Author Topic: In the beginning was......WHAT ?  (Read 3067 times)

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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 02:28:53 PM »
Assuming that one can label all Christians as having the shared, common belief that there exists an entity in reality that is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and has any involvement in humanity, then I'm sorry to say that I'm in the camp that would label all Christians to be illogical, delusional, and wishful - at least with regards to the question of the existence of said entity.  The only justifications I have seen to accept the claim of this entity's existence all fall under either illogical argumentation or delusional/wishful thinking.

Your assumptions about Christians and your justification for it implies you have heard ALL Christians make ALL illogical or delusional arguments.  It would be more precise to say the Christians you have encountered have not given you any logical or non-delusional arguments to believe in God.
 
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There are some of us who think of our Christianity very logically, fact based.
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And that may very well be the case.  Present some of these facts and explain some of the logic and we'll go from there.

Fact: The universe had a beginning.  It is more probable or logical to think someone or something outside the universe caused its beginning then to think it just spontaneously began...that nothing can produce something.  No field of science would deny the Law of Causality except physicists when it comes to the issue of cosmology.

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It would be as though I labeled atheists as immoral.  One size fits all works no better for Christians than it does for atheists.
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The reason that it is inappropriate to label all atheists as immoral is because there isn't a shared basis of worldview that all atheists share that imply immorality.  Unless, of course, you believe that a lack in belief in the existence of god makes someone immoral.  Then we'd probably have the argument over whether a lack in belief in the existence of god necessarily implies immorality.  Likewise, I've now made the claim that belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving entity is delusional, illogical, or wishful.  If that belief is not shared amongst all Christians, then it would be inappropriate for me to label all Christians as being delusional, illogical, or wishful (at least in regards to the existence of said entity).  If I am wrong that belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving entity is delusional, illogical, or wishful, then it would be inappropriate for me to label all Christians as being delusional, illogical, or wishful (at least in regards to the existence of said entity).
I'm guessing the point of contention will be the latter, but I'd like to make sure about that because a label like 'Christian' is a very tricky thing.

Yes, you are correct my, our, point of contention would be around the latter.  In terms of atheists, I do not believe they are immoral.  I guess what I really believe is that they are unreasonable.  Logic and science is never going to prove either for or against the existence of God conclusively.  However, belief should be based on evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.  And even when such evidence has been presented, atheists still doubt.

Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 02:29:50 PM »
So where and when did this energy exist?

I mean..I am thinking about this site and its name.  You claiming that this energy exists outside of time and space would be like me claiming an amputee's leg has grown back...it just exists outside of this time and space.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:34:26 PM by Randyjp »

Offline Truth OT

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 02:33:36 PM »
Nothing seems in my mind to be no more than a concept that is impossible to replicate in reality. In other words, without using "qualifiers", there is no such thing as nothing.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 02:37:45 PM »
@Randyjp - Is an omnimax God a necessary ingredient for Christianity? I was under the impression that Christianity was Christ-centric and rested upon Jesus of Nazareth being God's 'son' and God's anointed one selected by God to rule as king of the mythical everlasting Kingdom of (the) Heaven(s).

Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 02:40:28 PM »
Nothing seems in my mind to be no more than a concept that is impossible to replicate in reality. In other words, without using "qualifiers", there is no such thing as nothing.
Truth I would agree with you to a point.  Nothing exists only in that there is something.  Without something there is not nothing.  Just like darkness.  We only know darkness because there is an absence of light.  If there was no light, there would be no darkness.  But we can still replicate darkness.

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 02:43:51 PM »
So where and when did this energy exist?

I mean..I am thinking about this site and its name.  You claiming that this energy exists outside of time and space would be like me claiming an amputee's leg has grown back...it just exists outside of this time and space.

The early universe was entirely energy. There is nothing magical about it. You have probably heard of the equation e=mc2 which tells you the ratio in which energy forms matter and matter forms energy.
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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2013, 02:45:14 PM »
@Randyjp - Is an omnimax God a necessary ingredient for Christianity? I was under the impression that Christianity was Christ-centric and rested upon Jesus of Nazareth being God's 'son' and God's anointed one selected by God to rule as king of the mythical everlasting Kingdom of (the) Heaven(s).

If by "omnimax" you mean, all knowing, all present, all powerful.  The answer is yes He/she being omnimax is a necessary ingredient for Christianity.  A Christian worldview sees all of history- both pre and post Christ- as God's unfolding story of His/her relationship with humanity.

Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2013, 02:47:08 PM »

The early universe was entirely energy. There is nothing magical about it. You have probably heard of the equation e=mc2 which tells you the ratio in which energy forms matter and matter forms energy.


So what you are telling me, is this energy that created the universe out of nothing already existed in the universe?  And my understanding of the theory of General Relativity it proves there has to be a beginning to the universe.  That at one point there was no time or matter or space, and then "BIG BANG" there was.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:59:00 PM by Randyjp »

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2013, 02:48:30 PM »
Hey, man. Go to the test area and figure out how everything works.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2013, 02:57:36 PM »
If by "omnimax" you mean, all knowing, all present, all powerful.  The answer is yes He/she being omnimax is a necessary ingredient for Christianity.  A Christian worldview sees all of history- both pre and post Christ- as God's unfolding story of His/her relationship with humanity.

Great. Having a clear defensible or falsifiable at least somewhat concrete definition of God is a good starting point that will allow us to put possible reality of a God-being to the test.

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2013, 02:59:14 PM »
So where and when did this energy exist?

It could be argued energy does not exist in that way.  A roller coaster at the top of the track has potential energy.  Where does it exist?  In the cars?  In the track?  In the gravity?  None of those.

When it goes down that first drop, the potential energy is converted to kinetic energy - the car, which has mass, also now has speed.  Where is the energy now?  In speed?  How can it be in speed?  In the car? 

As many people do, especially theists, you are combining words and ideas to form incoherent questions.  "Where does energy exist?" is kind of like asking "where is algebra?" or "what color is laughter?" or "What size is burglary?"  Just because you can put the words together in that combination does not mean they are meaningful.

Energy is an abstract concept we use to help us make predictions about how bodies move.  It is part of our map of reality.  And remember, the map is not the territory.  Just because it exists as an idea does not mean it is an object that exists in a place.

You claiming that this energy exists outside of time and space...

Nope.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2013, 02:59:17 PM »
Truth I would agree with you to a point.  Nothing exists only in that there is something.  Without something there is not nothing.  Just like darkness.  We only know darkness because there is an absence of light.  If there was no light, there would be no darkness. 
This line of thought seems to rest on a Zoroastrian concept: to everything there is an opposite. This is, of course, wrong. If you do not believe me, complete the following sentence: "Without strawberry jelly there would be no ................." (PS you cannot repeat "strawberry jelly." but if there were a word for "a lack of strawberry jelly", you would be able to use that word - there isn't so you can't. This does not mean that there is never a lack of strawberry jelly - as I found out tonight when I went to the cupboard.)

Or it could be so blindingly obvious it need not be stated, as there are no unicorns, and that is why there is no opposite to unicorns.

You probably mean "without <insert concept> there would be no word for it's opposite. Of course, there being a word for something does not necessarily mean that it exists.

Let us look at "We only know darkness because there is an absence of light." Isn't it better to say, "Darkness is an absence of light"? This is just the same but does not sound so profound. Thus "We only know darkness because there is an absence of light." are just the words of someone who is trying to appear profound.

The thing is we don't have words for concepts that we do not have. That is the real reason.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:04:07 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2013, 03:10:55 PM »

The early universe was entirely energy. There is nothing magical about it. You have probably heard of the equation e=mc2 which tells you the ratio in which energy forms matter and matter forms energy.


So what you are telling me, is this energy that created the universe out of nothing already existed in the universe?  And my understanding of the theory of General Relativity it proves there has to be a beginning to the universe.  That at one point there was no time or matter or space, and then "BIG BANG" there was.

The Big Bang WAS the beginning and there was no time, matter or space before that. There was no "before". The energy of the expanding universe condensed matter from energy in the ratio E=mc2.
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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2013, 03:16:47 PM »
Truth I would agree with you to a point.  Nothing exists only in that there is something.  Without something there is not nothing.  Just like darkness.  We only know darkness because there is an absence of light.  If there was no light, there would be no darkness. 
This line of thought seems to rest on a Zoroastrian concept: to everything there is an opposite. This is, of course, wrong. If you do not believe me, complete the following sentence: "Without strawberry jelly there would be no ................." (PS you cannot repeat "strawberry jelly." but if there were a word for "a lack of strawberry jelly", you would be able to use that word - there isn't so you can't. This does not mean that there is never a lack of strawberry jelly - as I found out tonight when I went to the cupboard.)

