Author Topic: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...  (Read 18305 times)

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #261 on: October 07, 2013, 12:48:26 PM »
The very earliest Christians at the time of Paul's letters were expecting the end of the world any minute and they did not want to die and miss it because Jesus said it would come immediately.

Anfauglir might have been talking about later in the Roman period when it was realised that the end was not going to come immediately and the idea of heaven was developed. At that time Christians purposely made martyrs of themselves with lions or combat or execution. Some of them travelled to Rome just so that they could be put to death there. Actual persecution of Christians was extremely rare but they were considered strange and antisocial.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 12:57:30 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #262 on: October 07, 2013, 02:50:38 PM »
^^^Interesting. I understood that there were a lot of different religious groups in ancient Rome, mostly polytheistic sects. Like in many ancient and traditional pagan societies, people could kinda pick and choose, mix and match from whatever seemed to make sense. A little god-hero from Egypt, a ritual from Persia, a story from Babylonia, a big goddess from Greece, a holiday from--who cares? it's a holiday! Partay!

Only when the Christians came along, they were determined to condemn anyone who was not doing things exactly their way. People were not even supposed to acknowledge the existence of other beliefs. Once Christians got control, they really cranked up the persecution--along with the idea that they are the ones being persecuted if people don't want their religion.

Now Islam is following the same "my way or the highway" theocratic nonsense.

What is it about the Abrahamic flavors that encourages such rigid and dogmatic behavior?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #263 on: October 07, 2013, 02:55:54 PM »
What is it about the Abrahamic flavors that encourages such rigid and dogmatic behavior?
YHWH.

Well, you did ask.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #264 on: October 07, 2013, 05:39:03 PM »

What is it about the Abrahamic flavors that encourages such rigid and dogmatic behavior?

They believe they have the only god on their side. That makes it easier to see everyone else as evil. Non believers become literally demonised.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 05:41:23 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #265 on: October 08, 2013, 02:44:25 AM »
The very earliest Christians at the time of Paul's letters were expecting the end of the world any minute and they did not want to die and miss it because Jesus said it would come immediately.

True, but I think the end of the world, for Paul's Christians was to be followed by arrival in heaven - a concept that seems to stem from Jesus in the gospels.

Anfauglir might have been talking about later in the Roman period when it was realised that the end was not going to come immediately and the idea of heaven was developed. At that time Christians purposely made martyrs of themselves with lions or combat or execution. Some of them travelled to Rome just so that they could be put to death there. Actual persecution of Christians was extremely rare but they were considered strange and antisocial.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure we can talk of a concept of heaven developing in what you call the Roman period by which I imagine you mean from, maybe 100CE. Certainly towards the end of the 1st century we have people like Ignatius longing to be killed so as to get to heaven so the idea of a heaven is well before him. Indeed, the pharisees differed from the Sadducees precisely on this point - that there is another life in heaven after this one. It seems quite unlikely that such a belief only arose in what you call the 'Roman period' so, could you point me to some evidence that suggests this? Remember we have Mark's gospel written by c 70CE - the basis for the other gospels - so unless your Roman period is much earlier than that it looks like this belief was present in the earliest Christianity.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #266 on: October 08, 2013, 06:46:36 AM »
The very earliest Christians at the time of Paul's letters were expecting the end of the world any minute and they did not want to die and miss it because Jesus said it would come immediately.

True, but I think the end of the world, for Paul's Christians was to be followed by arrival in heaven - a concept that seems to stem from Jesus in the gospels.

Anfauglir might have been talking about later in the Roman period when it was realised that the end was not going to come immediately and the idea of heaven was developed. At that time Christians purposely made martyrs of themselves with lions or combat or execution. Some of them travelled to Rome just so that they could be put to death there. Actual persecution of Christians was extremely rare but they were considered strange and antisocial.

