Author Topic: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...  (Read 15939 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2013, 10:51:42 AM »
 ;D
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2013, 03:04:16 PM »
This is is how jumping the gun and saying there is a god who created the universe will look once we have firmed up and demonstrated how it actually happened. You wouldn't explain thunder and lightning as an angry god today (I hope) and the idea of a creating god will seem that strange one day too.

I think that gun is a long way from being jumped.   Quite possibly forever.  I think that it is probably unknowable how the universe formed but,,, I will not say it definitely won't ever be learned but it seems like a real tall order to know what happened before there was space, time, physics laws and energy.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2013, 03:44:47 PM »
Many religious people have no problem thinking that there are actual living beings that existed before there were space, time, physics laws or energy. And these beings somehow managed to think, plan, communicate and create stuff out of nothing. However, they can't tell us how they know all this or show us any evidence that it ever happened. They believe in magic.

Kind of like little kids who believe in talking bears, giant beanstalks, flying dragons and fairy princesses. Too bad they make up the majority of the voting adult population in the country I live in.... :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #119 on: September 24, 2013, 03:50:43 PM »
Many religious people have no problem thinking that there are actual living beings that existed before there were space, time, physics laws or energy. And these beings somehow managed to think, plan, communicate and create stuff out of nothing. However, they can't tell us how they know all this or show us any evidence that it ever happened. They believe in magic.

Kind of like little kids who believe in talking bears, giant beanstalks, flying dragons and fairy princesses. Too bad they make up the majority of the voting adult population in the country I live in.... :P
I disagree.  I think many religious people do have a problem thinking that there are actual living beings that existed before there were space, time, physics, etc.  But rather than evaluate whether such a proposition is true or not, they go all 'faith!!!!' and just stop thinking.

Problem solved.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #120 on: September 24, 2013, 04:16:28 PM »
You have a point.

A lot of religious teaching, esp of the fundy variety, is about not trusting your brain, not thinking too much, not asking too many questions. Clearly, the fear is that if people start being critical, applying basic common sense, and exposing logical holes in the religion, the whole "faith" thing will collapse.

Because it really is that fragile. Some even advise that members not expose themselves to anything but religious literature, should avoid nonbelievers, and that questions and doubts that arise in a believer's mind are traps put there by Satan.

 :?"But Pastor, how do we know there is a Satan?"

 :angel:"Look around you and see all the suffering and sin in the world? That is because of Satan."

 :?"But how do we know that god didn't make the suffering himself?"

 :angel:"Because the bible tells us that god is good."

 :?"But if god is good, why is there suffering?"

 :angel:"The bible tells us that man listened to Satan and thereby brought the suffering into the earth."

 :? "Why did god let that happen?"

 :angel: "So he could send us his only son as a sacrifice to show us his love."

 :? "That sounds like a trick. Maybe Satan put that in the bible to fool us?"
 
 :police: "That's enough for today, time to go read your bible. You need to pray for god's help in better understanding his holy word."

&)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2013, 02:50:42 AM »
This is is how jumping the gun and saying there is a god who created the universe will look once we have firmed up and demonstrated how it actually happened. You wouldn't explain thunder and lightning as an angry god today (I hope) and the idea of a creating god will seem that strange one day too.

I think that gun is a long way from being jumped.   Quite possibly forever.  I think that it is probably unknowable how the universe formed but,,, I will not say it definitely won't ever be learned but it seems like a real tall order to know what happened before there was space, time, physics laws and energy.

Oh, a tall order, definitely.  Point being, though, that for millennia the story has been:

"We have no idea how (X) happens - clearly there is a god!!!"
<some years later>
"We now know that (X) happens because (Y) - no gods were involved.  BUT, we don't know how (X2) happens, so clearly there IS a god!!!"

Repeat ad nauseam.

