Author Topic: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...  (Read 16298 times)

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #145 on: September 29, 2013, 08:04:52 AM »
25% of this earth has always been plenty with room to spare.  Things like head lice and bacteria influence us to be clean.  As long as mankind continues to pollute the earth you can not blame a god for all disease.   Mankind has brought about much of their own discomforts!  Natural disasters shape and nourish our planet.  It is still better than Mars.

This is fair.
But if this "god" is omnipotent and does not help humanity, i find it not worthy of worship, as any task would be nothing to it.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #146 on: September 29, 2013, 10:17:36 AM »
Perhaps God must follow the laws of physics as well.  My "theory" is that there are physical laws that we may not be aware of that even a god must adhere to.    What I mean is everything must be Exactly like it has been and is now for life to be what it is.  Take one thing out and we would not be what we are.  I know that in my life for every trial there are 20 x's as much joy to be thankful for.  You all say you can appreciate life w/o a god involved but it don't sound much like appreciation to me.   I am thankful for all the blessings in my life and for the tragedies I am thankful as well because it has made me compassionate, empathetic and wise.   Everything that has happened in my life has prepared me for the battle I face now.  I think w/o the bad we would not even know or appreciate the good.  There is a balance there.  That balance is why my belief in God stays strong.

I'm sure that, for you, this is quite true. However it is just not everyone's experience. For example, my life was turned upside down by the disease, Multiple Sclerosis. In a few short weeks I went from healthy active guy to always tired wheelchair guy - oh, and with a young family. We didn't need to god to help out - if a god can do so - but friends and family and though I had to retire from work and so on, we have managed to keep going since. People and help from medical science is what gets us along, not imaginary gods.

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25% of this earth has always been plenty with room to spare.  Things like head lice and bacteria influence us to be clean.  As long as mankind continues to pollute the earth you can not blame a god for all disease.   Mankind has brought about much of their own discomforts!  Natural disasters shape and nourish our planet.  It is still better than Mars.

I do understand the definition of "argument from ignorance".  I am saying that is the atheist opinion and my theist opinion is not the same.  It is a very convenient accusation in a debate.  Believe it or not my opinion is just as valuable as any of yours!  The term itself was probably created by an atheist to give theist a hard time, not a bad thing just saying.  Perhaps my use of the words "any other way" was over stepping it but to say I see intelligence in our existence is not an ignorant thing to say and it does not alone explain why I believe in a Loving Higher Power.

Well, June, people have tried to explain this to you, shown you a website that explains it so I wonder if you really don't want to understand the concept. In a logical argument, one takes premises, like the existence of life, and tried to come to some conclusion. Now, maybe we have some evidence, that life seems to have evolved - we have lots of this so we can easily conclude this. So the next step, the crucial one, is where did the life on earth come from? The answer is we don't know. We have ideas - it could have been seeded in meteors, it could have arisen naturally in the conditions of early earth with water, minerals and lightning (experiments support this idea to some extent). However, we don't know, i.e we are ignorant at this point, so we can't jump in and say 'this is the answer' whatever we choose as an answer, a god or some chemical action. We have some evidence for the latter but no evidence at all for the former.

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Anfauglir it is actually easier to explain than a religious god.  As far as their stories go I think we unanimously agree they don't back up anything.  No I don't have preposterous stories to back up my beliefs I have MOTHER NATURE.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #147 on: September 29, 2013, 10:39:45 AM »
Perhaps God must follow the laws of physics as well. ...

So, "God" is just a big alien?
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #148 on: September 29, 2013, 10:53:52 AM »
One of the ways I look at religion is this. That it is a model for humans to attempt to understand their world. Each person's model helps them cope, helps explain the unexplainable, and generally makes their lives easier. The problem, as I see it, is that many people think their model isn't a model at all. They believe that their model is actual, factual, un-deniable reality. The problem, for me, isn't that people have a particular model. Its that they insist we all must see the world through their model or else. Or that people become so invested in their particular model that they can't see any other possibility.

Another problem with religion, for me, is language. People use the word "god" in trillions of different ways. From a father figure in the sky who looks like Santa Clause, to an amorphous spirit, to simply nature, and everything in between. It makes it difficult to understand where people are coming from. Some christians I know, perhaps a little like Junebug, don't see god in the traditional christian fashion. When I delve into details with them, it doesn't sound all that different from some of my pagan friends, or other more new age or nature-like philosophical bents.

