A Thought about Genesis

[neopagan]

Does make you wonder why god stuck all these parts on that he just would require people to cut off later. 

Like the left side of the brain?[1]

1.	for any interloping fundies, that would be the side of your noggin'  that deals with logic...

[dloubet]

I have a question: was there death in the garden before the fall? If not, then everything was immortal. So those theists claiming the god warned of a spiritual death completely ignore that the fall also included a real physical death, which couldn't happen until the fruit was eaten. That's kind of a big omission by the god, no? It could have told them that, "Oh, by the way, if you eat of the fruit you'll also get old, decrepit, and stop breathing, and then rot, and so will everything else."

[Fiji]

I have come across Christians who say that, no, there was no death, cause, see, the predators were all vegetarian.
Which is nice and all except ... plants live too, don't they.
Soooo, from the plants' point of view, the garden was a great massacre and things actually improved after the fall.

[Hatter23]

I have come across Christians who say that, no, there was no death, cause, see, the predators were all vegetarian.
Which is nice and all except ... plants live too, don't they.
Soooo, from the plants' point of view, the garden was a great massacre and things actually improved after the fall.

Oh and what about the bacteria that have to die in order for the soil to have the right nutrient level for the plants? IIRC that's part of biology, right?

And since God Invented the rainbow after the flood, wasn't the sun rather harsh when the atmosphere had no light refraction?

[epidemic]

I have a question: was there death in the garden before the fall? If not, then everything was immortal. So those theists claiming the god warned of a spiritual death completely ignore that the fall also included a real physical death, which couldn't happen until the fruit was eaten. That's kind of a big omission by the god, no? It could have told them that, "Oh, by the way, if you eat of the fruit you'll also get old, decrepit, and stop breathing, and then rot, and so will everything else."

I have been thinking about this and I am not sure we can decide either way.  Adam and Eve were both created with full knowledge.  They were programmed with a lifetime of understanding.  Did that pre-programming include the nuances of death, aging, suffering?  I don't know!

We do know that it was deficient in nudity,  it apparently was a new feeling that being nude could be embarrasing.  Of course looking at people today,  I don't see how they could have been embarrased by nudity.  I believe that is a learned behavior.  Tribes in africa let their junk hang out because it is culturally acceptable.  Adam and Eve were the culture at the time I find it hard to believe they would have suddenly been embarrased by it.  I don't believe there is a natural human tendency toward embarrasment over nudity that is a learned behavior and far from universal.

[neopagan]

I would like to see how god went about killing an animal, skinning it, drying the hide and sewing up some garments for them.  Supposedly, he had to show them this process and have them sit quietly in their fig leaves while taking notes on their iPad.

Note: As a believer, I thought this was an early Christ reference... blood being shed for man's sin.  Now, I just call BS.

[epidemic]

I would like to see how god went about killing an animal, skinning it, drying the hide and sewing up some garments for them.  Supposedly, he had to show them this process and have them sit quietly in their fig leaves while taking notes on their iPad.

Note: As a believer, I thought this was an early Christ reference... blood being shed for man's sin.  Now, I just call BS.

Well I don't expect God lead a seminar on animal hide curing and butchering.

[neopagan]

Well I don't expect God lead a seminar on animal hide curing and butchering.

Why wouldn't he? A and E obviously did not know how to do it - they went for itchy fig leaves.  And YHWH was damn picky about how you go about slaughtering livestock to eat or even roast for his olfactory amusement... 

[Betelnut]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with an 11 year-old the other day.  (The son of my daughter's tutor.)  He showed me a picture he had drawn of Adam and Eve (he goes to a Catholic school).  A&E were clothed in, what looked like, modern clothes.  I asked, "Where did they get the clothes?"

The kid said that he would probably get in trouble for drawing them naked.  I asked how A&E would know how to plant cotton, spin it, etc.  Then I said, "It sort of starts falling apart doesn't it?  Once that doubt creeps in..."  This other kid was there listening and he gave me a wide-eyed look.  I wonder if an adult had EVER questioned these myths in their presence before.

Fun, fun, fun.

[Chilly]

still they disobeyed God. So what if they don't know what it means you still should follow his instructions anyways. anyways the Bible was created by man so there could be some false things

[Hatter23]

still they disobeyed God. So what if they don't know what it means you still should follow his instructions anyways. anyways the Bible was created by man so there could be some false things

false? You mean like there is a god, and he had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to avert his own wrath for his creations not living up to his standards like he knew they weren't going to?

[Foxy Freedom]

Chilly, 

I guess one of those false things you mentioned is Eve being created from a rib. The people who wrote this kind of thing didn't know much about anything.

[screwtape]

I have a question: was there death in the garden before the fall?

tough question.  There was a Tree of Life, apparently nearby the Tree of Moral Knowledge.  If they ate from it, yhwh said it would make Eve and her slow witted mate immortal. 

It is possible they were already mortal and the fruit of the tree rejuvenated them pre-fall and death came from losing access to it.  Or, the tree would reverse yhwh's curse post-fall.  Either way, yhwh was so terrified by that prospect, that he put angels with flaming swords in front of it to guard it from them.[1]

But in the end, the bible just does not say.  So any speculation is just that.