I'm not so sure we can talk of a concept of heaven developing in what you call the Roman period by which I imagine you mean from, maybe 100CE. Certainly towards the end of the 1st century we have people like Ignatius longing to be killed so as to get to heaven so the idea of a heaven is well before him. Indeed, the pharisees differed from the Sadducees precisely on this point - that there is another life in heaven after this one. It seems quite unlikely that such a belief only arose in what you call the 'Roman period' so, could you point me to some evidence that suggests this? Remember we have Mark's gospel written by c 70CE - the basis for the other gospels - so unless your Roman period is much earlier than that it looks like this belief was present in the earliest Christianity.

I've been struggling to find a source for that - clearly its something that got lodged in my brain at some point, but now I can't find where I heard/rerad it.  Guess that's a claim I'll have to retract until I find the source.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #267 on: October 08, 2013, 10:10:24 AM »
I don't believe in hell AA.

I don't either.  Good to find some further common ground with you Junebug72  :)

So does everyone including the Hilters and Kim Jong-ils of this world go to heaven?

If that Taliban turd who shot Malala Yousafzai in the head is in heaven when I get there I'm going to take the fucker out somehow ... will that get me expelled from heaven?


How does one kill or punish an evil soul?

That's why I call it afterlife.  I believe there is a place there for us all.   :laugh:

With unconditional love.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 10:30:22 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #268 on: October 08, 2013, 10:25:40 AM »
That's why I call it afterlife.  I believe there is a place there for us all.   :laugh:

So, in this life, doing the worst things one can to people is OK as one is going to heaven after death?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #269 on: October 08, 2013, 10:52:55 AM »

I'm not so sure we can talk of a concept of heaven developing in what you call the Roman period by which I imagine you mean from, maybe 100CE. Certainly towards the end of the 1st century we have people like Ignatius longing to be killed so as to get to heaven so the idea of a heaven is well before him. Indeed, the pharisees differed from the Sadducees precisely on this point - that there is another life in heaven after this one. It seems quite unlikely that such a belief only arose in what you call the 'Roman period' so, could you point me to some evidence that suggests this? Remember we have Mark's gospel written by c 70CE - the basis for the other gospels - so unless your Roman period is much earlier than that it looks like this belief was present in the earliest Christianity.

I was thinking about the development within Christianity of heaven as a place where the spirit goes when someone dies. The idea was borrowed from other religions in the area. There is some hint at this type of heaven by the time of Revelation.

In Jesus time and the earliest Christians time, heaven was a bodily resurrection at the end of the world, not immediately after death. The earliest Christians were not expecting to be dead for long.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 11:10:55 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #270 on: October 08, 2013, 11:00:33 AM »
That's why I call it afterlife.  I believe there is a place there for us all.   :laugh:

So, in this life, doing the worst things one can to people is OK as one is going to heaven after death?

I call it afterlife for a reason you know.  I'm sure there is fair and just punishment for the a$$holes of this world.  Punishments we should expect from a Loving Creator that won't make the hair on your back stand up.  I think they can pay penance for their evil ways and then come join the rest of us enjoy infinite peace and happiness. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #271 on: October 08, 2013, 11:44:36 AM »
  I'm sure there is fair and just punishment for the a$$holes of this world. 

What makes you sure?  What reasons do you have to believe this?

Also, are you ignoring my previous post?
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Offline William

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #272 on: October 08, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
I think they can pay penance for their evil ways and then come join the rest of us enjoy infinite peace and happiness.

Junebug72, sorry but you are inventing this stuff - it's wishful thinking.  You have no basis for these claims.

What kind of "penance" would Hitler have to pay to rub shoulders with victims of the holocaust in "happiness"?


What kind of "penance" would Pol Pot have to pay to shake the hands of victims of the Khmer Rouge - their hands so far separated from their skulls in this life:

Git mit uns

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #273 on: October 08, 2013, 12:36:28 PM »
I'm not arguing with you or saying you are wrong.  I just don't understand how you get from point A to point B in this statement:
The existence of God gives my life meaning because my life has been one with a lot of suffering involved. 
"I have suffered, I think god exists, thus my life has meaning."   I don't get it. Can you explain further?
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw.  I want a reason for it.  W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Guess I'll ask again: junebug, if heaven wasn't real would you want to know or would you prefer to die believing a heaven exists?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #274 on: October 08, 2013, 12:44:08 PM »
  I'm sure there is fair and just punishment for the a$$holes of this world. 

