Author Topic: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]  (Read 1226 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« on: September 29, 2013, 01:46:44 AM »
You recounted the story of a woman who was healed of rabies -  supposedly the first person ever documented in human history.  Then you claimed that God doesn't heal amputees, and concluded that God is imaginary.   Seems to me you have disproven your own theory. 

Jesus healed an amputee.  He healed the High Priest's servant, after Peter cut off his ear.   If he had not replaced the ear, Peter would have been arrested for attempted murder.   .Jesus also made whole many lepers, who undoubtedly had missing lips, ears, fingers, toes, etc.   Jesus may have made whole other amputees, but it is not recorded in scripture.    He brought Lazarus back from the dead, and said we could obtain the same miracles.

So why don't we see things like this in modern times?  Jesus repeatedly told his disciples obtaining miracles required faith.  His disciples healed some people, but not others.  Jesus said it was because of their lack of faith.   Apparently, when people are confronted with certain aflictions, they cannot drum up enough faith to receive the healing.   It becomes too hard to believe in God.   But believe we must. 

So does it occur to you that maybe modern day mankind, due to it's dependence on medical science, has lost faith in God, and therefore can't receive healing?   Or maybe it is because of people like you, who are doing your best to destroy people's faith.

Mabye now that we have a modern day record of a healing of rabies, others will have sufficient faith to believe that disease can be healed again.  Your alternative (disbelief in God) offers NOTHING to mankind.  It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?

[name removed]
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 02:37:08 AM »
You recounted the story of a woman who was healed of rabies -  supposedly the first person ever documented in human history.  Then you claimed that God doesn't heal amputees, and concluded that God is imaginary.   Seems to me you have disproven your own theory. 

Jesus healed an amputee.  He healed the High Priest's servant, after Peter cut off his ear.   If he had not replaced the ear, Peter would have been arrested for attempted murder.   .Jesus also made whole many lepers, who undoubtedly had missing lips, ears, fingers, toes, etc.   Jesus may have made whole other amputees, but it is not recorded in scripture.    He brought Lazarus back from the dead, and said we could obtain the same miracles.

So why don't we see things like this in modern times?  Jesus repeatedly told his disciples obtaining miracles required faith.  His disciples healed some people, but not others.  Jesus said it was because of their lack of faith.   Apparently, when people are confronted with certain aflictions, they cannot drum up enough faith to receive the healing.   It becomes too hard to believe in God.   But believe we must. 

So does it occur to you that maybe modern day mankind, due to it's dependence on medical science, has lost faith in God, and therefore can't receive healing?   Or maybe it is because of people like you, who are doing your best to destroy people's faith.

Mabye now that we have a modern day record of a healing of rabies, others will have sufficient faith to believe that disease can be healed again.  Your alternative (disbelief in God) offers NOTHING to mankind.  It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?

[name removed]

Rabies is not amputation. Not equivalent. No "disproving your own theory"

You belong to a tradition that has tales of big magic in the past but not now. You say modern people lack faith. People have enough faith to kill and die...but when something that would repeal the laws of physics...nope that faith is good enough. How amazingly indistinguishable from completely made up crap.

Whether or not our alternative offers no hope, well it doesn't on the surface. Yours does deliver hope...and a complete denial of reality. Ours embraces that no magic man is going to save you or anyone else, so if you want anything to get better, you have to make it so. And that mentality is the one that gets results, which is a lot better than a happy hope.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 04:04:20 AM »
Your alternative (disbelief in God) offers NOTHING to mankind.  It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?

Because it offers reality.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline hickdive

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 05:13:49 AM »
Three seconds of googling will show you countless examples of people who claim to have been cured of all sorts of maladies through their faith; all sorts except amputation.

Why is it that NO amputee has ever had a limb or digit through faith? Is there something uniquely wrong about amputees or their faith that your god will not cure them?

As for your example; using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning.
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 05:21:55 AM »
You recounted the story of a woman who was healed of rabies -  supposedly the first person ever documented in human history.  Then you claimed that God doesn't heal amputees, and concluded that God is imaginary.   Seems to me you have disproven your own theory. 

Well, only if you think that she just sat and prayed to be healed. But this requires ignoring all the medical science that helped her recover. You seem unable to consider the possibility that the woman's own immune system contributed to her recovery. Instead, you seem to think that some invisible sky-pixie did some magic, is that right?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline wright

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2013, 05:56:43 AM »
So does it occur to you that maybe modern day mankind, due to it's dependence on medical science, has lost faith in God, and therefore can't receive healing?   Or maybe it is because of people like you, who are doing your best to destroy people's faith.