The word "god" has baggage to it. Junebug, I'll use you as an example if you don't mind. When you use the word "god" to describe your belief, it probably makes it easier to discuss with any other theist, of any other kind. When used around atheists it might be getting in the way of conversation, because it carries with it, at least for us westerners, the image of a christian father figure in the sky, and the really heavy baggage of the extremist christians who seem to have taken over the republican party these days. I know that this is not the god you're discussing. But when I see the word "god," it is still my first thought, and therefore makes it a little harder to figure out where you're coming from.

It reminds me a little of some pagans I know out west. One of them insists on calling herself a witch, regardless of what people she's hanging out with. With other pagans, that word has positive connotations. With extremist christians, it does not. So she invites both inclusion, and exclusion, by her choice of that word. Ditto with atheist, as opposed to using non-believer, or secular humanist, or skeptic, or whatever. Each choice of label carries with it some inherent assumptions, that differ with the various audiences.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #149 on: September 29, 2013, 12:27:32 PM »
Quite right, Traveller! In a predominately Western forum, people are going to think of 'god' as the god of one of the Abrahamic religions that are, perhaps, the commonest in the West. If no a Santa Claus figure, it's definitely the ominmax type deity we think of. So even if a Hindu came along and talked about god we would probably get this wrong.

So far as June is concerned, it seems clear enough to me that rather than talking about any of the omni-gods, she is talking about something much nearer to 'Mother Nature'. Maybe it is something we ought to get new members to do - post and intro in which the new member explains their understanding of their god (mods note!)  so that we all know what we are tlaking about when a member uses the word 'god'.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #150 on: September 29, 2013, 01:41:46 PM »
JB, you have an optimistic outlook and that will sustain you. It is very encouraging that there are people like you in the world. 

However, not everyone has the experience of a loving creator taking care of them. In fact, many people who devoutly believed in a loving and powerful creator have suffered so badly that they could never recover. Hurricanes and floods wash away communities and the people who live through it never regain all they lost. War and natural disaster destroys cities and leaves the survivors permanently disfigured by burns, blinded, maimed, brain damaged, addicted to drugs, etc. You may say that it is human beings who make war, and that disasters shape the planet, but the people who suffer the most are the children and babies--and the loving creator does nothing about it.

For most of human history, the loving creator stood by and watched as millions died from Mother Nature: infections, childbirth complications, plague, typhoid, smallpox and cholera. "Being clean" in the 1300's could not possibly prevent disease, because nobody knew about germs yet.  Even today, most of the deaths from tropical diseases like malaria and river blindness affect babies and children the worst--and they have nothing to do with not being clean. Many diseases are genetic and we can't prevent them because we don't even know the causes.  How does all that suffering and death, especially children and babies, have a positive outcome?

Accidents that nobody could prevent cause much suffering: a car spins out of control on slick pavement and a family dies; a tree blows over in a storm and destroys a house; a forest fire caused by lightning kills or displaces hundreds of animals; a locust swarm damages a village's crops; a mentally ill person hears voices that say kill the neighbors, and he does. We have to force a positive spin on these things, because they are not positive at all.

I don't think every cloud has a silver lining.  That is why we have to take care of each other as best as we can. In every country we need good science, good medical care, good education, good infrastructure, good police forces and good leaders, because, unfortunately there is no loving creator watching our backs. We are on our own.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #151 on: September 30, 2013, 05:37:15 AM »

I'm sure that, for you, this is quite true. However it is just not everyone's experience. For example, my life was turned upside down by the disease, Multiple Sclerosis. In a few short weeks I went from healthy active guy to always tired wheelchair guy - oh, and with a young family. We didn't need to god to help out - if a god can do so - but friends and family and though I had to retire from work and so on, we have managed to keep going since. People and help from medical science is what gets us along, not imaginary gods.

Well, June, people have tried to explain this to you, shown you a website that explains it so I wonder if you really don't want to understand the concept. In a logical argument, one takes premises, like the existence of life, and tried to come to some conclusion. Now, maybe we have some evidence, that life seems to have evolved - we have lots of this so we can easily conclude this. So the next step, the crucial one, is where did the life on earth come from? The answer is we don't know. We have ideas - it could have been seeded in meteors, it could have arisen naturally in the conditions of early earth with water, minerals and lightning (experiments support this idea to some extent). However, we don't know, i.e we are ignorant at this point, so we can't jump in and say 'this is the answer' whatever we choose as an answer, a god or some chemical action. We have some evidence for the latter but no evidence at all for the former.