What makes you sure?  What reasons do you have to believe this?

Also, are you ignoring my previous post?

Yes screw I glanced at it but didn't really get down in it.  You abandoned me which seriously decremented your character.  I also despise arrogance.  Not you just arrogance.  If you ever want we can meet in the middle with two open minds.  I'd like to have that kind of discussion.  One that might be productive.  Trying to change my mind with the tactics I have found here is futile. 

I did not come here to get my mind changed I only came to show that there is another way of looking at the possibility of God's existence w/o the use of religion.  Again my beliefs are not religious.  I don't respect having to repeat myself so much. 

The only way to change this mind is to show me humans are more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God.  Then you will change my mind.  So far mission failed!!! :blank:

I'm not arguing with you or saying you are wrong.  I just don't understand how you get from point A to point B in this statement:
The existence of God gives my life meaning because my life has been one with a lot of suffering involved. 
"I have suffered, I think god exists, thus my life has meaning."   I don't get it. Can you explain further?
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw.  I want a reason for it.  W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Guess I'll ask again: junebug, if heaven wasn't real would you want to know or would you prefer to die believing a heaven exists?

Did it kill you to ask again?  No empathy for the questions rolling in and how busy I am answering them while fighting the side effects of chemo.  Just straight to sarcasm.  WOW!!!  My mind is blown! :blank:
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #275 on: October 08, 2013, 12:45:20 PM »
Your Question I would want to know.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #276 on: October 08, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »
^^ See?  That took *way* less time to type than the outraged response you wrote beforehand, didn't it?  Why not just write that?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #277 on: October 08, 2013, 12:49:39 PM »
Here's a dedication to you all please don't laugh it's from my heart:

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #278 on: October 08, 2013, 12:50:53 PM »
^^ See?  That took *way* less time to type than the outraged response you wrote beforehand, didn't it?  Why not just write that?

Because I wanted to say what I said.  Why not just be nice.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #279 on: October 08, 2013, 01:18:50 PM »
Junebug,
that was lovely.  You're very talented.  Thanks for the dedication.

I appreciate the heartfelt message.  Here is a message that I personally believe in (particularly the last verse).  Not nearly as peaceful and beautiful as yours, but it gets the point across...



In answer to this:

Quote
The only way to change this mind is to show me humans are more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God.  Then you will change my mind.

Speaking personally, I find my own life much more satisfying having eschewed religion, imaginary friends, and belief in higher beings who may or may not be ultimately responsible for having created me, the world we live in, or the choices I make.  I take full responsibility for my own actions, and the repercussions of said actions, both good and bad.  I meet challenges in my life knowing that I have the strength to overcome, particularly if I can lean on my wife and kids, and friends, for love and support.  I find release from the concept of "it's all in god's hands" to be liberating; my fate doesn't depend on the grace (read: whims) of an omnipotent being whose intentions are inscrutable to my paltry brain, but on my own strength and tenacity, mixed in with a good dose of luck (be it good or bad).  I don't have to justify good things happening to bad people and bad things happening to good people--sh1t happens, period.

As far as more loving and caring, I cannot say whether I'd be, for example, a better or worse dad were I to subscribe to belief in a god, but I tend to think I'm doing a dam good job (particularly compared to my own, authoritarian and devout RC, father) and god belief would not improve it much.  I'm contemplating joining the local Lion's club in order to be more giving with no religious/political affiliation (as soon as I'm gainfully employed!!).

In short, I love my life.  I don't worry about sins as I did when I was RC, so I have very little guilt, which leaves more energy for love.  I don't worry about an afterlife, so I can squeeze more fulfillment out of this one.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #280 on: October 08, 2013, 01:48:30 PM »
Your Question I would want to know.