Laughable. Oh yes, that horrible dependence. I may have misunderstood you. Did you really intend to make it sound like a bad thing? That science has in just a few generations wiped out smallpox, drastically reduced the death toll of other routine killers like polio, doubled the average human lifespan and risen to meet new challenges like AIDS... while there is yet to be a single unambiguous healing by prayer alone?

I'll take that success-in-action over any amount of prayer, thanks.

And atheism, despite its recent heightened visibility, is far more a symptom than a cause of the decline of religious faith. That decline has been going on for generations. It has more to do with the rise of education and the general standard of living worldwide than anything else.

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Your alternative (disbelief in God) offers NOTHING to mankind.  It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?
[name removed]

Correct, atheism offers no hope. But then, it has never made any claim to do so.

Religion does make such claims, and consistently fails to back them up with evidence. Not for an eternal paradise for the righteous or eternal torture for the damned, not for unambiguously answered prayers, not for the existence of a benevolent creator.

If you want hope, look to human effort. Human ingenuity. Human compassion. Human love. Human, human, human: all the way from birth to death, with no one but each other to lean on as we go.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 07:04:33 AM »
Yes, that mega church in Texas must not have had enough faith because they got measles as a result of not getting their kids the shots they needed.

Also, Jesus was a made up person so your accounts of amputee healings is also made up.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 07:07:39 AM »
So why don't we see things like this in modern times?  Jesus repeatedly told his disciples obtaining miracles required faith.  His disciples healed some people, but not others.  Jesus said it was because of their lack of faith.   Apparently, when people are confronted with certain aflictions, they cannot drum up enough faith to receive the healing.   It becomes too hard to believe in God.   But believe we must.

You are not faithful enough, you must be more faithful.

Can't you people come up with something less trite than "pray harder"?


So does it occur to you that maybe modern day mankind, due to it's dependence on medical science, has lost faith in God, and therefore can't receive healing?   

No.

What occurs to me is that with medical science we currently have 6-7 billion people living on the planet. There were never that many in Jesus' supposed lifetime or even subsequently as the Catholics told everyone to go forth, be fruitful -- MULTIPLY! What occurs to me is that 3 out of 10 women no longer die during childbirth, and at least in the Western World, 9 out of 10 women no longer bear 10-20 children during their lifetimes. What occurs to me is that we have rid ourselves of the small pox and polio viruses (just two among many). We can save someone during a heart attack, we can put cancer in remission -- hell, we even know what blood type you have so that we don't do something foolish like hook you up to a goat thinking you can share vital fluids.

You think we lack faith and that's why we have to rely on science. Really? Are you that mentally moribund?


Or maybe it is because of people like you, who are doing your best to destroy people's faith.

Not once in my life have I ever attempted to destroy someone's faith. I have always been live-and-let-live, unlike most Christians who have personally set out to destroy other's sensibilities by instilling fear and control. Christians routinely try to convert me. They knock on my door or leave little things hanging on the handle when I don't answer -- all of them trying to convert me to their faith. Look in the mirror -- you won't like what you see.

If you wish to come here and debate the existence of a god, then by all means you are going to get some negative feedback on your positive assertion that a God exists or that Jesus saves or that Mary was a virgin.

Do you not like the way I am responding to you now? As a point of comparison, you should examine how another accidental visitor, Anne, was handled by me in a thread about Catholicism. Anne did not accuse me of things as you have. She made her points in a polite way and I responded to them in a polite way, as well. Maybe you could learn some things from Anne.


Mabye now that we have a modern day record of a healing of rabies, others will have sufficient faith to believe that disease can be healed again.  Your alternative (disbelief in God) offers NOTHING to mankind.  It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?

Because hope has not gotten you anywhere at all.  HOPE didn't create the computer upon which you sent us your lovely thoughts. HOPE didn't create the software that allows the web to exist and transfer information. HOPE didn't create the electricity that you use to turn on a light bulb. HOPE didn't create safety procedures that allow you to take medications that alleviate your medical problems.

No, HOPE didn't do any of that. People who got off their knees and put their hands to work did all of that. They didn't have HOPE. They had DETERMINATION. Perhaps you should look up the word determinate and reflect upon your ... hope.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 08:28:35 AM by Chronos »
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »
So does it occur to you that maybe modern day mankind, due to it's dependence on medical science, has lost faith in God, and therefore can't receive healing?

Can I take it then, that you never rely on medical science for anything?  If you get in an accident, instead of calling 911, you'll just pray the pain away.


Why is it that god's power to heal is, apparently, dependent on whenever people "believe" in him or not?  Does he actually need to absorb "belief energy waves" in order to recharge himself?  God's really not very powerful then.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 10:45:34 AM »
Your alternative (disbelief in God) offers NOTHING to mankind.  It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?