Yet despite thousands of years of us finding out that the things our cave-dwelling ancestors thought were magic have perfectly natural explanations, there are those who will STILL say "ah yes, but what about (X3872)?  You still haven't shown how THAT happens!  That PROVES there is a god!!!!"
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #122 on: September 25, 2013, 06:15:16 AM »
I wonder what I'd have thought if I had been a cave woman. I've never understood the leap to "god did it," perhaps because then I immediately leap to "where the heck did god come from?" I simply can't wrap my head around the idea that a so-called complex world requires a creator, and yet an infinitely more complex creator doesn't?!?!?!?
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2013, 06:55:01 AM »
I think its understandable for the most part - way back when, people reaslly didn't know how to do anything: how anything worked.  There was no way of testing, and no resources to look at for the answer. 

If you know nothing about lightning, have no way of finding out about it, then assuming that a lightning strike is a curse from the gods becomes a whole lot more reasonable an argument.  Big catastrophic thing, coming from ther sky, when someone has been bad - and someone has ALWAYS been bad, that's the "benefit" or religion - its easy to see where "the gods" fitted into the picture.

So cavemen; the vast majority of people before Gutenberg; most people before around 1900; and many people before around 2005, I will cut some slack.  They didn't have the opportunity to investigate (or limited access to opportunity), so I can - just about - accept the leap to magic as an explanation.

These days, though, with the whole of the internet at one's fingertips, with the proliferation of books, adult education, libraries, and the like.....and you really have to choose NOT to investigate, deliberately have to choose to believe in magic. 

The tools and resources are all there today, but you have to choose to use them.  The trouble is that most religions discourage that investigation - and even the new-age woo-merchants subscribe to the "listen to your heart not your head" philosophy which is just the same "don't use the tools, don't investigate, don't REALLY question" that religion has been using for hundreds of years.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2013, 07:13:38 AM »
I wonder what I'd have thought if I had been a cave woman. I've never understood the leap to "god did it," perhaps because then I immediately leap to "where the heck did god come from?" I simply can't wrap my head around the idea that a so-called complex world requires a creator, and yet an infinitely more complex creator doesn't?!?!?!?

I don't think it is that difficult to imagine. Try to think how you did before you learned to read. You were still probably in the evolutionary thrall of "unseen agency" think. Something misplaced? It was taken. Something fell off a shelf? Could be a rat. Tombstone rocking back and forth? The dead are restless. And so forth.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #125 on: September 25, 2013, 09:26:30 AM »
I wonder what I'd have thought if I had been a cave woman. I've never understood the leap to "god did it," perhaps because then I immediately leap to "where the heck did god come from?" I simply can't wrap my head around the idea that a so-called complex world requires a creator, and yet an infinitely more complex creator doesn't?!?!?!?

For the cavepeople, the first chap to come up with some "causality" that happened to "work" (chance, luck, etc) suddenly became the smartest person in the room cave.  Whatever flowed from there, could have been the origin of god.

Grog: You know Uga, lives over in the duplex cave with the detached shed?  Heexploded in front of me when bright light flashed from sky last night... he dead but nicely roasted now.

Cronk: The flying dragon I saw the other day while I was burning this "weed" that kept growing in my garden must have something to do with it - he looked angry!  We better put out some food to keep him happy...

(one week later) Grog: this work, Cronk, I see plenty of flashes but no one has exploded.  You need any help burning off that weed again?

===>and we were off to the races!

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline epidemic

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #126 on: September 25, 2013, 10:44:35 AM »
These days, though, with the whole of the internet at one's fingertips, with the proliferation of books, adult education, libraries, and the like.....and you really have to choose NOT to investigate, deliberately have to choose to believe in magic. 

The tools and resources are all there today, but you have to choose to use them.  The trouble is that most religions discourage that investigation - and even the new-age woo-merchants subscribe to the "listen to your heart not your head" philosophy which is just the same "don't use the tools, don't investigate, don't REALLY question" that religion has been using for hundreds of years.

