Author Topic: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...  (Read 22093 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #290 on: October 09, 2013, 04:33:48 AM »
^^ See?  That took *way* less time to type than the outraged response you wrote beforehand, didn't it?  Why not just write that?

That wasn't outrage that was pointing out the obvious.  Just like there is no need for outrage there is no need to condescend.  You folks are more sensitive than I am, especially NAM.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #291 on: October 09, 2013, 05:09:14 AM »
Yes screw I glanced at it but didn't really get down in it. 

Are you saying I should no longer put in any effort with you since it will not be reciprocated?

You abandoned me

Huh?  In what way did I abandon you?

I also despise arrogance.

I don't think I was arrogant.  Honest to glob. I don't see it.

If you ever want we can meet in the middle with two open minds.

I don't know what "meet in the middle" means. 

I did not come here to get my mind changed

I guess you didn't come here with an open mind, then.  That's what that means.  It also means you will not learn anything.  When you learn things, it changes your mind.   


I only came to show that there is another way of looking at the possibility of God's existence w/o the use of religion. 

So, you came here to show us, but not see anything yourself.  You came here to teach, but not to learn.  You came to speak, but not to listen.

That seems rather one sided, don't you think?  A little presumptuous.  That could even be called arrogant, I think.  Now, you could take that as a personal insult, or you could take it a possible constructive criticism.  Someone who genuinely cares about the truth and becoming a better person will do a little self reflection.

Again my beliefs are not religious.  I don't respect having to repeat myself so much.

Don't make it a personal thing with me just because you don't want to use English words as they are commonly understood throughout the entire English speaking world. 

The only way to change this mind is to show me humans are more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God.  Then you will change my mind.

I have no idea how this connects to anything.  If you don't want to actually talk about and examine your beliefs, that's fine.  Don't bring them up.  If you just want to make friends and have people be nice to you, that's fine too.  Just post in the appropriate places - Chatter, the Shelter, etc.  Otherwise you will have mistakenly communicated to people the wrong message - that you are interested in a discussion.

Words are tricky!!!  Since you are so familiar with the word religious you should know it doesn't apply to me.  Maybe you should read the definition more carefully.  Religion is when somebody says they believe in god and starts making rules and traditions for society they have no clue about.  I admit often to having no absolute knowledge.  Love guides me.

People with opposing opinions can be friends. They can care about each other.  At least I can.

I have learned a lot here screwtape.  What I haven't learned is that God's existence is impossible.  Here y'all keep coming up short.   I have listened and learned.  Y'all don't show the same respect.  Y'all are the ones claiming absolute knowledge.  I don't even know how you get off saying I don't listen.  I have replied to every question, every statement.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #292 on: October 09, 2013, 05:33:11 AM »
JB, actually it is possible to show that people are "more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God". We have done this many times on this site. The parts of the US and the countries in the world that have the fewest god-believers, ie. the highest percentages of voluntarily atheist people are by far the nicest places to live.[1]

Very atheistic countries like Iceland, Japan and Denmark, for example, have low crime rates, few homeless people, almost no gun violence, good educations and health care for all. Women can walk the streets without constant fear. People voluntarily pay high taxes to support their social services. The US as a whole has more people who believe in god, and much worse social indicators than any other industrialized country. God-believers have a hard time explaining facts like this, so they tend to ignore them.

Atheist industrialized countries have the best health care, the lowest crime rates, the fewest people in prison, the least child abuse and less family violence. Fewer divorces and family breakups, lower poverty rates, higher per capita donations to non-religious charities. Higher voter participation, more democracy, cleaner elections. Higher levels of education, higher incomes and lower unemployment. Better environmental policies. Better attitudes about women, gay people and ethnic minorities (at least in many cases). Fewer unwanted pregnancies, lower rates of STDs.

The more people "let go and let god," the worse off their overall life circumstances become. It could be that societies improve when people solve problems by rational thinking instead of prayer, and have social policies (like health care and sex education) based on real science instead of on "feelings". Or maybe god just likes atheists better.... &)
 1. I say voluntarily atheist, not places where there is a dictatorship that forces people into an ideology like China or North Korea.

Japanese are spiritual people.  Isn't that where Buddhism originated.  Have you talked to every person to find this out?  I think they are spiritual people but not religious in those countries.  If not it is to me not freedom from God but freedom from religion that makes these countries appealing.  Religion does get in the way of progress and that is exactly what our forefathers fought to obtain.  Freedom from the tyranny of religion, oh and taxes. 