Wheels I'm so very sorry about you having this terrible disease.  I wish the Power that brought us to be would heal our diseases too.  I wish we lived in constant euphoria.  I've never been healed in this way either.  Where I feel the love is within in my soul or mind as you would call it.  I have this other theory where I believe if we stopped hurting each other and I mean the whole at least 90% of humanity we will be blessed with better health and  almost no suffering.  I will never know if this theory is true or false because I am not hopeful that humanity is up for the challenge.  I think we owe it to ourselves but I have to get 7 billion people to agree; a very daunting task indeed but I will continue to try so that I might live to see the day when disease no longer exists.  There is a song by Nickelback that is very similar "If Everyone Cared".  It was the first time I didn't feel so alone in my beliefs.  Not a big Back fan but I love that song. 

As far as the concept of y'all's term I get it and can not possibly explain any better why I do not concede than I did in my last post.  We will just have to agree to disagree on that subject.


you can use two apostrophes w/o getting red squigglies   :laugh:
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #152 on: September 30, 2013, 05:46:01 AM »
Junebug

It seems a bit strange that you would want to ban the ot which Jesus believed in. do you still want to ban it?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #153 on: September 30, 2013, 05:49:22 AM »
One of the ways I look at religion is this. That it is a model for humans to attempt to understand their world. Each person's model helps them cope, helps explain the unexplainable, and generally makes their lives easier. The problem, as I see it, is that many people think their model isn't a model at all. They believe that their model is actual, factual, un-deniable reality. The problem, for me, isn't that people have a particular model. Its that they insist we all must see the world through their model or else. Or that people become so invested in their particular model that they can't see any other possibility.

Another problem with religion, for me, is language. People use the word "god" in trillions of different ways. From a father figure in the sky who looks like Santa Clause, to an amorphous spirit, to simply nature, and everything in between. It makes it difficult to understand where people are coming from. Some christians I know, perhaps a little like Junebug, don't see god in the traditional christian fashion. When I delve into details with them, it doesn't sound all that different from some of my pagan friends, or other more new age or nature-like philosophical bents.

The word "god" has baggage to it. Junebug, I'll use you as an example if you don't mind. When you use the word "god" to describe your belief, it probably makes it easier to discuss with any other theist, of any other kind. When used around atheists it might be getting in the way of conversation, because it carries with it, at least for us westerners, the image of a christian father figure in the sky, and the really heavy baggage of the extremist christians who seem to have taken over the republican party these days. I know that this is not the god you're discussing. But when I see the word "god," it is still my first thought, and therefore makes it a little harder to figure out where you're coming from.

It reminds me a little of some pagans I know out west. One of them insists on calling herself a witch, regardless of what people she's hanging out with. With other pagans, that word has positive connotations. With extremist christians, it does not. So she invites both inclusion, and exclusion, by her choice of that word. Ditto with atheist, as opposed to using non-believer, or secular humanist, or skeptic, or whatever. Each choice of label carries with it some inherent assumptions, that differ with the various audiences.

I could not agree with you more Traveler.  This was pointed out to me in another thread and I said I would stop using the name God.  I have not stopped it seems to be the natural name to use.  I use it mainly because I want any Christian that reads my posts to know I'm talking about the same god with a different understanding of that god's purpose and personality.  I am not trying to confuse you or anybody else.  Jag was able to understand me and I guess I'm asking that you try to think outside the box as well.  I do use different names when it seems appropriate but I just can't stop saying God for the reason I just described.  I do hope you understand.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #154 on: September 30, 2013, 06:12:22 AM »
Junebug

It seems a bit strange that you would want to ban the ot which Jesus believed in. do you still want to ban it?

I know you are new so I'm going to help you out here.  This is off topic.  You are more than welcome to PM me with any questions you have or start a thread of your own.  They are kind of serious about staying on topic. ;)

I will PM my answer to you. 
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #155 on: September 30, 2013, 07:03:58 AM »
^^^(Channeling godbotherer): But, but, but... free will! And original sin! And Satan! And stuff!

Still doesn't work for an all-loving god.  My children can choose to obey me, or not - doesn't mean I will immediately kick them out of the house and heap innumerable health problems on them, and ensure that everything they do from that point on is a struggle until they come crawling back (and even then I won't guarantee them an immediate return to the good times, I'll make them wait anything up to 80 years before the good times roll.  Really can't see the love in Yahweh.