Graybeard, aren't you just talking about semantics when you say you can't use a term like "not Strawberry jelly".  If I decided to begin using the word plaglomeata as a word that meant "not Strawberry jelly" and I got enough other people to use that word for a long enough period of time, it would then be an acceptable word and would fit into your completion.  For everything there is an opposite.  In fact there are more than one opposite.  Everything has a myriad of things it is not.  There is no way you can define darkness without doing so in relation to light.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:31:08 PM by Randyjp »

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2013, 03:20:17 PM »
For everything there is an opposite. 

Nope.  What is the opposite of "of"?  Or Adjective?  Or Compound fracture?  That is nonsense.  The idea of opposites is for children.

In fact there are more than one opposite.

That kind of goes against what an opposite is, doesn't it?


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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2013, 03:23:20 PM »
^shhhh...you'll hurt his brain.

;)

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2013, 03:27:46 PM »

Fact: The universe had a beginning.  It is more probable or logical to think someone or something outside the universe caused its beginning then to think it just spontaneously began...that nothing can produce something.  No field of science would deny the Law of Causality except physicists when it comes to the issue of cosmology.


Whatever you think is likely or logical from daily experience is WRONG. Experiments show that the universe does not work according to daily experience. Even something as simple as light reflected from a pool of water shows non causality in nature.

This is the essential difference between a person of faith and person of reason.

Nature through experiments forces a person of reason to accept the way it is.

A person of faith forces nature to accept the way he says it is.
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Offline William

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2013, 03:38:08 PM »
The Big Bang WAS the beginning and there was no time, matter or space before that. There was no "before".

I honestly didn't know that was a settled question.
I was under the impression that we do not currently have a way to detect anything beyond the Big Bang.
Is there physics that says conclusively there wasn't a collapsing universe other side the Big Bang? (Like a wave passing through zero from negative to positive.)
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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2013, 03:43:03 PM »

In fact there are more than one opposite.
That kind of goes against what an opposite is, doesn't it?

Not really...here is the first definition of opposite: situated, placed, or lying face to face with something else or each other, or in corresponding positions with relation to an intervening line, space, or thing: opposite ends of a room.

There are infinite number of positions on an intervening line or space between the two ends
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:45:29 PM by Randyjp »

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »
The Big Bang WAS the beginning and there was no time, matter or space before that. There was no "before".

I honestly didn't know that was a settled question.
I was under the impression that we do not currently have a way to detect anything beyond the Big Bang.
Is there physics that says conclusively there wasn't a collapsing universe other side the Big Bang? (Like a wave passing through zero from negative to positive.)

The collapsing universe was modelled mathematically on a computer but the ever accelerating expansion of our universe shows that the idea of pulsating universes was not plausible. There are ways to directly test ideas of colliding and collapsing universes.
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Offline Jag

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2013, 03:51:53 PM »
Ooh, oohooh! This is one of my favorite concepts to explain. Randyjp, I'm going to have to make some assumptions about your understanding of what the BBT says, and in turn, I'll ask that you accept that my offered explanation assumes no god exists. I'm not even going to ask you to agree or disagree, I'm just going to ask you to consider this as a possibility (keeping in mind that I DO assume no gods exist). You seem reasonably intelligent so here it is:
Key points:
   1. Time is a concept, an idea, an abstract. It doesn’t exist in the way people often speak of it; for instance, no one ever “ran out of time”. At worst, one could run out of life, but time continues to pass, regardless of any individual’s participation, or lack thereof. It’s not an actual thing; it’s a way of explaining other things.
   2. Earth is a planet in the Milky Way galaxy, which is one galaxy of many (no, seriously, MANY) in the universe. For this conversation, we’re not going to include such theories as the multiverse – this one is enough for now.
With me so far? I'm assuming that none of that is controversial to you, and I’m sure that others who are far better equipped to dig into the fine points will correct any errors I make.

So:
If we can agree that black holes exist (an assumption of agreement here), and function as described by science - very generally: given enough time they absorb whatever is in their path - then follow that as far as it can take you.

Given enough time (and yes, I do take for granted that the universe is at least billions of years old), even black holes will be sucked in to other black holes.  Eventually, all matter that exists in the entirety of the universe gets sucked into a single immeasurably dense/intensely pressurized/mind-bendingly squished teenytinydot.
Can you guess what would happen next?

