Is it morally wrong to impregnate a sub-teen girl?

[anthony_retford]

I just want to see the reactions to my topic, whether they are of disgust, approbation, or approval. I know it is legally wrong here in the US but what about other cultures where it is permitted?

How much influence does religion have on our ideas? If we were in a culture where it is permitted would you do the act?

[Nick]

If you were raised in a culture where that was the norm then you would probably accept it as so.  And, yes, religion, prob plays a big role in its acceptance.

[ParkingPlaces]

Spain just recently raised the age at which females could legally have sex from 12 to 16. There is an island somewhere in the Pacific where one man has the job of de-virginizing every girl when they reach the age of 12. It is his actual job. (Or at least it was in the 90's when I heard the story on NPR.) And after that the girls and all boys of the same age are free to have all the sex they want. Go figure.

 I had a great great great grandmother who got married at age 12 to a 14 year old. She died at the age of 28 giving birth to her 14th kid.

The norm varies. In our American culture, right now, it is indeed considered wrong. This is for two reasons. One, we now realize that it is harmful, physically, for a female to have sex at too young an age. If nothing else, it increases her chance of getting certain cancers if she is sexually active before the age of 13. And second, we have extended childhood into the late teens and have decided that said childhood should not include sex. On top of that, there is no way for a child that young to meet the needs of a newborn, or oversee the raising of a child while she herself is still one.

There are obviously individuals and groups within America who feel differently. Be they mormons or pedophiles. That is, there are people who are willing to harm or chance harming children for their own selfish gratification. The imbalance between the emotional and physical needs of a child and the wanton lack of concern for others exhibited by some needs to come down on the side of the child.

So yep, it is morally wrong. In my strong opinion.

[Nam]

I just want to see the reactions to my topic, whether they are of disgust, approbation, or approval. I know it is legally wrong here in the US but what about other cultures where it is permitted?

How much influence does religion have on our ideas? If we were in a culture where it is permitted would you do the act?

How is it illegal in the US for pre-teens to get pregnant? I don't know that law.

-Nam

[William]

If we were in a culture where it is permitted would you do the act?

No.  (But I'm not a testosterone inflamed teenage male anymore.)

Your question is about "impregnate" - I assume you mean deliberately, with the girl's consent, and with intent to nurture and provide for the resultant child.
Anyone with a bit of wisdom who can think ahead should know that you'd be denying the girl a significant part of her youth and freedom, and taking a risk that the baby might not get optimum care.

God/Allah of course didn't possess such wisdom, because He made sub-teen girls fertile, and vulnerable to men with strength and righteous authority to "do the act".

[Nam]

Spain just recently raised the age at which females could legally have sex from 12 to 16. There is an island somewhere in the Pacific where one man has the job of de-virginizing every girl when they reach the age of 12. It is his actual job. (Or at least it was in the 90's when I heard the story on NPR.) And after that the girls and all boys of the same age are free to have all the sex they want. Go figure.

 I had a great great great grandmother who got married at age 12 to a 14 year old. She died at the age of 28 giving birth to her 14th kid.

The norm varies. In our American culture, right now, it is indeed considered wrong. This is for two reasons. One, we now realize that it is harmful, physically, for a female to have sex at too young an age. If nothing else, it increases her chance of getting certain cancers if she is sexually active before the age of 13. And second, we have extended childhood into the late teens and have decided that said childhood should not include sex. On top of that, there is no way for a child that young to meet the needs of a newborn, or oversee the raising of a child while she herself is still one.

There are obviously individuals and groups within America who feel differently. Be they mormons or pedophiles. That is, there are people who are willing to harm or chance harming children for their own selfish gratification. The imbalance between the emotional and physical needs of a child and the wanton lack of concern for others exhibited by some needs to come down on the side of the child.

So yep, it is morally wrong. In my strong opinion.

You know about the laws in many South American countries? Many child rapists get barely any time at all in prison, and they go back to doing it. I read about this one guy in Columbia where he raped and killed dozens of girls from 9 years old to 12 years old, and he'll be out of prison probably in 2015 based on their maximum penalty of 30 years. Though he's only been in prison for about 10. Good behavior gets you less time, no matter your crime.

They need better laws in that country.

-Nam

[William]

How much influence does religion have on our ideas?