There is more than feelings behind my beliefs nogods and I'm the one accused of not listening.   :?  I think God likes kindness over greed better.  I think God loves us all!!! 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #293 on: October 09, 2013, 05:51:42 AM »
Yes I gave smites.  Oh well I tried.  I'm confused.  Is this a website of open discussion or change your mind site or leave?

Jag one more thing, you sound like a militant atheist, believer disrespector, so disappointing.  I have been called harmless so why do I bother y'all so much.  I just don't get it.  I don't do any of the things you claim to despise about religion. 

Oh well I've got to go see the DR this morning.  Maybe one day I will get off y'all's one nerve and quit pissing off Nam.

HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!  PEACE PLEASE. :laugh:


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #294 on: October 09, 2013, 06:21:34 AM »
Junebug.

It is clear that you are making it up as you go along and that your knowledge and understanding of the world, society and religion is simply something that you "feel": There is no evidence. I suspect that this is exactly the reason you think there is a god of some sort. Whatever your god is, he or she is not the god of the Bible: you have invented this god and are worshipping your own invention... No heaven for you!



Japanese are spiritual people

No, they are not. http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0002.html

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Isn't that where Buddhism originated.

No it isn't. You are about 3,000 miles out... Buddha is believed to have been born in north-east India near the foothills of the Himalayas. Buddhism is a minority religion in Japan.

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Have you talked to every person to find this out?

As a matter of fact I have. I was exhaustive in my 30 years of research using a team of 250 well-qualified people. I now have a list of all their names, ages and addresses. I can send it to you as a download if you want, but it is 8 Gb Excel file. ...

This question is the same as "Evolution???!!! Have you the names and addresses of all those people who were monkeys when they were born?"

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I think God loves us all!!!

Why are you calling God a liar?

God Hates
Hypocrites (Matthew 24:51), The Unforgiving (Mark 11:26), Homosexuals (Romans 1:26, 27), Fornicators (Romans 1:29), The Wicked (Romans 1:29), The Covetous (Romans 1:29), The Malicious (Romans 1:29), The Envious (Romans 1:29), Murderers (Romans 1:29), The Deceitful (Romans 1:29), Backbiters (Romans 1:30), Haters of God (Romans 1:30), The Despiteful (Romans 1:30), The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30), Inventors of evil (Romans 1:30), Disobedient to parents (Romans 1:30), Covenant breakers (Romans 1:31), The Unmerciful (Romans 1:31), The Implacable (Romans 1:31), The Unrighteous (1Corinthians 6:9), Idolaters (1Corinthians 6:9), Adulterers (1Corinthians 6:9), The Effeminate (1Corinthians 6:9), Thieves (1Corinthians 6:10), Drunkards (1Corinthians 6:10), Reviler (1Corinthians 6:10), Extortioners (1Corinthians 6:10), The Fearful (Revelation 21:8 ), The Unbelieving (Revelation 21:8 ), The Abominable (Revelation 21:8 ), Whoremongers (Revelation 21:8 ), Sorcerers (Revelation 21:8 ), All Liars (Revelation 21:8 )

"And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you:
for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them."
Leviticus 20:23

"And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images,
and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols,
and my soul shall abhor you."
Leviticus 26:30

"And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them,
because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters."
Deuteronomy 32:19

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:
thou hatest all workers of iniquity."
Psalm 5:5

"Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing:
the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
Psalm 5:6

"For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous,
whom the LORD abhorreth."
Psalm 10:3

"The LORD trieth the righteous:
but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."
Psalm 11:5


Want more?

"There were they in great fear, where no fear was:
for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee:
thou hast put them to shame,
because God hath despised them."
Psalm 53:5

"When God heard this, he was wroth,
and greatly abhorred Israel:"
Psalm 78:59

"Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people,
insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance."
Psalm 106:40


 I could continue...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #295 on: October 09, 2013, 06:58:35 AM »

There is more than feelings behind my beliefs nogods and I'm the one accused of not listening.   :?  I think God likes kindness over greed better.  I think God loves us all!!!

Hello JB
I think the highlighted points above are the reasons why you feel you are having such a hard time.
I'm sure every one on here would welcome being shown something new that points towards a god.
I think god does not exist but even if  he/she did then they are playing a very sick game with their creations.