Your mind shouldn't be blown because it was just a straight forward question without sarcasm. Any tone you derived from it was created by you. And yes, I am sympathetic to your current condition and I am sorry for what you're going through and I am happy you're fighting it. But thank you for the answer, jb.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #281 on: October 08, 2013, 02:16:34 PM »
Yes screw I glanced at it but didn't really get down in it. 

Are you saying I should no longer put in any effort with you since it will not be reciprocated?

You abandoned me

Huh?  In what way did I abandon you?

I also despise arrogance.

I don't think I was arrogant.  Honest to glob. I don't see it.

If you ever want we can meet in the middle with two open minds.

I don't know what "meet in the middle" means. 

I did not come here to get my mind changed

I guess you didn't come here with an open mind, then.  That's what that means.  It also means you will not learn anything.  When you learn things, it changes your mind.   


I only came to show that there is another way of looking at the possibility of God's existence w/o the use of religion. 

So, you came here to show us, but not see anything yourself.  You came here to teach, but not to learn.  You came to speak, but not to listen.

That seems rather one sided, don't you think?  A little presumptuous.  That could even be called arrogant, I think.  Now, you could take that as a personal insult, or you could take it a possible constructive criticism.  Someone who genuinely cares about the truth and becoming a better person will do a little self reflection.

Again my beliefs are not religious.  I don't respect having to repeat myself so much.

Don't make it a personal thing with me just because you don't want to use English words as they are commonly understood throughout the entire English speaking world. 

The only way to change this mind is to show me humans are more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God.  Then you will change my mind.

I have no idea how this connects to anything.  If you don't want to actually talk about and examine your beliefs, that's fine.  Don't bring them up.  If you just want to make friends and have people be nice to you, that's fine too.  Just post in the appropriate places - Chatter, the Shelter, etc.  Otherwise you will have mistakenly communicated to people the wrong message - that you are interested in a discussion.

 
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #282 on: October 08, 2013, 02:53:03 PM »
JB, actually it is possible to show that people are "more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God". We have done this many times on this site. The parts of the US and the countries in the world that have the fewest god-believers, ie. the highest percentages of voluntarily atheist people are by far the nicest places to live.[1]

Very atheistic countries like Iceland, Japan and Denmark, for example, have low crime rates, few homeless people, almost no gun violence, good educations and health care for all. Women can walk the streets without constant fear. People voluntarily pay high taxes to support their social services. The US as a whole has more people who believe in god, and much worse social indicators than any other industrialized country. God-believers have a hard time explaining facts like this, so they tend to ignore them.

Atheist industrialized countries have the best health care, the lowest crime rates, the fewest people in prison, the least child abuse and less family violence. Fewer divorces and family breakups, lower poverty rates, higher per capita donations to non-religious charities. Higher voter participation, more democracy, cleaner elections. Higher levels of education, higher incomes and lower unemployment. Better environmental policies. Better attitudes about women, gay people and ethnic minorities (at least in many cases). Fewer unwanted pregnancies, lower rates of STDs.

The more people "let go and let god," the worse off their overall life circumstances become. It could be that societies improve when people solve problems by rational thinking instead of prayer, and have social policies (like health care and sex education) based on real science instead of on "feelings". Or maybe god just likes atheists better.... &)
 1. I say voluntarily atheist, not places where there is a dictatorship that forces people into an ideology like China or North Korea.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 02:57:39 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #283 on: October 08, 2013, 02:56:53 PM »

I was thinking about the development within Christianity of heaven as a place where the spirit goes when someone dies. The idea was borrowed from other religions in the area. There is some hint at this type of heaven by the time of Revelation.

In Jesus time and the earliest Christians time, heaven was a bodily resurrection at the end of the world, not immediately after death. The earliest Christians were not expecting to be dead for long.

Ah, I get what you mean, though I don't really quite agree, Paul, in his letters, indicates the after death people will have spirit bodies not physical ones so the concept of a a place where spirits go after death.

