Author Topic: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...  (Read 18527 times)

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Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2013, 08:06:20 AM »
I think a person needs to have faith in something so why not a Higher Power that never lets you down.  In fact it is when mankind let's me down that the Higher Power I believe in is always there to comfort me.

The phrase for this is "imaginary friend."
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #175 on: October 01, 2013, 08:13:07 AM »
Is this the theory?
I have this other theory where I believe if we stopped hurting each other and I mean the whole at least 90% of humanity we will be blessed with better health and  almost no suffering.  I will never know if this theory is true or false

It's false. At least, mostly false.

Health might improve marginally.  But suffering will always be.  To go Buddhist on you, life is suffering.  It is inescapable.  The best we can hope for is to adjust our needs and accept what comes our way. 

Prince Siddhartha Gautama, who became the first Buddha, grew up in a palace.  His father wanted him to never know any suffering, so he was constantly surrounded by young beautiful people who fulfilled his every desire.  He kept the sick and old hidden from the Prince.  After he'd married and had a child, he took a trip to another city.  On that trip he saw for the first time in his life people who were old, sick, dead, grieving, hungry.  He asked his charioteer what was wrong with them and the attendant explained. 

The Prince asked why it happened.  He was told those things happen to everyone.  Even me? the Prince asked.  Yes.  Even you. 

He returned to the palace, and that night, after everyone was asleep, he took off his gold jewelry and his fine clothes.  He kissed his sleeping wife and child.  And he left the palace forever to search for an answer to suffering.

Suffering is the human condition. But you are right in that treating each other well is about the best we can do.


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Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #176 on: October 01, 2013, 09:18:18 AM »
If we stop hurting each other, and instead, spend our time fully supporting each other in getting through life's natural suffering, then MENTAL suffering will be much alleviated. Going through cancer sucked. But I had the support of friends and an excellent cancer center. So I cried a lot, and worried a lot about money, BUT I felt safe with my friends and medical staff. My suffering was MUCH alleviated by their caring.

So, can we eliminate suffering? Not unless we can eliminate disaster and disease and so on. But we can certainly make it much more bearable if we're kind to each other.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2013, 09:58:08 AM »
I have this other theory where I believe if we stopped hurting each other and I mean the whole at least 90% of humanity we will be blessed with better health and  almost no suffering.  I will never know if this theory is true or false because I am not hopeful that humanity is up for the challenge.  I think we owe it to ourselves but I have to get 7 billion people to agree; a very daunting task indeed but I will continue to try so that I might live to see the day when disease no longer exists.  There is a song by Nickelback that is very similar "If Everyone Cared".  It was the first time I didn't feel so alone in my beliefs.  Not a big Back fan but I love that song. 

As far as the concept of y'all's term I get it and can not possibly explain any better why I do not concede than I did in my last post.  We will just have to agree to disagree on that subject.

you can use two apostrophes w/o getting red squigglies   :laugh:

I don't know what your experience has been with people but I would say that mine indicates that easily 96% of people are good people.  they are kind, caring, loving.  Now perhaps that is a bit high because I guess we all do something mean on occasion. 

So perhaps I can rephrase 90% of the time people are kind and caring with 2% being total shits(24/7), 1% are selectively nice and for the rest of us perhaps 1% of the time we occasionally slip up.  The percentages need work but I think you see what I am driving at.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #178 on: October 01, 2013, 10:29:34 AM »

...Don't think I haven't noticed nobody here had a comment on my theory.  That is so discouraging but is the perfect example of why I do not have any faith at all in my fellow man; at least 50% of mankind anyway.  There are good people out there, they are just not in politics where we really need them.  Everybody wants things to get better but seems like so many are not willing to do what that takes.  My theory does not even mention a god.  A god is not necessary for this idea to work just limits on greed, kindness, compassion and empathy for one another.  How exasperating! :-[

This is your idea that if people all stopped fighting and got on there wouldn't be any more cancer, earthquakes etc.?
If that's what it is then there is little to say. Earthquakes were going on before humans arrived and they will probably still be happening after we are all extinct. People getting on with each other isn't going to change that! Cancer - we might feel better about ourselves if we were all friendly but how does that prevent cancer? There are many causes of cancer but a violent world s not one of them.

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I'm thinking right now if y'all are right and there is no god that maybe the reason a person like me believes in it anyway is because I don't have faith in my fellow man.  I think a person needs to have faith in something so why not a Higher Power that never lets you down.  In fact it is when mankind let's me down that the Higher Power I believe in is always there to comfort me.