Non-biblical gods, if anything, come off even worse, as they don't even have the "backup" of a Genesis tale as excuse, or an adversary to be thwarting their loving goals.  For those gods, it has to be explained why they would choose to create all the things nogods lists.

*Theist mode activate*
Yeah, but all people are evil, so its good for god to punish us, because a rib woman ate a fruit because of a talking snake.
Give your heart to jesus and eat his flesh and you will be saved forever!

Like I say though, doesn't work for non-Abrahamic gods.  At least Yahweh has an excuse for adding all the bad stuff into the world - any other professed god has to explain why those things exist, without at the same time revealing itself as an ass-hat (nice expression, BTW!)
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #156 on: September 30, 2013, 08:33:57 AM »
Like I say though, doesn't work for non-Abrahamic gods.  At least Yahweh has an excuse for adding all the bad stuff into the world - any other professed god has to explain why those things exist, without at the same time revealing itself as an ass-hat (nice expression, BTW!)

No problem, ass-hat is a good one ;D.

*theist mode activate*
Our god is above humans, and made us all, therefore he is moral regardless of what he does. Ohh, and Yahweh is so fake, Allah is better, you get virgins.
*deactivate*

I have actually had theists say similar things on the WWGHA blog...
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #157 on: September 30, 2013, 10:36:42 AM »
...Ohh, and Yahweh is so fake, Allah is better, you get virgins...

As a slight aside, and perhaps worthy of its own topic, this "heaven with 72 virgins" thing REALLY pisses me off!!! I have a hard time coming up with a more hateful view towards women. Any man who would want to hurt (yes, getting de-virgined HURTS for most women) is hateful, arrogant, and doesn't give a damn about women. And what happens when his 72 virgins have been deflowered? Do they automatically become virgins again? ARG!!! It makes my blood BOIL!!!
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #158 on: September 30, 2013, 10:47:45 AM »
...Ohh, and Yahweh is so fake, Allah is better, you get virgins...

As a slight aside, and perhaps worthy of its own topic, this "heaven with 72 virgins" thing REALLY pisses me off!!! I have a hard time coming up with a more hateful view towards women. Any man who would want to hurt (yes, getting de-virgined HURTS for most women) is hateful, arrogant, and doesn't give a damn about women. And what happens when his 72 virgins have been deflowered? Do they automatically become virgins again? ARG!!! It makes my blood BOIL!!!

*More theist mode*
Be quiet lesser being, put on your hijab, get in the kitchen and make me a non-pork sandwich!
Meanwhile i will get my 7 other wives to destroy an embassy or something...After i have raped them.
*off*

Yeah, I hate how people can be so arrogant to people just because of their gender. (and gays, minorities, etc.)
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #159 on: September 30, 2013, 11:09:37 AM »
...Ohh, and Yahweh is so fake, Allah is better, you get virgins...

As a slight aside, and perhaps worthy of its own topic, this "heaven with 72 virgins" thing REALLY pisses me off!!! I have a hard time coming up with a more hateful view towards women. Any man who would want to hurt (yes, getting de-virgined HURTS for most women) is hateful, arrogant, and doesn't give a damn about women. And what happens when his 72 virgins have been deflowered? Do they automatically become virgins again? ARG!!! It makes my blood BOIL!!!

They are supposed to be 60 cubits tall and 7 cubits wide though. I'm not sure that having even one 27 meter tall wife is really a reward, you would not want to piss her off...

Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #160 on: September 30, 2013, 11:11:16 AM »
Screwtape I think many theist have had some trouble with the karma system +1 atheist.  I bet there is not one atheist here that has more thumbs downs than ups.

It is tough to gage.  There was a member named Davedave.  I cannot say for sure - for a long time, we did not use the karma system - but I think he would have been on the negative side and he was an atheist. 

But beside that, the problem theists have is their arguments suck.  Their entire world view depends on fallacies and contra-factual statements.  So they provide few opportunities to reward them and many to smite.


There have been times I felt I earned some thumbs ups but none were given.

Join the club.  There have been occasions I've spent hours on a post, which was in my estimation as brilliant as anything I've ever conceived, and received not a single Darwin.  And then some offhand comment I post gets 3.  The masses have weird taste.




What I mean is everything must be Exactly like it has been and is now for life to be what it is.  Take one thing out and we would not be what we are.

In other words, "if things had been different, things would be different."  Not a particularly compelling argument for a god. 

