Author Topic: A Thought about Genesis  (Read 3426 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2013, 09:30:46 AM »
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Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2013, 09:57:00 AM »
oops... my bad - I will fix that.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2013, 01:06:07 PM »
God was testing them

No knowledge of right or wrong
No knowledge of Death

Yeah. I testing you right now. Tell me the number/color/animal/rock/or imaginary comcept I am thinking of and in which language you are unfamiliar with I am thinking of it in.

Too bad, I already know you are going to fail at this test. Then I am going to blame your relatives.

Have them beg me for forgiveness for you failing such a wonderful test.





« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 01:15:44 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Online rev45

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2013, 01:35:15 PM »
God was testing them
Testing them for what?  Obedience?  How long were they to be tested?  What would have happened if they passed the test assuming that the test ended at some point?  Why did god see fit to condemn all of humanity because these two failed his test?  Making humanity suffer the consequences because of two people's mistake seems quite harsh and batshit insane.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 01:37:18 PM by rev45 »
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2013, 01:35:47 PM »
So keeping things simple-
God creates everything, god knows everything that has/is/will happen.
God creates the Garden of Eden, Adam, Eve, the tree, the apple etc.
God then must already know every possible variable and outcome for the situation.
God then gets annoyed when the outcome he already knew actually happens.
Many years later he sends himself to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to somehow balance the books.
Just does not seem to add up.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2013, 01:37:18 PM »
God was testing them

Maybe.  But I don't think so.

Usually tests are a measure of learning, achievement or skill.  What was being tested there?  And after a test you get to review the results so you can do better.  In what way did that happen?   

If this really was a test, why were the consequences permanent?  Why did the fruit actually change them?  Why not just say an ordinary tree was The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for test purposes?  Did it really need to be the TKGE? 

And why were they punished for failing the test?  Does anyone test their kids by placing a cookie jar in the middle of the living room, tell them not to eat cookies and then ground them for life when they do?  You'd have to be some kind of lunatic to do that.

And why did yhwh not just undo the effects and have a "teaching moment"?  He's omnipotent, right?  He could have gotten the sin out just by willing it.[1]  He could have sat down with Eve and her slow witted mate and explained what they did wrong.  "Sorry, you two.  You are not ready to have moral judgment.  I should not have let the snake in here, but I really need you guys to listen to me.  We'll work on that for a while.  Until then, I'll just keep that Tree some place you can't reach. Got it?  Okay.  Now, go play."

The whole thing is crazy whether you take it literally or figuratively. 

An alternative explanation is yhwh was actually evil and wanted his new people to not have moral judgment, ever.  He actually had evil things in store, and if they gained moral judgment, they would not go along with his villainous plans.  If that is so - and that makes a heck of a lot more sense to me - then the snake saved them and Eve is a courageous, smart hero. 

 
 1. ...or could he?
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Offline epidemic

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2013, 02:23:50 PM »
The concept of a God test is somewhat absurd. 

Adam and Eve were apparently programmed from their creation with knowledge.  They did not go through the normal rearing process.  In essence they were programmed from the moment of their creation.  Of course this may well imply that they had all the knowledge needed to understand what death was, what lying was, and so on.

But I do take exeption to the concept of God giving a test.  God gave a verbal input and got exactly the response he expected.  The test implies you have some doubt as to the outcome.  I think a more appropriate statement would be that god programmed and then used Adam and Eve to achieve the exact results he expected.

Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2013, 02:34:47 PM »
"Sorry, you two.  You are not ready to have moral judgment.  I should not have let the snake in here, but I really need you guys to listen to me.  We'll work on that for a while.  Until then, I'll just keep that Tree some place you can't reach. Got it?  Okay.  Now, go play shag."

^^^ Here - I fixed that for you...  ;D that would have kept them out of trouble with that tree for a good while.  I'm assuming he had not given them their respective nasty parts at that point, otherwise, they would not have been playing with talking snakes...
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2013, 05:03:19 PM »
That's right. The story makes it sound like before they ate the fruit, A and E were playing naked volleyball or hide-and-seek in the garden like innocent, if overlarge, children on a field trip. Smooth and sex organ-less as Barbie and Ken. And white, if medieval painters are to be believed; however, they do not appear to have suffered from sunburn.