The problem with the internet and all those resources, is you need a solid bullshit meter.  A quick look at almost any controversial subject and you will quickly see all possible conclusions said with equal authority.

911 the pentagon was obviously struck with a missile, this is clearly a fact because video footage proves an airliner could not have crossed the whole field of view with out being caught at 32 frames per second.  Couple that with the fact that almost no one can remember anyone talking about a low flying plane at rush hour and you have a conspiracy theory.  If you dig around the corners of that story you can find the truth but it does take some doing to find out there were a bunch of wittnesses who saw the plane flying low and the camera was not taping at 32 frames per second. 

Prison planet is great at putting out and massaging data to make things look like conspiracies.  You have to dredge through tons of information to find the truth sometimes.  Like religion though I argued for months with one conspiracy nut on each key point of the 911 attacks and he always had a source of information to discredit my take on it.  well researched well versed counterpoints that on the surface looked good.


Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2013, 11:36:00 AM »
...The problem with the internet and all those resources, is you need a solid bullshit meter.  A quick look at almost any controversial subject and you will quickly see all possible conclusions said with equal authority...

^This.

Quite frankly, I think it might be harder today than back in the cave. Depending on who you hang out with, or which story you happen to see first, or which story happens to coincide with your current ideas, you're off and running with it. I find myself with not enough time to investigate every claim, so I'm sure, especially in the political arena, that I have many half-truths running around in my brain. To spend enough time to figure out the reality behind all of it would prevent me from making a living or spending any time with friends and family.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2013, 02:40:43 AM »
These days, though, with the whole of the internet at one's fingertips, with the proliferation of books, adult education, libraries, and the like.....and you really have to choose NOT to investigate, deliberately have to choose to believe in magic. 

The problem with the internet and all those resources, is you need a solid bullshit meter.  A quick look at almost any controversial subject and you will quickly see all possible conclusions said with equal authority.

That's true enough.  It comes down again to how much you want to investigate - whether you are going to accept the first source you come to, or whether you are going to question the motives and research behind it.

I was thinking more of the more striaghtforward resources though - textbooks and the like - sources of knowledge that would have been unavailable in the past.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2013, 01:17:20 PM »

The problem with the internet and all those resources, is you need a solid bullshit meter.  A quick look at almost any controversial subject and you will quickly see all possible conclusions said with equal authority.

That's true enough.  It comes down again to how much you want to investigate - whether you are going to accept the first source you come to, or whether you are going to question the motives and research behind it.

My experience leads me to believe that the average person will investigate if the claim goes against their current position, and won't investigate if the claim agrees with their current position.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2013, 04:17:24 PM »
My experience leads me to believe that the average person will investigate if the claim goes against their current position, and won't investigate if the claim agrees with their current position.
I don't think this is complete, at least with my experience.

My experience leads me to believe that the average person will investigate if the claim goes against their current position and has a noticeable effect on his/her daily life, and won't investigate if the claim agrees with their current position or the claim disagrees but has no impact on his/her daily life.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2013, 07:38:50 PM »
My experience leads me to believe that the average person will investigate if the claim goes against their current position, and won't investigate if the claim agrees with their current position.
I don't think this is complete, at least with my experience.

My experience leads me to believe that the average person will investigate if the claim goes against their current position and has a noticeable effect on his/her daily life, and won't investigate if the claim agrees with their current position or the claim disagrees but has no impact on his/her daily life.

I honestly hope your experience is more indicative of human behavior than mine.   :P
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #132 on: September 27, 2013, 03:42:13 AM »
I just realized what JB's implication that a magic elf makes golf balls go where the golfer wants them to means.  It has nothing to do with the fact that Tiger Woods played golf from the time he was 5. Or that he was coached by his dad, a golf expert. Or that he is a one in a million talent at golf (and not a very good guy in his personal life).

