Prayer and its non-existent effects (Free chance to prove prayer too.)

[ThatZenoGuy]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.
I have an eye defect that makes it aim to one side and and flawed vision.
If you are a theist, and want to prove prayer works, pray for my eye to get better.

[Nam]

They don't care about you or your eye.

-Nam

[Anfauglir]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.
I have an eye defect that makes it aim to one side and and flawed vision.
If you are a theist, and want to prove prayer works, pray for my eye to get better.

Hey!  I've been asking believers to pray for my eye for years!  Back of the line, newbies!   

[Aaron123]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.
I have an eye defect that makes it aim to one side and and flawed vision.
If you are a theist, and want to prove prayer works, pray for my eye to get better.

Respond #1) You do not test Thy Lord God!  (because god had bad experiences with tests during his school days)

Respond #2 God has plans for you and your eyes.  (which is the same as no plans)

[neopagan]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.
I have an eye defect that makes it aim to one side and and flawed vision.
If you are a theist, and want to prove prayer works, pray for my eye to get better.

Don't you know god heals your heart, not your other organs?  Keep an eye out (so to speak), for glowing red lights in your peripheral vision. One burger-making theist here claimed the blinking light was jeezus communicating with him.   

[ParkingPlaces]

The purpose of prayer, as with all religious paraphernalia, is to distract people from the real world. Hence, there are fewer scientists/researchers/inventors to help with things like eye problems. The religious simply do too much stuff wrong.

Which is not to imply that there is a right amount of wrong to do.

[jdawg70]

Respond #1) You do not test Thy Lord God!  (because god had bad experiences with tests during his school days)

Respond #2 God has plans for you and your eyes.  (which is the same as no plans)

Response #3: But if god did heal your eye, then everyone in the world would know god exists and that would violate free will, which god doesn't want to have happen because that would be bad.  Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to my god-given mission of telling everyone to believe that god exists. (any contradictions or other lapses of basic logic that you see is only because you don't have enough faith)

[sun_king]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.
I have an eye defect that makes it aim to one side and and flawed vision.
If you are a theist, and want to prove prayer works, pray for my eye to get better.

Did you try donating a lot of cash?

Alternately you can offer a burnt motherboard or smash a new iPhone. There needs to be some sacrifice...

[screwtape]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.
I have an eye defect that makes it aim to one side and and flawed vision.
If you are a theist, and want to prove prayer works, pray for my eye to get better.

I think it depends for what you pray.  If you need to make your next mortgage payment, prayer is useless.  If you've got a wonky eye you want cured, prayer is useless.  If your car has no battery and you need to get it started, prayer does zilch.

However, praying for strength to endure a hardship, or for patience with your spouse, or for self awareness, or to ease your worry, prayer can work.[1]  But I do not think that is a supernatural thing.  I think it is a form of meditation, where a person focuses on an idea or problem and becomes mindful of it. 

I have made a secular prayer for myself to help me be mindful of things that are important to me. Patience, listenting, being positive, etc.  No gods are invoked.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roya-r-rad-ma-psyd/prayer_b_3055127.html

1.	I say "can", not "will", because obviously it does not work for everyone, every time

[jdawg70]

Did you try donating a lot of cash?

Alternately you can offer a burnt motherboard or smash a new iPhone. There needs to be some sacrifice...

There is a really bad joke involving Retina Displays here...

[nogodsforme]

Did someone call me? Oh. My bad. Carry on, people. 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Wow, 10 replies that quickly?

Anyway, how many theists are there on this site?

Is there any who have endured being here for a long time?

[neopagan]

Precious few stick around for long.  I'm not aware of any hard core participants at the moment.  Maybe some random deist-types (or whatever they wish to define themselves as)

Most are of the drive-by variety who dump their "wisdom" on us, like we have never heard their inane revelations before, and go off in the sunset when they have decided they are throwing pearls to swine...

[nogodsforme]

We have had a few god-believers who stick around for quite a long time. Most have been relatively reasonable and fun to interact with. After a while, they understand that we don't accept statements from religious scriptures as truth unless there is a factual basis. They realize that nobody here is going to accept bogus arguments about why their god does not seem to exist. They generally get worn out and leave on their own. They are welcome back anytime.

I can think of three off the top of my head who were truly awful people: insulting to everyone, giving out smites to anyone who disagreed with them, linking to crazy websites instead of answering questions, refusing to engage in a sensible manner, and being a general pain in the a$$. We tolerate them for far longer than most religious sites tolerate atheists (where anyone who asks too many questions gets banned). After several attempts to get them to behave and play nice, they end up banned.

I don't think belief has anything to do with it--some religious people are nice and others are just jerks. But religious jerks think they are better than we are, no matter how badly they behave. Because god.

[12 Monkeys]

I am hung like a horse,I have been praying for shrinkage for years.....maybe my wife has been praying to keep it and God in answering her prayers and not mine

[penfold]

 

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.

Not sure I agree with this. As screwtape has already noted:

However, praying for strength to endure a hardship, or for patience with your spouse, or for self awareness, or to ease your worry, prayer can work.[1]  But I do not think that is a supernatural thing.  I think it is a form of meditation, where a person focuses on an idea or problem and becomes mindful of it. 

1.	I say "can", not "will", because obviously it does not work for everyone, every time

He is right to point out that there is robust evidence that in this sense prayer does work. However I think we can draw the point even broader; for those who are religious prayer works in exactly the way it is supposed to; it provides them with a means of communication with the divine.