Adam and Eve were both created with full knowledge.  They were programmed with a lifetime of understanding.

That is non-scriptural speculation.  And full knowledge of what?  Obviously not differentical calculus, germ theory or applied solid state physics.  They had to have been programed with some arbitrarily chosen level of technology.  Was it pre- or post- agricultural revolution? 



 

1.	gen 3:22-24

[screwtape]

still they disobeyed God. So what if they don't know what it means you still should follow his instructions anyways.

why?

[Mrjason]

still they disobeyed God. So what if they don't know what it means you still should follow his instructions anyways.

why?

Good question, they couldn't possibly have known that disobeying was wrong as they had no knowledge of good and evil

[William]

I guess one of those false things you mentioned is Eve being created from a rib. The people who wrote this kind of thing didn't know much about anything.

All my girls are very ticklish 

[Willie]

I would like to see how god went about killing an animal, skinning it, drying the hide and sewing up some garments for them.  Supposedly, he had to show them this process and have them sit quietly in their fig leaves while taking notes on their iPad.

No need for that. Clothing grew on trees back then. But after the fall, the cottonwood trees lost their natural ability to spin and weave. I have two of them in my yard that indeed do not spin or weave, but merely drop unspun, unwoven, fuzz all over the yard. Not even so much as a sock, shoelace, or skein of thread amongst the mess. Hard physical evidence that my tale is true.

[neopagan]

^^^ I have a lace bark elm... so, that's where lace comes from?  No wonder the spousal unit always has lace doilies lying around (they make lousy tissues).

[Chilly]

Just asking how did you know they did not know what bad and what is good

[Anfauglir]

Just asking how did you know they did not know what bad and what is good

Because until they ate the fruit, they did NOT know good from evil.  That's kind of the point of the fable...

[Mrjason]

Anfauglir beat me to it 

[Anfauglir]

To quote from the book itself:

3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Couldn't be plainer.  Before they ate, they did not know good from evil - things just were.  It was only after they ate, that they could make a decision as to whether eating was a good or a bad thing - but of course THEN it was too late.

[Mrjason]

To quote from the book itself:

3:5 - For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Couldn't be plainer.  Before they ate, they did not know good from evil - things just were.  It was only after they ate, that they could make a decision as to whether eating was a good or a bad thing - but of course THEN it was too late.

It is odd isn't it.
I equate it to specifically and emphatically telling your kid "do not put this fork in that electrical socket. Why? Just don't" then handing them the fork pointing at the socket a couple of times before walking away

[screwtape]

Just asking how did you know they did not know what bad and what is good

To support Anfauglir, because he's totally right, that was the whole point of them realising they were naked.

When yhwh created them:
"Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame."  gen 2:25

After they ate the fruit from the Tree of Moral Knowledge:
"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."  gen 3:7

"He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”  gen 3:10

Recognizing their nudity and feeling shame is a device used to show how they were changed by eating the fruit.

[screwtape]

It is odd isn't it.
I equate it to specifically and emphatically telling your kid "do not put this fork in that electrical socket. Why? Just don't" then handing them the fork pointing at the socket a couple of times before walking away

I don't think it is.  I think it is worse than that.  I think it is more like telling your kid to not read that science book or he will die.  And then leaving him in the room with a science teacher who opens the book and hands it to your kid.  And then kicking the kid out of the house forever when you find out.  And not having anything to do with his kids.  And then one day you have another kid.  And you have him killed so you can forgive your first kid's grandchildren. 

Crazy people have too much sway with the rest of us.

[ParkingPlaces]

Recognizing their nudity and feeling shame is a device used to show how they were changed by eating the fruit.

Think about it: If A&E hadn't sinned, we'd all be walking around naked and it would look like we were on a porn set. But we wouldn't know it, because we would be too pure. I'm trying to figure out which of those two things would be worse...

On the bright side, nobody would have invented either guns or child support.

[neopagan]

I had an eerily similar conversation with a pastor a couple days ago.  He knew my atheistic stance and went so far as to say he "really respected me for taking a difficult stance." Furthermore, when we spoke briefly of the Genesis story, he essesntially said he had rejected all the "tall tales in the Bible and could only hang his hat on Jesus" (really, he said that - I wanted to ask, "On what, a nail?") and the resurrection.  I was really confused, and I asked how he could logically reject the "tall tales" but cling to perhaps the tallest of them all - that a guy had died, been resurrected and somehow took on your sins - and disappeared....

[Fiji]

^^ interresting ... So, in his mind, Jesus died for the sins we don't have since there never was an original sin.
erm ... what? 

[neopagan]

^^ interresting ... So, in his mind, Jesus died for the sins we don't have since there never was an original sin.
erm ... what? 

Exactly... there are not a lot of pieces you can subtract from the house of cards until it all starts to tumble over.  I was in the unique position, as a formerly closeted atheist, of having a pastor tell me things in confidence he did not want his flock to hear (and asked I not discuss it with church folk).  And no... he wasn't naked.