Then they eat the fruit and whambo! Porn-star-sized parts appear and after banging themselves into exhaustion, they rush to hide their nakedness under some leaf clothes like embarrassed adolescents.[1]

Later that night as they contemplate their fall and the resulting eternal damnation of their entire species, Eve was heard to ask Adam, "Do these leaves make my butt look big?"
 1. Later, the medieval painters will drape Eve's hair modestly over her boobies and arrange helpful vines to cover Little Adam.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2013, 07:05:00 PM »
^^^ I suspect Adam's first sin was to answer that question.

Hence dooming men to a similar fate for generation after generation.

I always used what I still think is a clever response. "I'm not going to play that game. But please promise not to sit on me?"

It never worked. I guess there was a flaw in my thinking...
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Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2013, 09:49:10 AM »
Another thing I have never understood... why did A and E suddenly care they were naked?  Were they afraid a dinosaur would see them?  That's why I think their magic naughty bits "grew" after they ate the fruit... suddenly, they had something different they thought god did not know about. 
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2013, 10:29:55 AM »
The thing about that which has always puzzled me is that why, if being naked is a sin (or, at least, something to be seen as shameful), why would Yahweh have created them that way to begin with? Is it only when you are seen by someone other than your mate? Did they sew the fig leaves together to keep Yahweh from seeing them, or to cover themselves from each other also? And, come to that, if Yahweh is omniscient and omnipresent (though he didn't seem to be back in those days anyway, but that's a whole other issue), where is the shame in his seeing you naked either, given that you are bound to be in that state at least occasionally?

The "naughty bits", we can assume must have been there, at least visually, unless A&E did not have functioning digestive systems either...Maybe it was just Adam's that "grew"  ;)


Offline Dante

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2013, 10:31:37 AM »
The thing about that which has always puzzled me is that why, if being naked is a sin (or, at least, something to be seen as shameful), why would Yahweh have created them that way to begin with?

Maybe that's why the xians claim we are all "born into sin". Simply because their god forgot/neglected to give us clothing in the womb.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2013, 10:50:32 AM »
The "naughty bits", we can assume must have been there, at least visually, unless A&E did not have functioning digestive systems either...Maybe it was just Adam's that "grew"  ;)

Why would they have originally needed functioning digestive systems? What comes out of the body was vile to YHWH... so why would any of those things be incuded originally?  Besides, they did not even need to eat, since they were not going to die or even be hungry... yet somehow Eve fell for some fruit and a snake (visual pun there somewhere)?

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2013, 01:25:01 PM »
Another thing I have never understood... why did A and E suddenly care they were naked?

That was a narrative device to show they gained moral knowledge.  After eating the forbidden fruit, they could tell right from wrong.  And thus, were ashamed of their uncovered bodies. 

Being naked is seen as immoral in the OT.  After the flood, when Noah gets liquored up and passes out butt naked, his sons have to cover him up walking backward, lest they glimpse his buns.  Other places this is demonstrated too.  And it is why jews to this day use a sheet with a hole in it to have sex.[1]

Which begs the question, why would a good god create them that way?  Further evidence yhwh was an evil deity...

 
 1. I know they don't.  I just find it hilarous that anyone would believe that.
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 02:49:35 PM »
Just had to check out the sheet thing. I think I heard this growing up in black communities where people believed it was practiced by Orthodox Jews. And it is not true. Evidently Jewish sex is supposed to be pretty hot. Who knew? http://www.snopes.com/religion/sheet.asp
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 02:54:12 PM »
Which begs the question, why would a good god create them that way?  Further evidence yhwh was an evil deity...