You know, the Yankees had a tough season this year.  But if Jeter hadn't been injured and if CC Sabathia hadn't sucked, and about a thousand other things had been different, then, man, their season would have been totally different.  I guess that means there must be a god guiding the MLB.

(do you see the parallel argument? Same logic & reasoning, different context.  I hope you see how absurd it is.)

Things like head lice and bacteria influence us to be clean.

You did it again.  You have causality completely reversed.  Clean is not in an of itself a virtue or an ends.  Bacteria and lice are not the means to encourage it.  We stay clean to avoid bacteria and lice because bacteria and lice cause health problems for us.  Without bacteria and lice - or other similar health threats - clean is irrelvant.


I do understand the definition of "argument from ignorance". 

You don't.  I promise you, swear on my grave, you do not understand it at all.  Not even a little.  I am not sure it is possible for a person to understand it less.  That is how far away you are.


Believe it or not my opinion is just as valuable as any of yours!

If value is determined by how much the opinion holder adores the opinion, then I agree.  In fact, if that were how it was defined - and I think you tend to define it that way - then your opinions would be the most valuable.  But not if value is determined by how closely an opinion reflects reality.

 
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Offline William

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #161 on: September 30, 2013, 11:16:26 AM »
As a slight aside, and perhaps worthy of its own topic, this "heaven with 72 virgins" thing REALLY pisses me off!!!

I'm glad you spoke up Traveler:

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Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #162 on: September 30, 2013, 12:24:07 PM »
...Ohh, and Yahweh is so fake, Allah is better, you get virgins...

As a slight aside, and perhaps worthy of its own topic, this "heaven with 72 virgins" thing REALLY pisses me off!!!

Right on Traveler.  However, hadn't I heard somewhere that there was a possible mistranslation and that the word "virgins" was used when it should have been "raisins?"  (now 72 27-meter-tall RAISINS would be impressive!!)
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #163 on: September 30, 2013, 01:37:23 PM »
I think the translation was 72 "Virginians"... So, Thomas Jefferson and Robt E Lee have been kicking Mo's ass for centuries
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #164 on: September 30, 2013, 02:15:26 PM »
Without God, life has no meaning, no purpose, no destiny
Keeping it simple, would it be fair to say that this statement only makes sense if you assume there was an intelligence behind our species?
That is, that an intelligence created us for a reason so therefore there is a meaning to life (life would mean our whole species in this case).
If, like me, you believe we are here due to random events coupled with evolution then there is no meaning to life as there is no intelligence behind life, it just happened.
Our lives, of course, have a lot of meaning to each other but this is a different stance on the meaning of life question.
We simply are, no meaning needed.
"Do I look like someone who cares what god thinks" - pinhead

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #165 on: September 30, 2013, 02:18:11 PM »
It was actually supposed to be sturgeons. Party time, dudes!

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/river-monsters/videos/massive-white-sturgeon.htm

Imagine a terrorist's face when he sees 72 of these of these bad boys lined up waiting for him.... :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #166 on: September 30, 2013, 11:16:52 PM »
It was actually supposed to be sturgeons. Party time, dudes!

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/river-monsters/videos/massive-white-sturgeon.htm

Imagine a terrorist's face when he sees 72 of these of these bad boys lined up waiting for him.... :o

The question is however, are they there to have sex with, or to eat?
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #167 on: October 01, 2013, 03:15:10 AM »
It was actually supposed to be sturgeons. Party time, dudes!

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/river-monsters/videos/massive-white-sturgeon.htm

Imagine a terrorist's face when he sees 72 of these of these bad boys lined up waiting for him.... :o

I imagine there's going to be a BBQ waiting for the terrorist, too, so he can get cooking!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #168 on: October 01, 2013, 03:27:12 AM »
It was actually supposed to be sturgeons. Party time, dudes!

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/river-monsters/videos/massive-white-sturgeon.htm

Imagine a terrorist's face when he sees 72 of these of these bad boys lined up waiting for him.... :o

I imagine there's going to be a BBQ waiting for the terrorist, too, so he can get cooking!

I thought sturgeon fish tasted bad, but their eggs are good...(Caviar ;D)
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #169 on: October 01, 2013, 06:43:48 AM »
Screwtape I think it's awfully arrogant of you to tell me what I do or do not understand.  ugh!!!  The MLB comparison was lame. 

As for 72 virgins that pisses me off too even more now that I see things from your prospective.