  PEACE PLEASE :D.
I think a world without god(s) would make the above far more likely but that is just what I think and so I could well be wrong.

Maybe believers will always come off worse in discussions due to the lack of any physical evidence for a god(s).That point is always going to be hard to get past.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 07:04:30 AM by Jonny-UK »
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #296 on: October 09, 2013, 07:31:46 AM »
Two quick comments...

Most of us don't contend that god is impossible, Junebug. We contend that it is highly unlikely, AND that there is no actual evidence that one exists.

Also, Buddhism is a "spiritual" practice, but it does not require a god belief. Many Buddhists are atheists, including a friend of mine who is studying to become a Buddhist chaplain.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #297 on: October 09, 2013, 07:52:56 AM »
Yes I gave smites.  Oh well I tried.  I'm confused.  Is this a website of open discussion or change your mind site or leave?
Was this directed to me? If so, what are you talking about? If not,please clarify so the person you are addressing knows that you are speaking to them.
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Jag one more thing, you sound like a militant atheist, believer disrespector, so disappointing.   

And if you understood my posts you would realize that I'm not talking to you about religion, and I'm barely talking to you about god. I'm also clearly not getting through to you and every effort I've made to do so results in you getting mad at me and accusing me of being mean to you. You are welcome to see me as a "militant atheist" (I'm not, not even close, but you routinely assign your own meanings to words so this is par for the course with you)  and a "believer disrespector" (you're taking personally things that are not - I do not respect your beliefs but that has nothing to do with respecting you as a human being). I think you are mixing several issues together - your illness, the support you are getting from others here, and more notably, the support you believe you are NOT getting here, and from whom, and stirring it all up in a bubbling brew of resentment.

I don't think you know me well enough to be disappointed by ME, although I grant that you might be disappointed that I'm not quite who YOU wanted me to be. You only know me from one site, about a narrow topic I'm interested in, on the internet, by reading my words. Since you misunderstand a significant portion of what I say, you know even less about who I am than you believe you do.

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I have been called harmless so why do I bother y'all so much.  I just don't get it.  I don't do any of the things you claim to despise about religion.
I've tried repeatedly to explain this and since we're covering the same ground again, I've obviously failed to do so. I don't accept any responsibility for the problems anymore - I've done my part and far more to try to help you here. Come to think of it, in return for my efforts, you gave me the only negative karma point I've ever gotten here - and we all know how strongly you feel about karma points.

You don't get to determine how people are going to interact with you on this site. I've already stated that I think it is not healthy for you to participate in threads like this while you are fighting cancer, and in the same post, also stated that you are a big girl and capable of making such decisions for yourself - so act like it. If you are facing your mortality and still insist on participating in discussions about the existence of a god you should expect your feelings to be hurt. Take responsibility for your feelings - they belong to you and you alone.

But they are not the same as facts, and they are not interchangeable.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 07:56:49 AM by Jag »
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #298 on: October 09, 2013, 08:11:48 AM »

I was thinking about the development within Christianity of heaven as a place where the spirit goes when someone dies. The idea was borrowed from other religions in the area. There is some hint at this type of heaven by the time of Revelation.

In Jesus time and the earliest Christians time, heaven was a bodily resurrection at the end of the world, not immediately after death. The earliest Christians were not expecting to be dead for long.

Ah, I get what you mean, though I don't really quite agree, Paul, in his letters, indicates the after death people will have spirit bodies not physical ones so the concept of a a place where spirits go after death.

Really, though, it is fair to say that each generation of Christians seems to have some who are expecting the world to end in their own lifetime or at least to be lifted bodily into heaven or something. What has happened in the mainstream of thought is that the concept of Christ returning very soon has been taken on board but gradually generations have seen that the time-scale is wrong. I see it that people have come to see that it might be that they will live to see Jesus return - at least that is what preachers have preached to keep them on their toes!

Wheels. This is what Paul says, corinthians 15:42 "so it will be with the resurrection of the dead" "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

The idea that people have a spirit which goes to heaven immediately at death, was only borrowed later, from other religions as Christianity spread out. For example the ancient Greeks had a belief that an individual spirit continued to exist after death.

