Author Topic: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...  (Read 20358 times)

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Online junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #232 on: October 06, 2013, 12:53:12 PM »
Hi junebug

I'm not arguing with you or saying you are wrong.  I just don't understand how you get from point A to point B in this statement:

The existence of God gives my life meaning because my life has been one with a lot of suffering involved. 

"I have suffered, I think god exists, thus my life has meaning."   I don't get it. Can you explain further?

I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw.  I want a reason for it.  W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #233 on: October 06, 2013, 12:58:42 PM »
I don't believe in hell AA.

I don't either.  Good to find some further common ground with you Junebug72  :)

So does everyone including the Hilters and Kim Jong-ils of this world go to heaven?

If that Taliban turd who shot Malala Yousafzai in the head is in heaven when I get there I'm going to take the fucker out somehow ... will that get me expelled from heaven?


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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #234 on: October 06, 2013, 01:53:56 PM »
JB, it seems like god-believers want to have their cake on earth and eat it and have pie in the afterlife and eat it and gain no weight from either. &)

1) If you are a good person and have had a lot of undeserved suffering, god will give you a wonderful afterlife to make up for the crap you went through here on earth. This is the situation of most of humanity, especially people in poor countries who get more famine, more natural disasters, more sickness, death, pain and suffering. But we have to conveniently ignore the fact that the supposedly loving god is the one giving the poor people all the extra crap...so he will have to give them the better afterlife. :P

2) If you are a good person and have had a really good, easy life, god is responsible for all the good things you have gotten even though you did not deserve them. This is the situation for a lot of people in wealthy countries. Nice earthly life, nice afterlife. Win, win. Thanks, god. :D

3) If you are a bastard and also have a terrible life, god is giving you what you deserve here on earth. The tormented alcoholic who abuses his family and then shoots himself, for example. Bad earthly life, bad afterlife. Lose, lose. But god made all that happen.... :(

4) If you are a bastard and also have a very good life that you don't deserve (Donald Trump leaps to mind) god will give you a crappy afterlife. So there! >:(

It seems that god gives out the crap and good things to people on earth in a rather scattershot fashion. For no reason we can fathom, god gives a lot more crap to poor people than to rich people.

Since god has his own rationale that makes no sense to us humans--mysterious ways and all-- why would the afterlife have any coherent logic either? Given the way god runs things here on earth, the afterlife could be more of the same, with poor schmucks continuing to suffer more than the rich lucky bastards. Why would it be any different? Just because we wish it to be that way? I could wish to be Miss America, become a rock star, write a best-seller, be a superhero, win the lotto, live in outer space, star in a hit movie or be awarded a Nobel Prize, but so what? My wish has no relationship to reality. &)

Of course, there is no sign that any afterlife, good or bad, really exists. So you might as well imagine yourself getting your paradise JB. It won't affect your afterlife reality one way or another but if it makes you happy now, go for it... :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #235 on: October 06, 2013, 03:09:48 PM »
What is wrong with having hope in an afterlife?

Because it trivializes the life that you and others have right now.  For example, killing people in war becomes more palatable when one believes, or even holds out hope, that all the casualties will continue living elsewhere.  Suicide becomes more palatable when we think we'll continue to live afterwards.

This is especially true if we believe it's a better life afterwards, with no "hell".
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #236 on: October 06, 2013, 04:00:00 PM »
I'm not arguing with you or saying you are wrong.  I just don't understand how you get from point A to point B in this statement:
The existence of God gives my life meaning because my life has been one with a lot of suffering involved. 
"I have suffered, I think god exists, thus my life has meaning."   I don't get it. Can you explain further?
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw.  I want a reason for it.  W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

This is what upsets me the most about Christianity. junebug, you've believed this stuff for so long that you're afraid if you stop believing it will all have been a waste. My mother thinks the very same way. She doesn't even want to entertain the thought that heaven couldn't be true because it means she'll never see her father or her beloved pets again. I once asked her that if there was proof her God and her heaven wasn't real then would she want to be shown that proof. She said absolutely not.

This way of thinking isn't even based on rational thought- it's purely emotional. Christianity teaches there is a plan for everything and a reason for suffering. It claims there is a divine justice and balance will be brought about. It preys on the human desire to survive; it promises Christians and people like you, junebug[1], that there's life after death. People swallow this pill for so long they become irrational and don't even care if what they believe is true or not. People want heaven to be real so badly that they shut down critical thinking and compartmentalize conflicting beliefs for the rest of their lives.

junebug, if heaven wasn't real would you want to know or would you prefer to die believing a heaven exists?
 1. People that have a worldview strongly shaped and influenced by Christianity.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #237 on: October 06, 2013, 04:02:07 PM »
Without life, god has no meaning.