Perhaps you are right here, June, except that there is no real evidence of 'higher powers' intervening to help anyone at all so the best such ideas can do is to make one feel better about oneself. Only fellow humans can actually do physical things to help.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Traveler

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #179 on: October 01, 2013, 12:02:42 PM »
The other aspect of a more peaceful and kinder world is that stress would presumably be lower. Stress is implicated in many diseases, at least in terms of worsening symptoms, or perhaps interfering with our immune systems. Perhaps, also, lower stress would lead to fewer accidents, arguments, shootouts, etc.

So, would it help if people were nicer? Yes. Would it make this world a place with no suffering? No. But suffering would definitely be lessened. Of that I am certain.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #180 on: October 01, 2013, 12:06:44 PM »
I'm reminded of the lyrics of one of my favorite songs, "What God Said," by the now-defunct "The Uninvited."  The gist of the song is that what god says is "nothing special--nothing that we shouldn't already know"

Last verse is this, god talking:

But if you're looking for advice
You don't need to ask me twice
Start with the basics: just be nice
And see if that makes things alright

So, I must say, junebug, your hypothesis isn't without merit.  I find The Uninvited to be very wise, and the fact that you sort of agree with them (they eschew gods completely) does raise my opinion of you.  :-)  Not that you should care about that...
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Offline jgl53

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #181 on: October 01, 2013, 01:06:11 PM »
I hear this statement from Christians all the time. In fact, I hear it quite often from my dad (who is still a fundamentalist Christian) and sometimes from old friends on Facebook.

Quote
"Without God, life has no meaning, no purpose, no destiny. Without God our lives are worthless. We are just cosmic dust floating around with no more value than a rock or a piece of dung!"

Now, whenever Christians claim this I can't help but wonder what exactly they are trying to argue (although I do have some hunches). But before I drop in my two cents I wanted to get your thoughts. Is a deity/God thing required for life to have meaning or purpose? Feel free to elaborate on this topic as much as you like - as I'm sure many of you have heard this diatribe as well.

My take on this statement is that the statement itself is so meaningless and absurd that it deserves no reply other than "Well, that is totally stupid." - then get away from the robot who said this and get on with your life.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #182 on: October 01, 2013, 09:19:14 PM »
As far as the universe is concerned, humans, the plants and animals, all life on earth is no more important than a rock or piece of dung. Floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, meteor strikes, blizzards, droughts,  extreme temperatures all happen, usually without any assistance from humans.[1]  The universe could take out the earth with an asteroid or burn us up in a supernova tomorrow. It happens somewhere in the universe all the time.

I am not sure how thinking there is a superbeing out there somewhere would make any difference. We are still on our own. If we don't take care of each other, who will? We can't stop disasters or diseases, but we can use science and sensible policies (like universal health insurance) to care for each other better when they do happen.

That way, people like Traveler would not have to be worried about medical bills on top of being sick. People in Canada and Europe and Japan don't have to choose between losing their homes and paying for cancer treatment. Only happens in the US where we spend more for health care than any other country ... &)
 1. But with fracking, deforesting, overfishing, burning fossil fuels, etc, we may be making our own "natural disasters" for the first time...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #183 on: October 02, 2013, 03:19:58 AM »
The other aspect of a more peaceful and kinder world is that stress would presumably be lower. Stress is implicated in many diseases, at least in terms of worsening symptoms, or perhaps interfering with our immune systems. Perhaps, also, lower stress would lead to fewer accidents, arguments, shootouts, etc.

So, would it help if people were nicer? Yes. Would it make this world a place with no suffering? No. But suffering would definitely be lessened. Of that I am certain.

Absolutely.  That's why I follow the Golden Rule, as a Humanist.  No supernatural thinking or mystical entities are required.  Just treat people the way you would want to be treated.  "Be excellent to each other", as it has more popularly been expressed.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #184 on: October 02, 2013, 06:26:37 AM »
Argument from ignorance from my understanding is an argument based on ignorance.  Y'all's claim is that to think there was any intelligence involved in our creation is ignorant and I say it is not.   Y'all will never admit this.  Y'all are very passionate about y'all's "opinion".  It will take an unbiased opinion to change my "opinion".  Are y'all, screwtape, really trying to claim "absolute" knowledge?  Really? 

As far as my hypothesis helping with cancer; pollution dumps carcinogens on us everyday.  W/o uncontrolled greed we could all agree to use a less dangerous energy source to power our lives.  Our foods will not be contaminated with steroids and antibiotics nor will they live in filthy inhumane conditions.  All people will be able to get the health care they need.  No one will live in poverty.  The only tears will be when our loved ones enter the spirit world due to old age.  It may not eliminate all suffering but it would eliminate 75-90% of it!!! 