They obviously borrowed this type of belief because the resurrection was taking longer than expected and they did not like the idea of being dead for a long time.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #299 on: October 09, 2013, 08:13:00 AM »
JB,

I am sorry there are so many viscious people here.   I agree with many of their points of views but their delivery can be brutal most of the time.  I don't understand why Nam (in particular) are so obnoxious in their dislike of believers.  Perhaps I would  be more of a jerk if I was more solid in my belief as well.  But at this point I see no reason to not observe social graces.

I personally do not believe it is a crime to believe in a god.  I think it is a natural process that people seek answers in imagination and therefore create gods. 

I was raised to believe you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. 







don's my flame retardent suit.

Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #300 on: October 09, 2013, 08:36:04 AM »
I realize that you are talking directly to jb, epidemic, but I'm commenting anyway - I'm charming that way.

JB,

I am sorry there are so many viscious people here. 
Can we get a head count of vicious people here please? And a working definition of vicious as well?
Quote
I agree with many of their points of views but their delivery can be brutal most of the time.
Repetition tends toward abruptness.

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I don't understand why Nam (in particular) are so obnoxious in their dislike of believers.
You misunderstand what is going on - I wouldn't normally speak on Nam's behalf (we ALL know he's more than capable of speaking for himself) but I'm pretty sure I've also been cast in the "obnoxious in their dislike of believers" category by jb, so I'm speaking for myself as well: I don't dislike anyone because of their god beliefs I form my opinion based on their actions. I don't give a hoot what jb believes about god(s) anymore - I stopped caring when it became clear that she is not fully aware yet herself. I would certainly like to see her develop some critical thinking skills regardless of what that does to her beliefs, because I think it's a skill that would serve her particularly well at this point in her life.

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  Perhaps I would  be more of a jerk if I was more solid in my belief as well.  But at this point I see no reason to not observe social graces.
Radical thought here - it's entirely possible that you are well-mannered by most standards under most circumstances. You apply social grace skills to more situations than, say, me for instance. I tend to be more outspoken and forthright, and some people take offense at that. I might be rude, but that doesn't equate to wrong.

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I personally do not believe it is a crime to believe in a god.  I think it is a natural process that people seek answers in imagination and therefore create gods.

Agreed. And if it's a natural human tendency, most people will need help figuring that out. I had nothing to do with the creating this site, but I assume that's what it exists to do.
Quote
I was raised to believe you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. 
And once you've caught the flies, what do you plan to do with them?

I don't think of jb as an insect, I see her as a capable person who has some hurdles to overcome, just like everyone else. She's hanging out at an openly atheist website, and in her very own words, is trying to show us a different way of perceiving god - she is subject to the same expectations as anyone else here.




Quote
don's my flame retardent suit.
Calm down, that didn't hurt a bit, did it?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #301 on: October 09, 2013, 08:41:16 AM »
Words are tricky!!!  Since you are so familiar with the word religious you should know it doesn't apply to me.  Maybe you should read the definition more carefully. 

Sweet junebug.  I am familiar with the word and I have quibbles with your definition.  But even if we use your definition, it applies to you.  Observe.

Religion is when somebody says they believe in god

Check. 

and starts making rules and traditions for society they have no clue about.

"god is love",  "unconditional love", "greed causes all suffering", etc.
Check.

I admit often to having no absolute knowledge. 

You only do that as a quid pro quo tactic to try to neutralize any knowledge your perceived opponent may have.  You are not genuinely humble or modest in that regard.     

So by your own definition, you are religious. 

I understand you don't like using that word because of the association you make with organized religious institutions.  I'm sorry for that.  They are not religion.  They are organized institutions.  You are religious, but I understand you are not them. 


Love guides me.

meh.  Probably not.  Fear guides most people most of the time.  I do not imagine you are special in that regard.

People with opposing opinions can be friends. They can care about each other.  At least I can.

I don't think you can.  You don't seem to realize it, but you take any disagreement or criticism extremely personally.

Y'all don't show the same respect.

In what way have "us all" not shown respect in the way you have?

Y'all are the ones claiming absolute knowledge. 

Oh really?  Who?  Where?

I don't even know how you get off saying I don't listen. 

By "listen" I don't mean "respond with an argument".  You do that reflexively.  All the time.  To everything.  I mean "seriously consider".  You don't do that.  Our ongoing debate about what it means to be "religious" is one example. 



edit: I --> In; me --> mean
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 10:43:52 AM by screwtape »
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #302 on: October 09, 2013, 11:19:15 AM »
Junebug, something you have to understand is that you do fit some definitions of the word 'religious'.  You do believe and are devoted to an acknowledged deity, which is the primary definition of religious.