Atheism is not an alternative to religion.  Religion is an alternative to reality.  The reality is that we are here, and we don't understand everything about our universe, and how it all came to be.  The fairy tale of religion comes from ignorance, and complete misunderstanding of reality, and that which we did not understand.  We have come a long way, but I would guess that we still don't understand as much as we have yet to learn.  But it is safe to say that there is no god at the helm of it all - based on the extreme lack of evidence...of course.

Even if some of our strongest theories like the Big Bang, and Evolution are overturned, they will not reveal a god.

Offline Nam

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 11:37:13 AM »
Can't these people ever come up with something new? They're starting to bore me.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Chronos

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2013, 11:47:37 AM »
They're not generally the creative, artsy types.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2013, 12:17:27 PM »
Can't these people ever come up with something new? They're starting to bore me.

-Nam

New? Kind of difficult to come up with something new when they are trying to say the bronze age was much better with its magic and faith and science is bad....while typing on a computer.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nam

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 12:37:53 PM »
True. But they could at least be inventive.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2013, 05:59:26 PM »
Some people still have total faith, my friend.

They go to a faith healer and stop taking their medicine. You can't find much more faith than that.

Then they Die From Their Illness and the faith healer laughs all the way to the bank.
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Offline Willie

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 09:11:32 PM »
That rabies story on the WWGHA website has long been in need of an update. Contrary to the claims of Christians, the story of Jeanna Giese is not an example of a prayer induced miracle. It is instead an example of a medical triumph, the product of human intellect and effort.

Dr. Rodney E. Willoughby, who treated Jeanna, had a hunch that putting Jeanna in an induced coma might keep her alive long enough for her immune system to produce antibodies to fight off the virus. It seems that rabies kills by disrupting brain function, which in turn causes many of the body's systems to malfunction, but apparently without physically destroying the patient's brain in the process. After 6 days, when she appeared to be making antibodies, she was brought out of the coma, and became the first person ever to survive rabies. She had to re-learn practically everything. How to eat, how to speak, how to walk. But she lived.

Dr. Willoughby's experimental treatment has come to be called the "Milwaukee Protocol", and has since saved several more lives. The survival rate is still pretty low (2 out of 25 using the original protocol, and 2 of 10 using a revised version), but it's more than zero, and that's better than what anything else, including prayer, ever accomplished.

Yes there was a prayer circle, and even the Dr. himself prayed, so I guess one could say that prayer AND a medical breakthrough saved her. In much the same way that prayer AND a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee at McDonald's.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa050382
http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/jeannagiese.html
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/medicalcenter/features/2010-2011/06/20110616_rabies-survivor.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol

Offline neopagan

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 09:46:25 AM »
If the Dr had sacrified a goat in the back room to Ba'al would believers have given Ba'al any credit? Hypocrites... :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nam

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 04:51:53 PM »
If the Dr had sacrified a goat in the back room to Ba'al would believers have given Ba'al any credit? Hypocrites... :)


Did they shiv the goat first?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 01:19:20 PM »
If the Dr had sacrified a goat in the back room to Ba'al would believers have given Ba'al any credit? Hypocrites... :)


Did they shiv the goat first?

-Nam

Man I do love me some goat curry and lentils.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nam

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 02:55:40 PM »
I like goat milk. Much better than bullmilk.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Irish

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Re: Why God doesn't heal amputees... [#2760]
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 07:31:52 PM »
You recounted the story of a woman who was healed of rabies -  supposedly the first person ever documented in human history.  Then you claimed that God doesn't heal amputees, and concluded that God is imaginary.   Seems to me you have disproven your own theory.

  • Rabies is a viral infection.  Amputation is not a viral infection.
  • Jeanna Giese was healed due to medical intervention with an experimental protocol and possibly due to a weak form of the rabies virus.

Quote
Jesus healed an amputee.  He healed the High Priest's servant, after Peter cut off his ear.   If he had not replaced the ear, Peter would have been arrested for attempted murder.   .Jesus also made whole many lepers, who undoubtedly had missing lips, ears, fingers, toes, etc.   Jesus may have made whole other amputees, but it is not recorded in scripture.    He brought Lazarus back from the dead, and said we could obtain the same miracles.

My copy of War of the Worlds tells of an alien invasion of Europe and the rise of the tripods with their horrifying heat guns and the struggle for survival.  It's a great story too.

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So does it occur to you that maybe modern day mankind, due to it's dependence on medical science, has lost faith in God, and therefore can't receive healing?   Or maybe it is because of people like you, who are doing your best to destroy people's faith.

I'd be willing to bet you five bucks that you still take antibiotics for a bacterial infection, chemotherapy for cancer, anticoagulants, or other medication prescribed by a doctor if you had a serious medical condition.

Quote
It offers no hope.   Why should anyone accept that?

As opposed to the false hope that religion offers?
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.