When someone has a devastating disease like MS or cancer or Lou Gehrig's there would be all kinds of social support.  It would not be a financial burden as well.  I don't even trust that some of these diseases aren't already curable and that they're not because they are very profitable.

It's a simple idea but a very, very difficult change to make for humanity. :'( :'( :'( 

The me,me,me's of the world needs to become we,we,we's of the world.  It even sounds like fun. ;)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #185 on: October 02, 2013, 07:06:16 AM »
Argument from ignorance from my understanding is an argument based on ignorance.  Y'all's claim is that to think there was any intelligence involved in our creation is ignorant and I say it is not.   Y'all will never admit this.  Y'all are very passionate about y'all's "opinion".  It will take an unbiased opinion to change my "opinion".  Are y'all, screwtape, really trying to claim "absolute" knowledge?  Really? 


So, you just demonstrated you have no idea what an argument from ignorance is. Furthermore, you demonstrate a lack of capacity to learn, correct mistakes, or even looks things up, which meets the vernacular use of the word ignorant.

Argument from ignorance in its basic form is to use "could be" as a good reason for "is"

To demonstrate:

It "could be" that Satan wrote the Bible and is actually posing as Yahweh. He is really Hades, building a death cult to distract us from the loving light of Osiris. Therefore, you need to reject the Bible and worship Osiris.





An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Boots

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #186 on: October 02, 2013, 07:52:08 AM »
As far as my hypothesis helping ...<snip>... The me,me,me's of the world needs to become we,we,we's of the world.  It even sounds like fun. ;)

You get +1 for having a similar vision to Gene Roddenberry.  But you really do need to read up on logical fallacies and the Argument from Ignorance.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #187 on: October 02, 2013, 08:00:50 AM »
Ok,  this thread has gone around the world and back.

So in short What is the meaning of life with a God?

How is life meaningless with out God?  ( or rather how does this lack of meaning impact your life)


I think life in the grand galactic scale life is meaningless.  In 1 trillion years odds are that the universe will be a low energy, dark disperse suspension of time space and matter approaching absolute zero.  But I will still raise my kids, visit amusement parks, play Minecraft, and go to work.  Whether my toils and existence are remembered for eternity or not.

I have right now and nothing more.  I have 80 years to be remembered for the next generation or two.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #188 on: October 02, 2013, 08:26:11 AM »
Well spoken, Epidemic! We do need to get back to the point of the thread.

Given the fact that religious people all seem to have a different understanding of their chosen deity, I rather think that the 'meaning of life' is really something that is cooked up be people and not anything dreamed up by a deity - otherwise everyone would be worshipping the same god and see the same meaning in life. So, in fact, for the religious person, life is just as without meaning as for an atheist but the religious person wants to credit their chosen deity with inventing the meaning whilst the rest of us realise we have to add our own meaning to our lives - short as they are.

That seems to me, sums up most the content of the thread.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #189 on: October 02, 2013, 09:29:25 AM »
The mindless arrogance needed to insist that humans are the point of the entirety of the universe never fails to amaze me. The whole universe exists, but I'm important enough to feel that I must be somehow part of the point..... of the existence of the entire universe.

It's all about me, in other words.

Far too many people stop one thought too soon. The fine-tuning argument is ridiculous in the face of the entirety of the universe. The meaning of life is a concept (much like time is a concept), an idea that was thought up by people figuring out how to co-exist with other animals and the forces of nature, trying to figure out why the world seemed to be attempting to kill people off at every turn - it was a survival mechanism that morphed into a philosophy and a religion.

Even if there was an "answer", it would still be subject to the same process of interpretation as anything else that humans form opinions about - differences, minute or meaningful, would still exist on the minds of every individual person. Religion itself is the example I offer to support my statement.

No matter what anyone wants to believe, we NEVER know exactly what anyone else thinks. All information is run though the filters of our biases, previous experiences, and expectations, and influences the result. No "answer" is even possible.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #190 on: October 02, 2013, 09:33:13 AM »
this is my last post for junebug.  sorry for the digression.

Argument from ignorance from my understanding is an argument based on ignorance.  Y'all's claim is that to think there was any intelligence involved in our creation is ignorant and I say it is not.   Y'all will never admit this.  Y'all are very passionate about y'all's "opinion".  It will take an unbiased opinion to change my "opinion".  Are y'all, screwtape, really trying to claim "absolute" knowledge?  Really? 

Sorry junebug, that's not it.  By saying you are making an argument from ignorance, we are not simply saying you are stupid.  It is you saying you cannot think of a better explanation than the supernatural.  You are using your own admitted ignorance as your argument.  Observe:

I see no coincidences here at all these are things that could only be accomplished by a brilliant, compassionate and loving Creator/ the force that holds it all together. IMO

and:
The complexity of life is what shuts my brain down to the idea of evolution as the explanation.