Magic elves are the key! If I believe in them, I, with not a whit of golfing knowledge or experience, could win the next big golf tournament! I'm quitting my college teaching job today and heading off to the nearest golf course! I'm gonna be rich! Thanks, JB!

I believe!

Thanks for proving my point for me Nogods.  Which you obviously didn't get or else you wouldn't be saying what your saying.  That's exactly my point.  The ball/earth/us needs an intelligent being with much knowledge to get in the hole/sustain life/give life.   All y'all can do with that is call it an argument from ignorance.  I'm saying the argument is not from ignorance it is from intellect.  Everything I know as a human tells me something so magnificent needs a conductor.  Like the old watch argument, you can't just throw watch components in the air and the parts fall together to make a watch it must be assembled. 

Well I guess we all fail at English because y'all haven't convinced me of anything new either so you must be abusing the language too. lol

I think we are all just stubborn. ;)

I think both arguments have merit and until proven otherwise I keep my mind open to all possibilities.  My life wouldn't change dramatically if I stopped believing in God today.  There is no threat of hell or promise of heaven where I come from to manipulate me into believing.  I believe because I have contemplated the matter for years and years and it makes sense to me intellectually to believe in a Higher Power.   I believe that Power is loving and very misunderstood and mostly used by religions to control the masses.

As far as that quote goes, it's no surprise to me my memory is terrible the week of chemo. My apologies.  I don't even remember what my point was I still don't remember saying it even after I saw it with my own two eyes. :o 

Screwtape I think many theist have had some trouble with the karma system +1 atheist.  I bet there is not one atheist here that has more thumbs downs than ups.  I'll have to admit though I've heard some bad stuff come out of some Christians here.  There have been times I felt I earned some thumbs ups but none were given. In fact I was given a thumbs down for simply and genuinely telling a fellow poster to "take care".  I've seen atheist given thumbs ups for insulting a theist real good.  I would much rather my karma be in the hands of a higher power.  Mankind can not be trusted!!!  Perhaps if it were not called karma it wouldn't bother me so much but it is.  I believe in karma, that is why I have been kind here.   

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #133 on: September 27, 2013, 08:02:33 AM »
The ball/earth/us needs an intelligent being with much knowledge to get in the hole/sustain life/give life.   All y'all can do with that is call it an argument from ignorance.  I'm saying the argument is not from ignorance it is from intellect.  Everything I know as a human tells me something so magnificent needs a conductor.  Like the old watch argument, you can't just throw watch components in the air and the parts fall together to make a watch it must be assembled. 

Well I guess we all fail at English because y'all haven't convinced me of anything new either so you must be abusing the language too. lol

I think we are all just stubborn. ;)

JB,
I'm glad to see you're back on this thread.

You are 100% correct: we are all stubborn.  No doubt about that.

Now, since I'm the one who brought it up, I feel more responsible for continuing this particular argument (although I'm *not* the most qualified).  The fact that you bring up the Watchmaker argument is actually a very good indication that your argument is, in fact, an Argument from Ignorance logical fallacy.  PLEASE NOTE: I'm not aware of how to phrase the logical fallacy differently (aside from Appeal to Ignorance) to avoid what you're taking as an epithet: ignorance.  I'm not meaning anything personal by it, and I'm not calling YOU ignorant.

Watchmaker: we know, for an undisputable fact, that a watch is a man-made machine, precision-crafted and requiring great care to construct correctly.  We know the "creation" of it is in fact intelligent design, so naturally you cannot expect to toss the pieces into the air and get a working watch.  But reversing that concept and backward-applying it to "the universe" or "the world" or "nature" is exactly the same thing as saying "I can't imagine how it could have been done without a mind behind it."

Your experience tells you intelligent design is behind creation.  That's your experience telling you you can't think of an alternative.  That *is* the Argument from Ignorance.  And it's a logical fallacy, an invalid argument.