I agree, but you don't think big enough.

Without life, nothing has meaning.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #238 on: October 06, 2013, 04:19:53 PM »

I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw.  I want a reason for it.  W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Wanting it does not make it true, and knowing that you want it should warn you that it probably is not true.

Why would an afterlife be a higher purpose, or why do you need a higher purpose imposed upon you by a god?
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #239 on: October 06, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
The heaven thing? Why would one who believes in heaven think that their god did any better job of making that place, as compared to here? Even a god can't be incredibly incompetent here and absolutely perfect as a world builder there. If there is a heaven, believers will be disappointed to find out that the streets of gold are just 14k platted stips of sheet metal that are too slippery to walk on and too hot on warm days.Plus, who knows how much Abel pissed off god as the first person there. He might have eaten from the tree of afterlife and messed things up there. For all of infinity.

JC would have to stay dead for four or five days to make up for that flaw in angels, who I don't think he's in the mood. And how long would you have to wait for him to return? How many Quadrillioins of years? One? Two?
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #240 on: October 06, 2013, 06:57:40 PM »
^^^Exactly. With all the mistakes god made in this go-round, I would not put too much stock in him being able to get heaven right. The light at the end of the tunnel is god lighting his fart with a cosmic match. As soon as you get there, the excuses will start all over again:

You see, god intended for heaven to be perfect, he really did, but Ghengis Khan and Hitler crashed the pearly gates even though god told them to wait until St. Peter got the keys. So god got pissed off and cursed the gates, so everyone who passes through is given really heavy wings so that they can't fly straight. Angels crashing all the time. And there are live aborted fetuses and stillborn babies floating around all the time--yech!

And you end up with the same body you had when you died. Fat, old, ugly, bad knees, dementia, smashed up in a car wreck, blown apart in an explosion, whatever. You might have a few parts missing. Can't expect god to keep track of all those atoms and cells. He's busy! And the harps are all out of tune, but you have to keep playing them for all eternity. And the muslim martyrs really do get 72 virgins, and the noisy lovemaking 24-7 keeps everyone awake. 

Plus, the person who irritated you most of all on earth will be your cloud buddy.



Ned Ryerson. For all eternity, baby.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #241 on: October 06, 2013, 08:06:28 PM »
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw. I want a reason for it. 

(emphasis mine)

Then MAKE one.

Quote
W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Bullsh1t.  I had a hand in creating and raising two incredible kids who will have a positive effect on the world.  That is all the meaning/reason/purpose I need.

Let me ask you this: if there *is* some eternal afterlife, what possible purpose does this life hold?  Shouldn't you end this miserable existence as soon as possible if you really do believe in the eternal afterlife? (please don't, it's an academic question--but you should still answer it)
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #242 on: October 06, 2013, 08:10:52 PM »
For that matter, what meaning would the next life hold?  Meaning is not suddenly created by immortality of some sort.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #243 on: October 06, 2013, 11:43:11 PM »
Lets see...

In heaven you get anything you want, thus I guess near omnipotence, you never die, there is no bad...

Looks like the meaning of heaven is to be the most lazy thing ever imagined, even more so than a sloth.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #244 on: October 07, 2013, 01:44:43 AM »
That is so ridiculous.  Grow up median.  How about instead of this nonsense you actually point out some bad reasons.  I won't agree with you but at least it's not this worn out old game.What is wrong with having hope in an afterlife?  Remember to focus on my idea of afterlife not religious stories.   If you truly want to strip away my hope please be gentle for I am using it to get through a very difficult time right now. :'(


Merely calling my response to your claim "nonsense" or "ridiculous" (that your belief in 'God' gives your life meaning) doesn't make my rebuttal so. So, no, you grow up (neener, neener!). How childish it is for you to merely reject my response to your claim out of hand, without actually putting any rational thought into it. Maybe actually try next time? Because your saying so, doesn't make it so. For that you need rational discourse (aka - a logical response to my rebuttal).

