is not "R" rated by any means.  More like PG. Her friends could NOT handle it. It was very strange, they were petrified, even though my daughter tried to explain it was just actors - it was a prank, etc.  Finally we turned of the TV so they would calm down. WTF, lol.  &)

Or maybe our family is just weird.  :laugh:
 
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline neopagan

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2013, 04:01:47 PM »
^^^ Sounds like you have the right idea there RLeo.

  I usually dissect a few thing with the kids each year at home - frogs, worms, fish, rats, various things we find in decent shape that the cats offer up on the back porch.  Later this year, they want to do a cat (we ordered it - I'm not volunteering one of ours  :'(). 
  They also like owl pellets[1].  When I first ordered those and brough them home, I thought my wife would puke - but they are pretty cool and you never really know what you'll find - kind of like cracking open the WWGHA mailbag!
 1. http://obdk.com/store/products.asp
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline RubyLeo

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2013, 04:13:54 PM »
^^^ Sounds like you have the right idea there RLeo.

  I usually dissect a few thing with the kids each year at home - frogs, worms, fish, rats, various things we find in decent shape that the cats offer up on the back porch.  Later this year, they want to do a cat (we ordered it - I'm not volunteering one of ours  :'(). 
  They also like owl pellets[1].  When I first ordered those and brough them home, I thought my wife would puke - but they are pretty cool and you never really know what you'll find - kind of like cracking open the WWGHA mailbag!
 1. http://obdk.com/store/products.asp

First of all, I'm happy to hear you aren't volunteering your own cat.  :laugh:

But that is a really cool thing to do for your kids! My son got to do a lot of dissecting as well. My daughter didn't flinch while watching. I was a bit more pukey about that.  ;D

I think opening up that world to kids is awesome.

Owl pellets are the bomb! Very cool stuff - they don't gross me out at all. Every fall we love to do midnight owl walks that a local nature center offers.
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true. "
~ Thomas Paine

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2013, 04:19:59 PM »
Quote
I thought my wife would puke - but they are pretty cool and you never really know what you'll find - kind of like cracking open the WWGHA mailbag!

Mom pellets!

Offline Betelnut

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Re: 4 year old [#2763]
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2013, 02:00:34 PM »
I didn't know you could order owl pellets!  What a cool idea!