A big frickin’ bang, that’s what.

This universe is not the first universe created by a "big bang", it's just the current universe.The problem with trying to insist on a beginning is that it's all built on a concept - time -  that only exists to allow us to communicate about things related to it, like “yesterday”, or “next month” or “in ten years”. Or “many millions of years ago”. Or “one hundred twenty seven light years away”.

Without humans to come up with the concept of "time" in the first place, "beginning" is rendered meaningless. The "beginning" described by the Big Bang Theory is an explanation that fits the empirical evidence we've amassed to date, and the extra bit that I pointed out above fits as well and invalidates the entire idea of beginning.

I also want to be very clear that in no way am I presenting this as a fact. It's an alternative explanation that addresses your question, without the inclusion of a god. Nothing more, but also nothing less.
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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2013, 03:53:17 PM »

The Big Bang WAS the beginning and there was no time, matter or space before that. There was no "before". The energy of the expanding universe condensed matter from energy in the ratio E=mc2.

Foxy...I agree with you.  There was no before before the Big Bang.  But what you are saying does not support what you are saying.  I will give you energy is not matter.  But to any reasonable person when you say universe, you are talking about space.  And if you are saying that energy expanding that universe (space) before (time) to create the Big Bang, then you are telling me space and time existed in nothingness.

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2013, 03:58:50 PM »
If you're going to state something as a fact please provide evidence otherwise write as an opinion which clearly it is.

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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2013, 04:06:06 PM »
Jag--
  So our universe could have been created out of a black hole in another universe, and that universe is created out of another universe... and on and on....  It is my understanding that multiple universes are at this point nothing but fanciful story lines for movies.  Am I wrong about that?  And even if I am not, each universe has a beginning, and will have an end (Second Law of Thermodynamics).  So at some point you have to wrestle with what began the first universe.  And to say it was created out of energy in that universe you are back to the same problem I have pointed out.

By the way, have I been illogical or delusional in all of this I have presented?

Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2013, 04:11:37 PM »

Whatever you think is likely or logical from daily experience is WRONG. Experiments show that the universe does not work according to daily experience. Even something as simple as light reflected from a pool of water shows non causality in nature.

But isn't that exactly the atheist argument against God's existence??? God doesn't exist because it would be unlikely and illogical compared to daily experience.  You are telling me the universe is not logical according to daily experience....hmmmm

So if an atheist thinks it is likely and logical that God does not exist from daily experience it is wrong?? Or are you only saying that about Monotheists?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 04:18:54 PM by Randyjp »

Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2013, 04:16:50 PM »
If you're going to state something as a fact please provide evidence otherwise write as an opinion which clearly it is.

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What are you referring to?

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2013, 04:17:07 PM »

The Big Bang WAS the beginning and there was no time, matter or space before that. There was no "before". The energy of the expanding universe condensed matter from energy in the ratio E=mc2.

Foxy...I agree with you.  There was no before before the Big Bang.  But what you are saying does not support what you are saying.  I will give you energy is not matter.  But to any reasonable person when you say universe, you are talking about space.  And if you are saying that energy expanding that universe (space) before (time) to create the Big Bang, then you are telling me space and time existed in nothingness.

Space and time are a product of the universe. They cannot exist without it. It is the universe which brings space and time into being.



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Offline Randyjp

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2013, 04:23:45 PM »
Space and time are a product of the universe. They cannot exist without it. It is the universe which brings space and time into being.

I agree, space and time exists because the universe exists.  But science has proven that the universe has not always existed.  So what brought the universe into existence?  And don't say energy in the universe. Cause that is not logical.. Of course if we throw out logic, the universe can be created with energy in the universe.  But if we throw out logic then believing in a God can not be illogical.

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Re: In the beginning was......WHAT ?
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2013, 04:25:01 PM »

Whatever you think is likely or logical from daily experience is WRONG. Experiments show that the universe does not work according to daily experience. Even something as simple as light reflected from a pool of water shows non causality in nature.

But isn't that exactly the atheist argument against God's existence??? God doesn't exist because it would be unlikely and illogical compared to daily experience.  You are telling me the universe is not logical according to daily experience....hmmmm

No, the reason not to believe in a god is that there is no evidence to support it. It also depends on your definition of god.

Experiments show how nature works.
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