Now, if you are willing to admit that you "have hope" in a completely fictional, mythical, non-real 'thing' for which you have no good reason to think is real, then please come out and say that here plainly. I never stated (nor did I imply or attempt to imply) that I wished to "strip away" your hope. What I want you to do is to think rationally (in a formal way) - and that means having good reasons (not illogical ones) for the things you claim to believe. This of course assumes that you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true. If you don't care then perhaps we have nothing further to talk about (b/c I actually care). But if you do care then perhaps you should ask yourself these questions:

-What is wrong with holding false beliefs?
-Is it better to hold more false beliefs or more true beliefs?
-What method should we use to determine fact from fiction?
-Is self deception a good thing?

Though there are many trials and struggles throughout life (for some more difficult than others) perhaps the answer is found in our responses to those trials (i.e. - or expectations need to be managed better) and not necessarily the trials themselves - as the Buddha once said, "There is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way." Anthony DeMello wrote a book called Awareness that is great in regards to this subject and many people throughout the world deal with trials differently than we westerners seem to. In short, the point is no one actually needs to believe in supernatural entities in order to be happy - nor should we if there is no good reason to. We should accept reality and perhaps adjust our expectation of it along the way. It's a choice, a choice of how one is going to respond and/or react to external stimuli (no deity or "heaven" required - just good plain old fashioned reality). Why think of an 'afterlife' when you can be thankful here and now?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #245 on: October 07, 2013, 03:40:02 AM »
Quote
I don't believe in hell AA.  open mouth insert foot ya did.

Amuse me, where do us evil atheists go then?

We cant go to heaven, so where do we go?
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #246 on: October 07, 2013, 03:50:18 AM »
Couple of very good points there.
 
With all the mistakes god made in this go-round, I would not put too much stock in him being able to get heaven right. The light at the end of the tunnel is god lighting his fart with a cosmic match. As soon as you get there, the excuses will start all over again.

God created everything - allegedly, the "real" world, and the "afterlife".  Now either he created this world perfect (and people screwed it up), or he created it imperfect.

If the former, then there is NO reason to assume that the afterlife will be any better, because - guess what? - there will be people there too!  If people screw up the way things should be, then the afterlife will just be more of the same.

But maybe he DIDN'T create this world right?  In which case, the question is "was the imperfection on purpose?"  If he tried for perfection, and failed, then again there is no reason to assume the afterlife will be any different.  And if he deliberately made this world bad?  Then you've got a mean-spirited god, capable of creating a perfection, but choosing not to.  I see NO reason to believe any afterlife created by a being that vindictive will be any better than this one.

Since god has his own rationale that makes no sense to us humans--mysterious ways and all-- why would the afterlife have any coherent logic either? Given the way god runs things here on earth, the afterlife could be more of the same, with poor schmucks continuing to suffer more than the rich lucky bastards. Why would it be any different?

More of the same here: if this world is subject to so many rules that make no sense, if there are so many good people getting the shaft, and so many bad people living fantastic lives, then there is no reason to assume anything will change in the next life - especially for a god whose believers claim intervenes in this world, because it means he is a-ok with that situation (or would change it).

So whichever way you cut it, if there IS an afterlife, there is NO reason to assume it will be nice.  Best we can hope for, is more of the same.  At worst?  If you've had a terrible life here, you'll have a terrible afterlife.  Except it will go on forever.

Gosh, I'm glad I'm an atheist.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #247 on: October 07, 2013, 04:34:37 AM »
Actually, Anfauglir, this question of the afterlife is sort of tackled within the Old Testament. The earlier writings, including some Psalms claim the god will deal with the bad people and thus the good people will prosper. Later, though, it gets acknowledged that the bad people will carry on so there is the start, the seed, of the idea that there has to be an afterlife in which things are put right - the good looked after and the bad punished.

Now the Judaism based on the Torah, in Jesus time the Saducees, who were often priests, did not think there was an afterlife as the Torah has  no mention of such. The more progressive people, the Pharisees to in more of the writings and saw that there might be an afterlife where thinks were put right and they went on to become the Rabbis after the destruction of the Temple in 70CE.

So, for the Abrahamic faiths there is this 'invention' of an afterlife on the basis that the god they believed in did not put right the wrongs of this world in this world so he would need another world to do so. Of course this could be true.... but since the god since to have been invented anyway it s pretty unlikely. Really, though, we ought to be looking for anything that suggests that there might be an afterlife but after so many years of religion we are just told it is true and that it has to be believed. This is an admittance that there is no evidence and no chance of any.