This puts aside the fact that there are plenty of examples of design that aren't really that "intelligent."  Our food hole and air hole end *in the same hole??*  So we're in danger of choking every time we eat/drink?  What about the existence of horrible diseases (like it sounds like you, unfortunately, have first-hand experience)?  Or nasty parasites like botflies and to a lesser degree, head lice (which the variety that infect humans ONLY live on humans)?

Taking something you don't know about and pasting god to it is the definition of Argument from Ignorance.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

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Offline William

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #134 on: September 27, 2013, 09:12:06 AM »
Like the old watch argument, you can't just throw watch components in the air and the parts fall together to make a watch it must be assembled. 

It's strange that the higher power creator eternal love thingie couldn't do that with life on earth either.  It took billions of years and countless millions of dead ends and terrible extinctions to get us to where we are today :)
Git mit uns

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #135 on: September 27, 2013, 09:46:55 AM »
And it's worth pointing out, June, that for each of the instances you mention - the universe, earth and life on earth - we have pretty reasonable working idea how these things came about.

Of course for the most distant event, the arising of the universe we are still struggling though there are a number of quite possible ideas out there that would not have required and third party intelligence to allow the universe to come about. The mate-verse theory, for example, we mentioned in last week's New Scientist magazine. None of these are a concluding answer to the 'where the universe came from' but they illustrate that whilst the real answer to the question is 'we don't know' we know enough to say that it is very unlikely that it was not a natural event brought about by matter and not requiring and intelligent intervention.

We have a  much better picture for the earth - of how the sun formed and how the planets also formed from the swirling dust around the sun.  Once again, there is no need for an intervention - it happened quite on its own following the laws of physics.

Especially for evolution of life we have more evidence that almost any other scientific theory. It is not the sort of thing one can just dismiss out of hand - there's more than 100 years of hard research, fossil collecting, finding and understanding DNA etc. that points to evolution as the most likely way things happened. Of course, anyone is free to believe or not believe anything they like, but evolution isn't really a thing to believe or not believe in the same way that people don't say that about gravity. Mind, it would not need much to change this view - from near fact to junked theory would only need a couple of fossil rabbits in the wrong place in the rock strata. That in over 100 years this has not happened should show you how solid the theory of evolution is and thus how close to the truth about how life in earth changed into all the life-forms we see today.

Naturally, on this view, there is no need for a creator since the evidence points to it happening by itself. Yet a creator isn't ruled out. All we lack is the detection of such a creator. That many, many people claim to 'know' Jesus or god or Allah doesn't really count as detecting though, especially in the face of the fact that the god people claim to 'know' always agrees with them on the issues in their lives, yet, sometimes, we might expect that  part of the population might find their god disagrees with them. It sounds as though people create their own god in their heads and then, mostly, call it the name of the god in their religion. So we need some way to reliably detect a creator if we are to come up with anything other than a hypothesis that things were brought into being by a creator. Are you going to be the one to do this, June?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #136 on: September 27, 2013, 11:37:35 AM »
That's exactly my point.  The ball/earth/us needs an intelligent being with much knowledge to get in the hole/sustain life/give life.   All y'all can do with that is call it an argument from ignorance.  I'm saying the argument is not from ignorance it is from intellect.  Everything I know as a human tells me something so magnificent needs a conductor.  Like the old watch argument, you can't just throw watch components in the air and the parts fall together to make a watch it must be assembled. 
 

Are you still not getting what an argumentce from ignorance is? 'Could be' is not good evidence for 'is.' The cosmic watchmaker argument is so very weak because a we know a watch has a maker. We don't see for instance trillion and trillions of not quite right watches, more primitive watches, and pseudo watches that are eaten by other watches  to power their springs lying around.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #137 on: September 27, 2013, 11:39:25 AM »
We don't see for instance trillion and trillions of not quite right watches, more primitive watches, and pseudo watches that are eaten by other watches  to power their springs lying around.