But at the same time, you don't fit other definitions of the word.  For example, you don't follow religious beliefs or observances (of an organized religion).

So you are religious, but you are not religious.  You hold a religious belief, but you aren't part of an organized religion.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #303 on: October 09, 2013, 11:32:11 AM »
Jag,

You want me to smite her for you? I will. How dare she smite you!

epidemic,

What? Where do you get that I dislike ALL believers? I don't. I dislike junebug because she's a whiney bitch who blames us for her ills[1], and that we're all being mean to her--it's not just me, she's saying Jag is being mean to her--JAG--come on! This girl's an emotional crackpot.

-Nam
 1. not speaking about her fictional cancer
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #304 on: October 09, 2013, 11:57:10 AM »
Jag,

You want me to smite her for you? I will. How dare she smite you!

It was quite a while ago, and it doesn't bother me to have a negative karma point attached to my profile - anyone who is interested enough can look it up and see what I said for themselves (FTR, I laughed out loud at nogod's remark that led to her only neg karma ever - go figure). That said, I do appreciate the offer to defend my reputation, especially coming from you! If we had a "big kiss" icon I'd use it here  ;), but we don't, so a wink will have to suffice.

I think junebug really does believe that she is giving us new information, a "new" way to perceive the concept of a god. The problem ( as screwtape very clearly points out) is that she is highly selective in her interpretations. I've already demonstrated that I understand her veiwpoint (repeatedly for that matter, AS I USED TO SHARE IT AND HAVE STATED SO MORE THAN ONCE) but she seems to be angry that I've moved PAST that place and arrived at a different conclusion - that I (among the many others here, of course) reject her view as "not well thought out and completely unsupported by empirical evidence".  I can't do anything about how she interprets my words, or the sentiment behind them, and if she chooses to be angry and think I'm mean, it has no real impact on my life. She's not the first person to dislike my manner of expressing myself and I'm quite confident that she won't be the last either.

Maybe I should add this quote to my signature: “I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #305 on: October 09, 2013, 12:02:45 PM »
To paraphrase Woody Allen, JB thinks she is a chicken, and we need the eggs.... :)

She smites you, and Jag. You two are sweethearts compared to others of us here. See, one of my problems here with her is, say, if she has Cancer, and I know she says she does, and maybe she does: why is she on this website? She's not going to find comfort here. Yes, everyone has been kind to her on her Cancer topic (I assume), but coming to discussions like this, or other topics like this: there's no comfort.

It's like she's wanting to be flogged.

If I had Cancer, I wouldn't go to a Christian website because I wouldn't be comforted there.

That's one of the many reasons why I don't believe a word she says.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #306 on: October 09, 2013, 12:23:44 PM »
why is she on this website? She's not going to find comfort here. <snip>... there's no comfort.

This is just a guess, and uses psychology to make the point, but here it goes...coming here to argue with us about something she is convinced is true, gives her a tangible fight to have with something. This website is filling in for the fight she wants to have with cancer, but since cancer can't fight in a way that she can argue with it, she has this fight instead.

I don't think it's healthy, but I already don't believe in a god so my investment in the outcome of the argument is pretty much nil. Not so much for junebug - if she's right about her beliefs, then cancer is a little less scary. Heck, if she can continue to just hold her ground on the face of our combined efforts to show her the flaw in her thinking process (which she is misinterpreting as an effort to deconvert her), then her having cancer is not a pointless accident - it has some sort of purpose. I think she's holding on for "Purpose" more than for "God" - just an idle thought on my part.

The biggest problem I see with that explanation is it does not address why she came here in the first place, well in advance of her diagnosis. I could be completely wrong about my speculations, but it makes a certain kind of emotional sense and junebug is a very emotional thinker.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #307 on: October 09, 2013, 12:25:55 PM »
Either that or she's into S&M.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #308 on: October 09, 2013, 12:32:08 PM »
Japanese are spiritual people.  Isn't that where Buddhism originated. 

Quote
Japanese are spiritual people.  Isn't that where Buddhism originated.

HAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahaha.....

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #309 on: October 09, 2013, 12:34:21 PM »
Japanese are spiritual people.  Isn't that where Buddhism originated. 