So, I say to June and anyone else reading this, the chances of an afterlife of perfect peace, love etc is so minimal that it is hardly worth a thought. In effect, we have today. Whatever we do today is all that counts. We have to make the most of what life we have by making sure we enjoy as much as we can of our life. Tomorrow any of us might be dead and today might be our last chance to enjoy life. Don't miss out - when we are dead that's it!
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #248 on: October 07, 2013, 05:13:39 AM »
JB, it seems like god-believers want to have their cake on earth and eat it and have pie in the afterlife and eat it and gain no weight from either. &)

1) If you are a good person and have had a lot of undeserved suffering, god will give you a wonderful afterlife to make up for the crap you went through here on earth. This is the situation of most of humanity, especially people in poor countries who get more famine, more natural disasters, more sickness, death, pain and suffering. But we have to conveniently ignore the fact that the supposedly loving god is the one giving the poor people all the extra crap...so he will have to give them the better afterlife. :P

2) If you are a good person and have had a really good, easy life, god is responsible for all the good things you have gotten even though you did not deserve them. This is the situation for a lot of people in wealthy countries. Nice earthly life, nice afterlife. Win, win. Thanks, god. :D

3) If you are a bastard and also have a terrible life, god is giving you what you deserve here on earth. The tormented alcoholic who abuses his family and then shoots himself, for example. Bad earthly life, bad afterlife. Lose, lose. But god made all that happen.... :(

4) If you are a bastard and also have a very good life that you don't deserve (Donald Trump leaps to mind) god will give you a crappy afterlife. So there! >:(

It seems that god gives out the crap and good things to people on earth in a rather scattershot fashion. For no reason we can fathom, god gives a lot more crap to poor people than to rich people.

Since god has his own rationale that makes no sense to us humans--mysterious ways and all-- why would the afterlife have any coherent logic either? Given the way god runs things here on earth, the afterlife could be more of the same, with poor schmucks continuing to suffer more than the rich lucky bastards. Why would it be any different? Just because we wish it to be that way? I could wish to be Miss America, become a rock star, write a best-seller, be a superhero, win the lotto, live in outer space, star in a hit movie or be awarded a Nobel Prize, but so what? My wish has no relationship to reality. &)

Of course, there is no sign that any afterlife, good or bad, really exists. So you might as well imagine yourself getting your paradise JB. It won't affect your afterlife reality one way or another but if it makes you happy now, go for it... :P

Nogods mankind is responsible for my suffering not God.  When humanity is through with me God will comfort me and give me rest.  God is not to blame for creating us.  Freewill is to blame and mans choice to hate and take from others.  Creating us w/o freewill would have been even more cruel.  Worst option we could have not been created at all.  Anyhow the afterlife gives life meaning.

When I think of how we are punished, if we even are, I think about my love for my son.  I could never torment him.  If he murdered someone I would love him stronger in hope that he would learn from his mistake and become a better man rehabilitated.  I believe in unconditional love!  I've been trying to give it to you and every member here to honor that belief.  Seems nobody here wants it.  :? Over dramatic I know but that's me...hopeless romantic ;) lol.

I think every member here has a distorted definition of God. If you really want to understand God first you have to consider maybe God exists.  Second don't listen to religious stuff.  I only took one thing away from Christianity and that was that God loves us.  I have developed my understanding of God by sticking to that belief.  I see more love than chaos.  I see more beauty in nature than disaster.  I see more joy than sadness and it's getting better slowly but surely.   :)

I know y'all want God to get involved I hear you.  I just wish you could see things from my POV and know that God's absence is the greatest most amazing act of love.  It shows us God has FAITH in US!

As far as your wishes having no bearing on reality didn't you help out in Africa.  That makes you a superhero in my book!
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #249 on: October 07, 2013, 05:52:54 AM »
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw. I want a reason for it. 

(emphasis mine)

Then MAKE one.

Quote
W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Bullsh1t.  I had a hand in creating and raising two incredible kids who will have a positive effect on the world.  That is all the meaning/reason/purpose I need.

Let me ask you this: if there *is* some eternal afterlife, what possible purpose does this life hold?  Shouldn't you end this miserable existence as soon as possible if you really do believe in the eternal afterlife? (please don't, it's an academic question--but you should still answer it)

I am.  My son, grandson, TR, mom, dad, family and friends make an afterlife even more desired. 