I can only imagine a cheap Sy-fy movie about this...BRILLIANT.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2013, 04:59:44 PM »
JB, after I posted my remark about magic elves and golf, I re-read your earlier post. I misunderstood what you said. You were not saying that god or magic causes golfers to be good at golf. You were saying that there is something that governs the laws of nature, ensuring that if a person hits the golf ball a certain way, then it will go where it is supposed to go. We are in agreement there.

I am sorry that I did not get your point earlier.
 
Where we disagree is what the "something" is that governs the laws of nature. You are positing that the "something" governing the laws of nature is a kind, thoughtful, living sentient being who has a reason and purpose for humans to be on earth. You hope that this being is real and is busy running the universe for us. However, your hope is not based on any facts. I am saying that nature shows no sign of any such being and you are only guessing that it exists.

The facts: positive and negative things happen in the universe with no rhyme or reason; stars appear, go nova and burn up, destroying all planets nearby along with any life forms that may be there.  Volcanoes, hurricanes and earthquakes have gotten rid of millions of living creatures since the earth was formed. Something appears, survives hundreds, thousands or millions of years, and then goes extinct.  That's it. Over and over.

The idea that the planet earth was made especially for humans is pretty laughable when you think about it. Most of the earth is actively hostile to human survival. We humans can't see most of the earth's light spectrum. We can't hear most of the sound register. We have lousy senses of smell. We are therefore missing most of what other animals learn from the environment. We can't survive on 75% of the planet because we can't live underwater like fish. We can't digest freely available grass like grazing animals. Our bodies don't produce vitamins like other animals. We can't make food from sunlight like plants.

Over 99% of the universe is closed off to us. Even here on earth we only know a tiny percent of what goes on. Brilliantly colored birds and wonderfully scented flowers live with no human ever knowing about them. There are beautiful microscopic crystals, exquisite snowflakes and star formations that no human being will ever see. The most abundant organisms on the planet are the insects, germs, bacteria and viruses that try their best to sicken or kill us off every chance they get.

The universe is clearly not made for human beings. Don't get me wrong, we humans are pretty damn good at playing with the lousy cards we have been dealt. We have accomplished a lot of marvelous things. But this ain't no paradise.  Wouldn't a kind, loving creator have dealt their favorites a much, much better hand?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #139 on: September 27, 2013, 10:52:05 PM »
...The universe is clearly not made for human beings. Don't get me wrong, we humans are pretty damn good at playing with the lousy cards we have been dealt. We have accomplished a lot of marvelous things. But this ain't no paradise.  Wouldn't a kind, loving creator have dealt their favorites a much, much better hand?

This is one of the things that gets to me. I can EASILY imagine creating a planet that encourages peace and love and the ability to achieve one's greatest potential for ALL human beings. The number of lives that are WASTED because the people are too poor, or too sick, or too lost, to ever even begin to tap into their creativity, or intelligence, or other "gifts" is appalling. And, please, I don't mean that their lives are worthless. What I'm saying is that a loving god could/would/should have created a world where these abilities can be cultivated. Where people can grow and learn and change, rather than merely existing. Of course that happens. But in many cases it only happens for the extraordinary person, or the very lucky person. A good, loving, just god, would create a world with opportunities and encouragement for all, so that we might all flourish and blossom as enlightened beings.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2013, 11:11:22 PM »
^^^True dat.

How about a world that works with us rather than it being an uphill climb for so many? No obstructed labor, ectopic pregnancies or still births. No alcoholism or drug addiction. No gum disease. No cancer. No rabies. No malaria. No river blindness. Nobody choking to death on a piece of food at the dinner table. No crop failures or villages washed away in tsunamis. No global warming.

No wars. No war refugees. No famines. No plastic bags and bottles inside sea animals. No dogs and cats in having to be killed in shelters because nobody wants them. No children badly burned when the family's propane stove blew up. No crazy people having kids and abusing them. No crazy dictators having countries and abusing them.