Well for theists who read and love the Bible the precedent and moral template is certainly there:

Numbers 31 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately.  18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

And this Fatwa puts an interesting slant on it for Muslims:

Scholars very nearly agree [sic] that it is the right of the father to marry off his young, immature daughter. This is owing to his authority over her, for as he is responsible for directing her and providing for her, he is also responsible for doing what he believes is in her interest on the issue of marriage.
....
It is also important that we understand that the scholars, while they permitted marrying off young girls, they forbade her husband from having intercourse with her until she could bear it, which [i.e. the age at which she could bear it] varies according to time, place, and environment.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Fatwa:_%22It_Is_Permissible_to_Have_Sexual_Intercourse_with_a_Prepubescent_Girl%22

The way I read that the husband (or the father who has to figure out if she's ready) is free to check from time to time whether the young girl can "bear it".  If not, okay, wait a few weeks, or maybe go to a different tent and check again if it was the just "environment" 

Note that the Fatwa goes on to provide specific comfort about the age of 9 years:

...scholars are of the opinion that the child bride who cannot endure intercourse should not be delivered to her husband until she gets older and reaches an age where she can endure intercourse, even if the husband is wise and faithful, and has promised to not touch her, because perhaps an outburst of lust from within him could lead him to have sex with her and harm her. The opinion of the Hanbalis is that if she has reached nine years of age, then she can be given to her husband. This is based on the sound hadith that the Prophet (peace be upon him) "consummated the marriage with 'A'isha when she was a nine-year-old girl."

[Fiji]

In Ancient Egypt, mid twenties was old age (unless you were part of the ruling class). So, until what age could women still bear children? I would think a 20 year old pregnant woman would be kind of like a present day 40 or 50 year old. It could happen, but not often. So, people married and started families 'early' ... by our standards at least. Pretty much, the instant a girl entered puberty, she was marriable. Twelve, married and pregnant would not have raised any eyebrows back then.[1]
Methinks that even in Ancient Rome, 12 was the acceptable age to marry, for girls anyway, iirc, boys were supposed to be capable of taking care of the family ... ie, adult, ie, 16.
From what I gather from the Homeros, in Ancient Greece, girls/women were pretty much property, just like in the bible. Fathers handed them off to gain advantage somewhere, lords assigned women to faithfull servants and women were counted among the loot after a raid. In fact, the reason Achilles was pissed at Agamemnon was that the latter had nicked the former's share of the loot, ie, Briseis.

But what all of these have in common is puberty. (or at least a standardized age when puberty was supposed to have started) Before puberty, hands off! Which makes sense from an empathy point of view. Sub-teens, as Anthony calls them, aren't ready, physically and/or emotionally for sex. So, forcing them into sex hurts them and is thus a no-no.

1.	assuming, you know, that you actually had eyebrows to raise ... I wonder how Ancient Egyptians would have reacted to Zachary Quinto

[Nam]

Fiji,

Life expectancy deals more with living conditions, than anything, I feel. Like in some parts of Africa life expectancy is in the early to late 40's where as in Japan it averages to the early to mid 80's.

Though, not to be confused with lifespan which is the same today, as in ancient times. One has to consider many variables in the former, but the latter is constant.

-Nam

[Fiji]

Point being, these days quite a few people postpone offspring until their mid-twenties or later. In some countries, The Netherlands for instance, the government event runs campaigns to convince people to have children before fertility starts to go down too much.
My own demonspawn only sprang forth when I was 27.
This was not an option for Ancient Egpytians ... at 27 ... they were most likely quite dead.
In those days, you started having procreative (and one assumes, recreative) sex as soon as possible, ie puberty. So, by the time you're 25 and old and decrepid, you have some 10-year-old-ish kids to take care of you.
The fact that puberty and sexuality have become uncoupled in western society is because we have the luxury of growing old.
Enter religion and the need to keep girls 'pure' so they don't lose their value[1]. "No sex before marriage!" insists the priest. Et voila, sexual repression for teens.

1.	a monetary value codified in religion, of course

[MadBunny]

I just want to see the reactions to my topic, whether they are of disgust, approbation, or approval. I know it is legally wrong here in the US but what about other cultures where it is permitted?

Yes, it's wrong.  From a physical standpoint and from an intellectual standpoint.

While there are moral and legal considerations, not to mention the usual infestation of religious ideology, the main problem as I see it is that young girls are not fully physically developed at that age.  Their bodies can be very easily damaged by the whole process of of impregnation and birth.

Putting aside age issues, or rather ignore them for the moment, I'd say that post, or even late puberty is really the only time becomes acceptable from the physical standpoint.

On the intellectual side, it's my opinion that kids shouldn't be having kids.  People who are not mature enough to accept the mantle and responsibility of adulthood generally speaking make poor parents.  People who have not established a viable means of actually caring for their own offspring, depending on the largess of others are essentially gambling on generosity to raise their children.

Sure, it happens all the time, there are plenty of stories of young, poor mothers who raise perfectly decent children that go on to become successful.  That's kind of the exception though.  As a rule, successful well educated parents tend to raise successful well educated kids.

[anthony_retford]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

Seems like a lot of young girls got pregnant.

[MadBunny]

Sure, it's possible, but that wasn't really the question was it?

The question asked for your moral basis, and ideally an explanation of it.

[Fiji]

Seems like a lot of young girls got pregnant.

Depends on what you call 'a lot'. How many were on that page? 200? On the entire planet, over 300 years time?
Does make you wonder about exactly how often pre-teen kids get raped.