I'll find out when I get there.  I do think it has a purpose.  I know you can imagine wonders of beauty and freedom.  Maybe there is a planet out there where we live like we all wish we had here, w/o violence or chaos.  Free to roam the galaxy.  Absolute knowledge.  Freedom from hunger, sadness and pain.

I have thought about it at least three times a year for as long as I can remember until about 2 years ago.  I had two friends commit suicide and as I stood over their graves the realness of being dead was surreal.  I started fighting hard to get rid of that lingering longing.  I didn't have a death wish it was more I wish I had never been born wish.  I'm better now thanks to my belief and trust in God and always my love for my son.  I'm just to tough to give up!!! ;D

 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #250 on: October 07, 2013, 05:54:25 AM »
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw. I want a reason for it. 

(emphasis mine)

Then MAKE one.

Quote
W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Bullsh1t.  I had a hand in creating and raising two incredible kids who will have a positive effect on the world.  That is all the meaning/reason/purpose I need.

Let me ask you this: if there *is* some eternal afterlife, what possible purpose does this life hold?  Shouldn't you end this miserable existence as soon as possible if you really do believe in the eternal afterlife? (please don't, it's an academic question--but you should still answer it)

I am.  My son, grandson, TR, mom, dad, family and friends make an afterlife even more desired. 

I'll find out when I get there.  I do think it has a purpose.  I know you can imagine wonders of beauty and freedom.  Maybe there is a planet out there where we live like we all wish we had here, w/o violence, chaos or death.  Free to roam the galaxy.  Absolute knowledge.  Freedom from hunger, sadness and pain.

I have thought about it at least three times a year for as long as I can remember until about 2 years ago.  I had two friends commit suicide and as I stood over their graves the realness of being dead was surreal.  I started fighting hard to get rid of that lingering longing.  I didn't have a death wish it was more I wish I had never been born wish.  I'm better now thanks to my belief and trust in God and always my love for my son.  I'm just to tough to give up!!! ;D
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #251 on: October 07, 2013, 06:34:05 AM »
So, Junebug, what will you do if you find that the afterlife for you is actually an infinite loop of bad sitcoms?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #252 on: October 07, 2013, 06:58:32 AM »
When I think of how we are punished, if we even are, I think about my love for my son.  I could never torment him.  If he murdered someone I would love him stronger in hope that he would learn from his mistake and become a better man rehabilitated.  I believe in unconditional love!  I've been trying to give it to you and every member here to honor that belief.  Seems nobody here wants it.  :? Over dramatic I know but that's me...hopeless romantic ;) lol.

JB, I know you are going through a tough time and I really do wish you all the best for the future.
Of course no sane parent would ever torment a child so how can there be a loving god ? Do you not believe we are all gods children ?
If god existed and had the power to do/create/see everything then it should be no problem to stop people suffering.
No one with love for someone else could ever sit back and watch them suffer and yet god does.

Sadly our family friends daughter (I mentioned her a couple of pages back) has been diagnosed with leukemia.
She has already gone into hospital and started treatment.
My wife and I have taken their two dogs in as we already do dog fostering for our local animal rescue centre, and our friends  will be permanently at the hospital for the first month at least.
Doing what people can to help others adds meaning to lives.
And to god, when I die I'm coming for you you sick f**k
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 07:21:56 AM by Jonny-UK »
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #253 on: October 07, 2013, 07:25:49 AM »
As I've read JB's posts over time, I've seen more christian terminology creep in, and I think that misleads us all. So, here is a story, and perhaps JB can chime in with whether this is one of her possible ideas of an afterlife.

What if we are beings of pure energy. We, for whatever reasons of our own, choose to take a physical body for a brief time here on earth. Perhaps we're curious, perhaps we're bored, perhaps we think we will learn something from the experience. When our physical body begins to fail, we are limited in our ability to use it properly (senility, pain, whatever) because the "tool" that is our body no longer functions. Compare to a computer with a corrupted hard drive, or a screwdriver with a stripped head. When the physical body fails, we wander off in our natural energy form to continue our existence. Perhaps its the limitations of this particular physical form that gives us the inability to comprehend or remember our "real" selves. Perhaps its a choice to leave our larger understandings behind for a time. And perhaps religion is simply these weak physical form's attempts to explain vague feelings of our true existence.