Anfauglir's opinion don't mean squat to me and his argument is even more lame than screwtape's MLB comparison.  I should give both of you a smite for it but I've swore off smite's.  I just don't believe a lame argument deserves karma alteration.

Don't think I haven't noticed nobody here had a comment on my theory.  That is so discouraging but is the perfect example of why I do not have any faith at all in my fellow man; at least 50% of mankind anyway.  There are good people out there, they are just not in politics where we really need them.  Everybody wants things to get better but seems like so many are not willing to do what that takes.  My theory does not even mention a god.  A god is not necessary for this idea to work just limits on greed, kindness, compassion and empathy for one another.  How exasperating! :-[

I'm thinking right now if y'all are right and there is no god that maybe the reason a person like me believes in it anyway is because I don't have faith in my fellow man.  I think a person needs to have faith in something so why not a Higher Power that never lets you down.  In fact it is when mankind let's me down that the Higher Power I believe in is always there to comfort me.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Dante

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #170 on: October 01, 2013, 07:07:22 AM »
Screwtape I think it's awfully arrogant of you to tell me what I do or do not understand.  ugh!!!  The MLB comparison was lame. 

Yet instead of demonstrating that you know the fallacy, you simply "ugh" it away. Either laziness, or incompetance.

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Anfauglir's opinion don't mean squat to me and his argument is even more lame than screwtape's MLB comparison.  I should give both of you a smite for it but I've swore off smite's.  I just don't believe a lame argument deserves karma alteration.

So good to hear that other's opinions don't mean squat to you. Much like your non-reality based opinions don't mean squat to reality. BTW, that's why nobody, until now, has commented on your "theory". It's not based in reality.

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Don't think I haven't noticed nobody here had a comment on my theory. 

So your theory is that if man were better to fellow man, disease and suffering would be nearly wiped out. Really. And how would this be accomplished June? Magic? Cancers would cease to exist? Car crashes would cease to happen? Earthquakes, tidal waves, wild fires and flooding would all be a thing of the past?

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I'm thinking right now

No, you're not.

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I think a person needs to have faith in something

You perhaps, but not everyone.

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so why not a Higher Power that never lets you down.

So long as you never expect your higher power to actually do anything, you'll never be let down.

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In fact it is when mankind let's me down that the Higher Power I believe in is always there to comfort me.

 &)
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #171 on: October 01, 2013, 07:46:32 AM »
There have been times I felt I earned some thumbs ups but none were given.

Join the club.  There have been occasions I've spent hours on a post, which was in my estimation as brilliant as anything I've ever conceived, and received not a single Darwin.  And then some offhand comment I post gets 3.  The masses have weird taste.

I nearly gave you a +1 for that, just for the irony.  But then I became distracted by some shiny things.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #172 on: October 01, 2013, 07:53:43 AM »
Screwtape I think it's awfully arrogant of you to tell me what I do or do not understand. 

It's really not.  If someone does not understand something, but thinks she does, why is it arrogant to try to help her?  If you thought 2+2=120,000, you would be wrong (almost as wrong as you are about Arguments from Ignorance).  Explaining to you that you were wrong would not be arrogant.  It would be helpful.

Arrogance is when you think you are right no matter how many people tell you you are wrong and give you the right answer.   

Why do you have such a hard time with the idea that you might be wrong about something?  Other people pointing it out is one of the few ways you will ever be able to find out you are wrong and then correcting your misunderstanding.

The MLB comparison was lame. 

Why?  In what way does it deviate from your reasoning?  I may be wrong, but you have not explained to me how or in what way.  You've just said my example was lame.

Don't think I haven't noticed nobody here had a comment on my theory.

Which theory?

I think a person needs to have faith in something so why not a Higher Power that never lets you down.

You can if you want.  But that is like asking, "why not have faith in dragons that will come to your rescue?"  The obvious answer is, there will be no dragons coming to your rescue.  Your faith will be misplaced.  Similarly, if you count on higher powers to actually do things, you will be let down. 

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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #173 on: October 01, 2013, 08:05:44 AM »
Screwtape I think it's awfully arrogant of you to tell me what I do or do not understand.  ugh!!!  The MLB comparison was lame. 


Here's a thought; If someone is stating you don't understand a position, demonstrate that you do. Don't just go on about your feelings being hurt.

Do you, or do you not understand what an argument from ignorance is? If you do, demonstrate your understanding of it and why it is a bad line of thinking.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.