The Buddha was Indian.  Siddartha Gautama.  I told you this in another post.  Buddhism migrated from India through China (the fat, laughing buddhas are all chinese) to Japan.  The Japanese practice Zen Buddhism, which is more of a philosophy plus an accompanying skillset than a religion.  It is not particularly theistic. 

They also practice ShintoWiki, which is a recipe for cabbage[1] and not really theistic either.  But you are correct in that they are spiritual, but not in the sense of believing in a god or gods.  Rather they are spiritual in the literal sense - they believe in spirits.  Which does not support your point in the least.

However:
Quote
Fact books and statistics typically list some 80 to 90% of Japanese people as Shintoist. However, polls suggest that most Japanese consider themselves non-religious...
...Shinto is sometimes seen more as a way of life rather than a religion by the Japanese due to its long historical and cultural significance...
from the wiki link on Shinto.


Have you talked to every person to find this out?

Unnecessary to talk to each and every person to establish these facts.  You can look at population demographics and economics.  Trends.  Generalizations. 

I think they are spiritual people but not religious in those countries. 

Without supporting facts - data - what you think is just a reflection of your emotions.  And spiritual is too wooly a word to use.  It is imprecise and encompasses many ideas.


There is more than feelings behind my beliefs

?  Really?  What else is lurking back there?  Tumbleweeds?  Dust bunnies?  An old, half-licked Tootsie pop?

(^ adding levity. Don't take that as me being a meanie)
 1. No, it is not!
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #310 on: October 09, 2013, 12:58:22 PM »
No, no screwtape...you're a big meanie.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline jdawg70

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #311 on: October 09, 2013, 01:19:54 PM »
It's like she's wanting to be flogged.
I still contend that she has a persecution complex.  She likes feeling holier-than-thou; she likes to feel righteous against someone.  It's the only way I can explain how she takes such offense to practically everything posted to her.  She feels insult because she wants to feel insulted.  Her unwaivering arrogance and her Dolores Umbridge-esque platitudes of love and kindness indicate to me that she desperately wants to be the misunderstood savior amongst the venomous mob.  She needs to feel like she is displaying righteous conviction in the face of persecution.  When the persecution isn't there, she makes it up, pulling out keywords and intentionally misunderstanding context.

To merely engage her is to insult her, because she wants to feel that way.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #312 on: October 09, 2013, 01:28:36 PM »
Perhaps Junebug isn't as happy with god as she seems.
I can't help thinking that even a strong believer faced with cancer must be mad with their god on some level for letting it happen("why me" must come to mind at some point).
Perhaps she is using this forum to vent some of that anger or is maybe, indirectly, looking for reassurance that it is ok to get mad at her god?
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Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #313 on: October 09, 2013, 01:35:07 PM »
It's like she's wanting to be flogged.
I still contend that she has a persecution complex.  She likes feeling holier-than-thou; she likes to feel righteous against someone.  It's the only way I can explain how she takes such offense to practically everything posted to her.  She feels insult because she wants to feel insulted.  Her unwaivering arrogance and her Dolores Umbridge-esque platitudes of love and kindness indicate to me that she desperately wants to be the misunderstood savior amongst the venomous mob.  She needs to feel like she is displaying righteous conviction in the face of persecution.  When the persecution isn't there, she makes it up, pulling out keywords and intentionally misunderstanding context.

To merely engage her is to insult her, because she wants to feel that way.
Agreed, to a point. I don't think the misunderstanding of words and context is intentional. I think that part is real - we're all speaking English, but we're not using the terms the same way. Pages of discussion on evolution, only to discover that jb is talking about "social" evolution (as in cultural changes) while the rest of us are talking about ACTUAL EVOLUTION, for instance. To me, it's not her sincerity that's in question.
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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #314 on: October 09, 2013, 01:35:35 PM »
I still contend that she has a persecution complex. 

I don't think that's it.  I think she is very sensitive and defensive by nature.  She takes everything to heart.

Communicating by writing is very difficult in the best of times.  It takes a LOT of effort and time to convey what you really mean.  So much is lost without body lanuage, tonal vocal inflections and facial expressions.  It is extremely easy to misunderstand other people.  Add to all that the fact this place has sharp edges and pointy corners.  And we talk about subjects that are emotional hot buttons for a lot of people.  And most people, especially xians, are not used to having their beliefs challenged in such blunt terms. 