Just a story? Probably, but a better one than the bible.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #254 on: October 07, 2013, 08:07:30 AM »
I am.  My son, grandson, TR, mom, dad, family and friends make an afterlife even more desired. 

How so?

Quote
I'll find out when I get there.  I do think it has a purpose.

what purpose?

Quote
I have thought about it at least three times a year for as long as I can remember until about 2 years ago.  I had two friends commit suicide and as I stood over their graves the realness of being dead was surreal.  I started fighting hard to get rid of that lingering longing.  I didn't have a death wish it was more I wish I had never been born wish.  I'm better now thanks to my belief and trust in God and always my love for my son.  I'm just to tough to give up!!! ;D

Well, I'm glad you did not entertain those thoughts--I had a brother who took his own life about 8 years ago, and it still causes me pain.  And in case it wasn't clear, I most certainly do not advocate suicide, I think it's a cowardly act (yes, my brother was cowardly in doing it, as much as it hurts to say), so when I say stuff like that it's purely academic.

In any case, you've said several times on this page alone that afterlife gives this life meaning, but you never go further than that.  What meaning?  Because all I can see is an afterlife *cheapening* this life.

Oh, and...

Quote
I think every member here has a distorted definition of God. If you really want to understand God first you have to consider maybe God exists.  Second don't listen to religious stuff.  I only took one thing away from Christianity and that was that God loves us.  I have developed my understanding of God by sticking to that belief.  I see more love than chaos.  I see more beauty in nature than disaster.  I see more joy than sadness and it's getting better slowly but surely.

Been there, done that.  I was an extremely devout RC through my childhood and early adult life, considered priesthood as I left high school.  came to similar conclusions as you did: didn't like the underlying messages of Catholicism, and sort of became non-religious but still believed in "a god who loves us," then in a more deism philosophy.  Then, after more thinking and reflection, realized that all that was simply a way to make myself feel better--and I didn't need that.

I was strong enough to eschew imaginary friends, and wholly embrace life as I'm experiencing it now--with family and (actual) friends.  My life has been better since rejecting the notions of higher powers and gods and other wishful thinking/superstitions.  I hope you can find the strength in your own human spirit to overcome your current hardships, and continue to take pleasure in being with/raising/teaching your son.  I'm sure you have a lot to offer, and many folks who love you, and a wealth of strength you're barely aware of.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #255 on: October 07, 2013, 08:08:36 AM »
So, I say to June and anyone else reading this, the chances of an afterlife of perfect peace, love etc is so minimal that it is hardly worth a thought. In effect, we have today. Whatever we do today is all that counts. We have to make the most of what life we have by making sure we enjoy as much as we can of our life. Tomorrow any of us might be dead and today might be our last chance to enjoy life. Don't miss out - when we are dead that's it!

Bingo - For The One Life We All Have, as the BHA motto goes.

And its the reason why I find hopes and dreams of an afterlife to be so negative - because it means that that person is, even if in only minor ways, accepting a bad situation now because next life, things may be better.  With the possibility of a wonderous afterlife denied us, we may work that little but harder to make THIS life all it can be.

I don't buy the plea that such hope is useful to give people strength, because it just doesn't wash when you analyse it.  The argument seems to be that "if there was no afterlife, I'd just give up", and that without the hope they would - ultimately - end their own lives.  But look carefully.  If there WAS an afterlife, and this life WAS so bereft of happiness, aren't they MORE likely to end their own lives to get there faster?

It was a big problem for Christianity in the early years - Christians were popping themselves off so quickly that the religion was in danger of going under as there were so few converts remaining.  So the elders (and why weren't THEY killing themselves, hmmm?) quickly made sure that they added the "no suicide" rule, as there is nowt in the Bible I've found to prohibit it.  And for non-Abrahamic faiths, those without a judgemental god, there is even less rationale.  Once the "eternal sin" of suicide and its judgement leaves the equation, any reason not to end your life just vanishes.

Point being, I see FAR more benefit to the world of people having NO hope of an afterlife, than there is for people having such hope.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #256 on: October 07, 2013, 08:44:59 AM »
Anfauglir,

There are recent cases of Christians wanting to get to heaven so badly that the whole church committed suicide together. I heard about an incident a few years ago on the radio. I think it was in Korea. They were all Christians and made a suicide pact at the church.

If you don't believe in this life, you will have no incentive to improve it.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #257 on: October 07, 2013, 10:33:54 AM »
I want a light at the end of the tunnel screw.  I want a reason for it.  W/o an afterlife or higher purpose it was all for nothing!!!