Really, though, it is fair to say that each generation of Christians seems to have some who are expecting the world to end in their own lifetime or at least to be lifted bodily into heaven or something. What has happened in the mainstream of thought is that the concept of Christ returning very soon has been taken on board but gradually generations have seen that the time-scale is wrong. I see it that people have come to see that it might be that they will live to see Jesus return - at least that is what preachers have preached to keep them on their toes!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #284 on: October 08, 2013, 06:22:25 PM »
Trying to change my mind with the tactics I have found here is futile.
 
Ah, another piece of the puzzle reveals itself. I don't think you are correct in thinking that anyone is trying to change your mind - what I'm seeing are a lot of people trying quite hard to explain something far more fundamental than that. We're still working on the thinking process, not the outcomes.

Quote
I did not come here to get my mind changed I only came to show that there is another way of looking at the possibility of God's existence w/o the use of religion.

And I know you believe that you are doing just that. But you are not demonstrating a new idea, nor have you come up with a way to make it able to withstand scrutiny. You are not succeeding at your own stated mission, and you are assigning motives to others that appear to be incorrect as well.

Quote
The only way to change this mind is to show me humans are more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God.  Then you will change my mind.  So far mission failed!!! :blank:

Again with the mission talk! Where did you come up with the idea that luring you into atheism is anyone's mission? We haven't even established a common language after all these months!

Seriously junebug, you can believe whatever you want to - changing your mind about the existence of a creator deity is not part of my agenda today or any other. We don't even mean the same thing when we say "theory" or "evolution" or "human nature"- we're literally having different conversations when we try, so I'm not holding out any hope for a productive discussion about a god or the meaning of life.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline median

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #285 on: October 08, 2013, 09:29:04 PM »

I call it afterlife for a reason you know.  I'm sure there is fair and just punishment for the a$$holes of this world.  Punishments we should expect from a Loving Creator that won't make the hair on your back stand up.  I think they can pay penance for their evil ways and then come join the rest of us enjoy infinite peace and happiness.


Hmmm, these sound strikingly similar:


I call it Santa's Workshop for a reason you know.  I'm sure there is fair and just punishment for the bad little boys and girls of this world.  Punishments we should expect from a Santa that won't ruin your chimney.  I think they can pay penance for their evil ways [by not getting any presents under the tree this year] and then come join the rest of us [to] enjoy Rudolph and all the other reindeer.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #286 on: October 08, 2013, 09:52:56 PM »
Quote from: jag
Seriously junebug, you can believe whatever you want to - changing your mind about the existence of a creator deity is not part of my agenda today or any other. We don't even mean the same thing when we say "theory" or "evolution" or "human nature"- we're literally having different conversations when we try, so I'm not holding out any hope for a productive discussion about a god or the meaning of life.

One of the many things about her that pisses me off. She has no understanding, at all[1], except what is in her own mind, and her own feelings.

She's trying to give us a new[2] ideology, and she believes "we" don't understand. "We" are being defensive, arrogant, and trying to deconvert[3] her.

Why is she here? To spread the word, and in this case: her word. Sadly, she's doing a terrible job at it. I have her on ignore and she's still pissing me off. I'm befuddled that she isn't doing the same to all of you. Y'all have more patience than I do, I guess.

-Nam
 1. willful ignorance
 2. not at all new, actually quite repetitively old.
 3. though, as you've stated, no one has done that--trying to hold a conversation with her is the first step, and that step has yet to surface
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #287 on: October 08, 2013, 09:59:59 PM »
To paraphrase Woody Allen, JB thinks she is a chicken, and we need the eggs.... :)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #288 on: October 08, 2013, 10:37:16 PM »
To paraphrase Woody Allen, JB thinks she is a chicken, and we need the eggs.... :)

Somebody wring her neck and pluck her feathers already.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #289 on: October 09, 2013, 04:25:28 AM »
To paraphrase Woody Allen, JB thinks she is a chicken, and we need the eggs.... :)

Somebody wring her neck and pluck her feathers already.

-Nam

I had that done Monday.  You can't conger up any compassion.  I'd rather be a chicken than a heartless human!!!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99