Not too much to ask of an all-powerful loving god. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #141 on: September 27, 2013, 11:47:33 PM »
^^^(Channeling godbotherer): But, but, but... free will! And original sin! And Satan! And stuff!

(stops channeling, bangs head on keyboard): You know what? Forget it. Time to go write some horrible anime fanfiction; I need a fantasy chaser after all the reality in the last two posts...
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #142 on: September 28, 2013, 03:22:12 AM »
^^^(Channeling godbotherer): But, but, but... free will! And original sin! And Satan! And stuff!

Still doesn't work for an all-loving god.  My children can choose to obey me, or not - doesn't mean I will immediately kick them out of the house and heap innumerable health problems on them, and ensure that everything they do from that point on is a struggle until they come crawling back (and even then I won't guarantee them an immediate return to the good times, I'll make them wait anything up to 80 years before the good times roll.  Really can't see the love in Yahweh.

Non-biblical gods, if anything, come off even worse, as they don't even have the "backup" of a Genesis tale as excuse, or an adversary to be thwarting their loving goals.  For those gods, it has to be explained why they would choose to create all the things nogods lists.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #143 on: September 29, 2013, 04:27:44 AM »
^^^(Channeling godbotherer): But, but, but... free will! And original sin! And Satan! And stuff!

Still doesn't work for an all-loving god.  My children can choose to obey me, or not - doesn't mean I will immediately kick them out of the house and heap innumerable health problems on them, and ensure that everything they do from that point on is a struggle until they come crawling back (and even then I won't guarantee them an immediate return to the good times, I'll make them wait anything up to 80 years before the good times roll.  Really can't see the love in Yahweh.

Non-biblical gods, if anything, come off even worse, as they don't even have the "backup" of a Genesis tale as excuse, or an adversary to be thwarting their loving goals.  For those gods, it has to be explained why they would choose to create all the things nogods lists.

*Theist mode activate*
Yeah, but all people are evil, so its good for god to punish us, because a rib woman ate a fruit because of a talking snake.
Give your heart to jesus and eat his flesh and you will be saved forever!
Praise the lord and bless you.
*Theist mode deactivate*

God is an asshat...(if he existed...)
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #144 on: September 29, 2013, 07:41:34 AM »
Perhaps God must follow the laws of physics as well.  My "theory" is that there are physical laws that we may not be aware of that even a god must adhere to.    What I mean is everything must be Exactly like it has been and is now for life to be what it is.  Take one thing out and we would not be what we are.  I know that in my life for every trial there are 20 x's as much joy to be thankful for.  You all say you can appreciate life w/o a god involved but it don't sound much like appreciation to me.   I am thankful for all the blessings in my life and for the tragedies I am thankful as well because it has made me compassionate, empathetic and wise.   Everything that has happened in my life has prepared me for the battle I face now.  I think w/o the bad we would not even know or appreciate the good.  There is a balance there.  That balance is why my belief in God stays strong.

25% of this earth has always been plenty with room to spare.  Things like head lice and bacteria influence us to be clean.  As long as mankind continues to pollute the earth you can not blame a god for all disease.   Mankind has brought about much of their own discomforts!  Natural disasters shape and nourish our planet.  It is still better than Mars.

I do understand the definition of "argument from ignorance".  I am saying that is the atheist opinion and my theist opinion is not the same.  It is a very convenient accusation in a debate.  Believe it or not my opinion is just as valuable as any of yours!  The term itself was probably created by an atheist to give theist a hard time, not a bad thing just saying.  Perhaps my use of the words "any other way" was over stepping it but to say I see intelligence in our existence is not an ignorant thing to say and it does not alone explain why I believe in a Loving Higher Power.

Anfauglir it is actually easier to explain than a religious god.  As far as their stories go I think we unanimously agree they don't back up anything.  No I don't have preposterous stories to back up my beliefs I have MOTHER NATURE. 
 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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