Is that meaning?  Or is it just relief?  What is the "higher purpose" and how is it any higher than what we are doing while alive?  And how does an afterlife make our living actions any more valuable?


When humanity is through with me God will comfort me and give me rest.

sounds like it is just relief.  From my perspective, death is also a relief from suffering. No god needed.  No heaven needed.  Just oblivion.

God is not to blame for creating us.

?  I agree, but I don't see how a theist can say this.  Even a theist who believes in evolution where god established the rules would say god is "to blame".

Freewill is to blame

?  Were we not made with free will...by god?

Creating us w/o freewill would have been even more cruel.

?  But I thought freewill was the source of suffering?  How could the elimination of suffering be worse?  And how does this idea work in heaven?  Is there suffering in heaven?  If not, is there free will?  If so, how does that work?

  Worst option we could have not been created at all.

?  What?  Do you even think about this stuff before you write it?

  Anyhow the afterlife gives life meaning

Typing it with special effects does not make it true and certainly does not explain it any better.  Neither does shouting it, using all caps or bold.  This was your claim which I asked you to clarify.  Paraphrasing it does not help.

I believe in unconditional love!

I don't.  This was one of the first things you and I discussed when you first came to thing forum.[1]  I do not believe you have adequately explained why your position was not the completely unjust horror I said it was.


I've been trying to give it to you and every member here to honor that belief. 

I do not see it as an honorable belief.  I see it as a terrible, unjust belief.  My love is reserved for those who deserve it.  Without conditional love, I would love the Osama Bin Ladens and Dick Cheneys of the world.

I think every member here has a distorted definition of God.

Yeah, it must be us and totally not you.  Couldn't possibly be you.

If you really want to understand God first you have to consider maybe God exists.

Why?  There is nothing else the existence of which you must first consider as true in order to understand.  You need not consider chemistry as true to understand it.  You need not consider atoms exist to understand atomic theory.  You need not consider black holes exist to understand them.  Why so of god?


Second don't listen to religious stuff.

You are not going to like me saying this, but what you are doing is asking us to listen to your religious stuff. 


I only took one thing away from Christianity...

why would you take anything xianity has to say about anything as reliable?  Why that one morsel? 

God's absence is the greatest most amazing act of love.  It shows us God has FAITH in US!

Sorry, again.  This is completely ass backwards.  It is exactly saying that an able parent completely abandoning a child is a great act of love.  It's not even a simile.  It is the same thing. 

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #258 on: October 07, 2013, 10:43:32 AM »
the Korean church sounds like Jim Jones in Guyana. Horrible. Major problem with telling people that this life is just a temporary way station to the good stuff. How do you convince people to wait here?

We have folks coming to this site telling us that it doesn't matter that god doesn't heal amputees, because this imperfect world with all its problems is just an illusion and the flawed body you have now is not your real self. You have this immortal soul that will be perfectly healed in the afterlife. But you are not supposed to leave this fake life and start your perfect afterlife early, because god loves you and......wants you to suffer here longer?

Whaaaa? AFTERLIFE MAKES NO SENSE.

I remember a woman yelling at me, years ago when she found out I was an atheist: "You think this life is IT?" Uhh. Yeah. You think this life is not IT? Then what is this life? The practice run, dress rehearsal for heaven? If that is the case, then heaven would have to be a lot like this life or else what are we practicing and rehearsing for? You don't practice bowling to dance in a ballet. You don't rehearse playing in a rock concert to do Shakespeare. So why have the practice life be so radically different from the afterlife?
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #259 on: October 07, 2013, 10:51:38 AM »
junebug72, would you mind describing your view of the afterlife again, or pointing the post(s) where you did out to me?
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #260 on: October 07, 2013, 12:01:43 PM »
It was a big problem for Christianity in the early years - Christians were popping themselves off so quickly that the religion was in danger of going under as there were so few converts remaining.  So the elders (and why weren't THEY killing themselves, hmmm?) quickly made sure that they added the "no suicide" rule, as there is nowt in the Bible I've found to prohibit it.  And for non-Abrahamic faiths, those without a judgemental god, there is even less rationale.  Once the "eternal sin" of suicide and its judgement leaves the equation, any reason not to end your life just vanishes.
Is there a source for this?  I was unaware of mass suicides by early Christians.
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