Yes, many a begged question in all that... I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"
My guess would be the gazelles or those pesky unicorns. 
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Online jdawg70

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 03:14:45 PM »
Yes, many a begged question in all that... I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"
My guess would be the gazelles or those pesky unicorns.
Leave the unicorns out of this.  It was clearly the cud-chewing rabbits.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 03:26:03 PM »
ok, it was the four legged insects...
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Offline Jag

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 04:23:04 PM »
I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"

This is a good one too - wish I'd remembered it, as it would have been handy on several occasions. I would have said that he was asking if one of the other gods (the ones he was consulting about these creatures he was making in their image a few days earlier) had ratted him out. I gotta admit though, I like your answer better, and will use it if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks!
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 05:17:28 PM »
I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"

This is a good one too - wish I'd remembered it, as it would have been handy on several occasions. I would have said that he was asking if one of the other gods (the ones he was consulting about these creatures he was making in their image a few days earlier) had ratted him out. I gotta admit though, I like your answer better, and will use it if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks!

It has been likened to a parent asking a child about misbehavior, even though they full well know the child is at fault, so that's a non starter.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2013, 07:34:01 PM »
An omniscient being should not have to play such paltry word games. How about, "You two get your asses out here...you fucked up! And let me tell you about poison ivy (what you call fig leaves)!!"
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 07:36:48 PM by neopagan »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2013, 07:57:36 AM »
Evidently Jewish sex is supposed to be pretty hot.

Yeah, sure.  And they are the Chosen People, and their god is the greatest ever, and they built the pyramids... 
Their self agrandizing knows no limits. 


Studs.

Seriously, though.  What would be their basis for comparison?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2013, 08:01:23 AM »
Yes, many a begged question in all that... I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"

the answer I get is that yhwh was talking down to them, like a parent to his children.  Because right before that, yhwh cannot even find them and has to ask, "where the heck are you guys?" But of course yhwh already knew, because we have to presuppose that people always thought yhwh was GOD and was omnimax, so this is just yhwh dealing with children.  and then he kills them.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2013, 08:27:43 AM »
Another thing I have never understood... why did A and E suddenly care they were naked?

That was a narrative device to show they gained moral knowledge.  After eating the forbidden fruit, they could tell right from wrong.  And thus, were ashamed of their uncovered bodies. 

Which means Yahweh, the only moral being in the universe at that point, was looking at their naked bodies and knowing it was wrong, but unable to help himself.

Maybe that was why he set up the deliberate fail - so they'd go put some clothes on so he wouldn't have to look at them.  Mind you, he then kicked them out of the house and drew the curtains to be left alone with his bank of memories..... :o
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2013, 08:52:39 AM »
And it is why jews to this day use a sheet with a hole in it to have sex.[1]
 1. I know they don't.  I just find it hilarous that anyone would believe that.

Wait, you are saying Jews only have sex via the sheethole?   :laugh:
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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2013, 08:59:48 AM »
Wait, you are saying Jews only have sex via the sheethole?   :laugh:

Nah.  I'm just making fun of an obviously untrue rumor.  Of course they don't do that.  They actually use a quilt.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2013, 09:02:59 AM »
Wait, you are saying Jews only have sex via the sheethole?   :laugh:

Nah.  I'm just making fun of an obviously untrue rumor.  Of course they don't do that.  They actually use a quilt.

Whew... I thought for a moment there they would be ceremonially unlean. Quiltholes are much cleaner than sheetholes.
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: A Thought about Genesis
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2013, 02:48:13 PM »
Evidently Jewish sex is supposed to be pretty hot.

Yeah, sure.  And they are the Chosen People, and their god is the greatest ever, and they built the pyramids... 
Their self agrandizing knows no limits. 


Studs.

Seriously, though.  What would be their basis for comparison?

All the shiksas and schwartzas they fool around with before they marry the nice Jewish spouse?

Muslims say that Islamic sex is pretty hot, too. I am sure that it can be-- but again, what is the basis for comparison? We had a Muslim guy here a few years back who argued that Muslim women feel pleasure without the need for any external organs. So you might as well have the genitalia removed before marriage....

There are circumcised men who say that it doesn't bother them that they had something snipped off. Does make you wonder why god stuck all these parts on that he just would require people to cut off later.  &) :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.