My own view is that the 'divine' is really best described as the subconscious self, however that does not lessen the profundity of that communication for the devotee. In terms of effect and impact prayer has huge import. A devout friend of mine uses prayer as a way to help him though his ongoing battle with schizophrenia - he does not for a moment believe that prayer can cure him; but the solace and peace it brings keeps him afloat during his 'bad days'. The charge that prayer is doing 'zilch' for him is simply not accurate.

I think the 'why won't prayer heal my eye' question can only really be asked of a very small fringe of devout intercessory prayer believers. Most theists no more believe that prayer works in that way than you or I do.

[ThatZenoGuy]

As all current evidence says, prayer does zilch.

Not sure I agree with this. As screwtape has already noted:

However, praying for strength to endure a hardship, or for patience with your spouse, or for self awareness, or to ease your worry, prayer can work.[1]  But I do not think that is a supernatural thing.  I think it is a form of meditation, where a person focuses on an idea or problem and becomes mindful of it. 

1.	I say "can", not "will", because obviously it does not work for everyone, every time

He is right to point out that there is robust evidence that in this sense prayer does work. However I think we can draw the point even broader; for those who are religious prayer works in exactly the way it is supposed to; it provides them with a means of communication with the divine.

My own view is that the 'divine' is really best described as the subconscious self, however that does not lessen the profundity of that communication for the devotee. In terms of effect and impact prayer has huge import. A devout friend of mine uses prayer as a way to help him though his ongoing battle with schizophrenia - he does not for a moment believe that prayer can cure him; but the solace and peace it brings keeps him afloat during his 'bad days'. The charge that prayer is doing 'zilch' for him is simply not accurate.

I think the 'why won't prayer heal my eye' question can only really be asked of a very small fringe of devout intercessory prayer believers. Most theists no more believe that prayer works in that way than you or I do.

But what ever happened to "Ask and ye shall get"?
Isn't that what the theist god often promises?

[screwtape]

But what ever happened to "Ask and ye shall get"?
Isn't that what the theist god often promises?

Sure.  But theists model the world in pretty much the same way we do.  They anticipate those kinds of prays being ineffective.[1]  So they lower the bar.  You have to ask for things that might happen anyway. You have to ask for things that are within your power.  You have to ask for things that are part of His Will.  That way, when you make them come true, it is evidence that the cosmic overlord of all existence cares about you.  And if you don't make them come true, oh well, I guess He has other Plans...

1.	one could argue they are as much atheists as we are.

[ThatZenoGuy]

But what ever happened to "Ask and ye shall get"?
Isn't that what the theist god often promises?

Sure.  But theists model the world in pretty much the same way we do.  They anticipate those kinds of prays being ineffective.[1]  So they lower the bar.  You have to ask for things that might happen anyway. You have to ask for things that are within your power.  You have to ask for things that are part of His Will.  That way, when you make them come true, it is evidence that the cosmic overlord of all existence cares about you.  And if you don't make them come true, oh well, I guess He has other Plans...

1.	one could argue they are as much atheists as we are.

I guess, i find it ironic that they know that their own religion is false in ways, yet still have the nerve to say other religions are false/atheists are immoral/etc.

[screwtape]

I guess, i find it ironic that they know that their own religion is false in ways, yet still have the nerve to say other religions are false/atheists are immoral/etc.

the mind is a terrible thing, treacherous and deceptive.

[ThatZenoGuy]

I guess, i find it ironic that they know that their own religion is false in ways, yet still have the nerve to say other religions are false/atheists are immoral/etc.

the mind is a terrible thing, treacherous and deceptive.

Agreed...
But hey, at least we enjoy being treacherous, deceptive creatures, am i right 9_9.

[screwtape]

But hey, at least we enjoy being treacherous, deceptive creatures, am i right 9_9.

No, it's not that we are treacherous and deceptive, it is that our minds are.  The mind sabotages rational understanding of reality.

And if you study the causes of our beliefs and motivations long enough, another realization hits you.

“Oh my God,” you think. “It’s not that I have a rational little homunculus inside that is being ‘corrupted’ by all these evolved heuristics and biases layered over it. No, the data are saying that the software program that is me just is heuristics and biases. I just am this kluge of evolved cognitive modules and algorithmic shortcuts. I’m not an agent designed to have correct beliefs and pursue explicit goals; I’m a crazy robot built as a vehicle for propagating genes without spending too much energy on expensive thinking neurons.”

http://intelligenceexplosion.com/2011/the-crazy-robots-rebellion/

[hickdive]

Your eye has not been healed because the theists aren't praying hard enough.

[ThatZenoGuy]

But hey, at least we enjoy being treacherous, deceptive creatures, am i right 9_9.

No, it's not that we are treacherous and deceptive, it is that our minds are.  The mind sabotages rational understanding of reality.

I was being sarcastic, sorry...

[ThatZenoGuy]

Your eye has not been healed because the theists aren't praying hard enough.

Damn you theists! *shakes fist*
Put some effort into it.

[Jontom10]

I dunno about your eye but only earlier I was praying that someone would open another thread about the ineffectiveness of prayer and PRAISE BE TO DA LORD my prayer has been answered and here we are.

God therefore exists.

Pah!

[neopagan]

and I was praying someone would open a thread about tulpae... wow, gawd is moving!!

[Jonny-UK]

and I was praying my bottle of wine would not run out..........Damn...........need to find more responsive god

[neopagan]

^^^ as long as you have a bottle of water, he can help you out - he mastered that old trick years ago at a wedding