All this makes it very difficult for someone who is sensitive and so... touchy-feely.  It cannot be easy for her.  I'm pleasantly surprised she has lasted as long as she has.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #315 on: October 09, 2013, 01:36:11 PM »
Whatever the reasoning: we're all the bad guys, and that isn't productive of this website. This website isn't here to make the religious people feel good or be validated in the idealism that all us atheists are horrible people, and they are good people.

That's the attitude I get from her. Even I, I believe, started out my conversations with her in a polite[1] manner, and then when I said something she didn't like I became the bad guy.

Hell, she made nogodsforme and Jag into "bad guys". We're all bad guys. This website isn't here for her amusement; and that's how she has always treated it.

In my opinion.

-Nam
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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #316 on: October 09, 2013, 02:21:14 PM »
JB, actually it is possible to show that people are "more loving, caring, giving and kind w/o God". We have done this many times on this site. The parts of the US and the countries in the world that have the fewest god-believers, ie. the highest percentages of voluntarily atheist people are by far the nicest places to live.[1]

Very atheistic countries like Iceland, Japan and Denmark, for example, have low crime rates, few homeless people, almost no gun violence, good educations and health care for all. Women can walk the streets without constant fear. People voluntarily pay high taxes to support their social services. The US as a whole has more people who believe in god, and much worse social indicators than any other industrialized country. God-believers have a hard time explaining facts like this, so they tend to ignore them.

Atheist industrialized countries have the best health care, the lowest crime rates, the fewest people in prison, the least child abuse and less family violence. Fewer divorces and family breakups, lower poverty rates, higher per capita donations to non-religious charities. Higher voter participation, more democracy, cleaner elections. Higher levels of education, higher incomes and lower unemployment. Better environmental policies. Better attitudes about women, gay people and ethnic minorities (at least in many cases). Fewer unwanted pregnancies, lower rates of STDs.

The more people "let go and let god," the worse off their overall life circumstances become. It could be that societies improve when people solve problems by rational thinking instead of prayer, and have social policies (like health care and sex education) based on real science instead of on "feelings". Or maybe god just likes atheists better.... &)
 1. I say voluntarily atheist, not places where there is a dictatorship that forces people into an ideology like China or North Korea.

Japanese are spiritual people.  Isn't that where Buddhism originated.  Have you talked to every person to find this out?  I think they are spiritual people but not religious in those countries.  If not it is to me not freedom from God but freedom from religion that makes these countries appealing.  Religion does get in the way of progress and that is exactly what our forefathers fought to obtain.  Freedom from the tyranny of religion, oh and taxes. 

There is more than feelings behind my beliefs nogods and I'm the one accused of not listening.   :?  I think God likes kindness over greed better.  I think God loves us all!!!
Japanese people are largely atheists. They are not taught any kind of god belief in their families. I have attended Japanese weddings. There is no mention of any religion or god of any kind. My Japanese students are completely baffled by discussions of god or supernatural forces. They are atheists who do not understand why they have to be careful walking about after dark in the US, why people are sleeping on the sidewalks in the US, why there are security guards everywhere in the US, why there is no national health care in the US, why so many people have guns in the US.  And why most people in the US believe in god....

You say that you would prefer to live in a place where people treat each other well and care for each other. That would be in an atheist country like Japan, Iceland or Denmark. People are clearly better off if they stop relying on non-existent supernatural beings and focus on what has been proven to work.

These are facts, JB: Places with fewer god-believers have better social programs, paid for by taxes. That means that atheists are less greedy, and are willing to give up more of their salaries to make sure their neighbors are cared for.  Lower crime, higher education, better health care. Like I said, god-believers cannot account for the fact that places with higher percentages of atheists, even in the US, are nicer places to live. Either god likes atheists better or belief in god makes things worse than using rational thought. You did not address this fact at all.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #317 on: October 09, 2013, 02:32:06 PM »
Damn. JB took my negative darwin virginity for referencing a Woody Allen joke? Talk about over the top.

I think the quote fits the situation here quite well. We keep interacting with JB because we like the intellectual tussling--"the eggs". Even if we don't really understand her viewpoint, and even if we think she's a bit out there--"thinks she is a chicken".  That's probably the same reason she keeps coming here--we think we are chickens, and she likes the eggs.

Once you have to explain a joke, it's not funny anymore. And I don't even like Woody Allen as a person. But whatever.

It's from Annie Hall:

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #318 on: October 09, 2013, 02:36:28 PM »
You don't like Woody Allen? You're just begging for another negative Darwin...
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