There are several problems with these, but they do also contain arguments from ignorance.  In these posts you are saying, "I don't understand how else this could have happened."  That is admitting ignorance and using that as the basis for your beliefs.  And please don't take that as me calling you stupid.  I am definitely not doing that.  Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge or understanding.  And as I have said before, I am mostly ignorant.

To change these to arguments that are not from ignorance, you need to have data to show that "all these things here" could only have happened the way you say.  Or that the complexity you perceive really is beyond what evolution explains.  You would need to show how an intelligent designer did these things and have a testable idea that makes predictions.  ID makes no predictions.

As far as my hypothesis helping with cancer; pollution dumps carcinogens on us everyday.

Maybe.  But it is probably less than the semi-natural carcinogens we ingest from crappy food on a daily basis.  Which do you come in contact with more: dioxin or deep fried food?  hexavalent chromium or well done meat?  So even if we were to return to a hunter-gatherer culture, there would still be ample opportunity for cancer.  And that would also remove pretty much all of the rest of modern medicine, thus increasing sickness.  Either way you go, you have pros and cons. 

Suffering, sickness, and death are constants.


W/o uncontrolled greed we could all agree to use a less dangerous energy source to power our lives.

back to greed, huh?  Eughh.  Sometimes it's not uncontrolled greed.  Sometimes it just thoughtless convenience.  Or even semi-necessity.  Consider pesticides. They may do damage, but a lot of farmers see no other way because without them, they may have a very difficult time making a living.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #191 on: October 02, 2013, 10:07:14 AM »
   This whole "meaning of life" thing is a big red herring, IMHO.  It's something preachers and their ilk have drummed into the heads of the faithful for years, and it all centers on meaning in this life being tied to the next life.  It's nonsense and it has spilled over into everyone's vocabulary to the point life has to have this big overarching "meaning" or it's pointless (as in the OP).
   Life is what it is on a daily basis and whatever "meaning" there is comes from what you make of it and how you impact the world and others today (can't you hear Lennon's "Imagine" playing in the background?). 
   I have an employee whose son is in college - a very nice, expensive college, where he lives in a very nice off-campus apartment and drives a $50k truck (all thanks to a wealthy absent father).  My employee tells me her son keeps talking about suicide now because he (at 20) has just starting thinking about life and how there is no purpose or meaning other than we live and we die. 
   I'm not really sure what he thought his "special purpose" was for all those previous years, aside from his parents telling him how wonderful he was and what a great athlete he was - that all came crashing down when no college offered scholarships for sports and now he's just another smart kid among many at school.  He did get some magical thinking in church, of course - he has been that route and has recently started rejecting that too.
  Life is what you make it... eschew magical thinking and move along.
   

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Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #192 on: October 02, 2013, 10:16:37 AM »
back to greed, huh?  Eughh.  Sometimes it's not uncontrolled greed.  Sometimes it just thoughtless convenience.  Or even semi-necessity.  Consider pesticides. They may do damage, but a lot of farmers see no other way because without them, they may have a very difficult time making a living.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that jb is right and that greed is really the problem.

Now what?

How does that get us any further along the path to an answer? How does junebug propose we solve that problem instead?

It's not helpful at all to identify a different source without also proposing a solution, so shifting the blame elsewhere is counterproductive and serves no purpose other than to protect people's feelings about their religious and/or spiritual beliefs. It's not a solution, it's an emotional response that doesn't provide any relief for the problems in question.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #193 on: October 02, 2013, 10:52:54 AM »
There are so many contradictions with blaming humans for all our problems, and also believing in an all-powerful, loving being who does nothing about those problems but sits back and watches while babies and poor people suffer.... :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #194 on: October 02, 2013, 11:10:21 AM »
There are so many contradictions with blaming humans for all our problems, and also believing in an all-powerful, loving being who does nothing about those problems but sits back and watches while babies and poor people suffer.... :P

yes, but he's there for you, unconditionally...
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #195 on: October 02, 2013, 12:22:43 PM »
this is my last post for junebug.  sorry for the digression.

Argument from ignorance from my understanding is an argument based on ignorance.  Y'all's claim is that to think there was any intelligence involved in our creation is ignorant and I say it is not.   Y'all will never admit this.  Y'all are very passionate about y'all's "opinion".  It will take an unbiased opinion to change my "opinion".  Are y'all, screwtape, really trying to claim "absolute" knowledge?  Really? 

Sorry junebug, that's not it.  By saying you are making an argument from ignorance, we are not simply saying you are stupid.  It is you saying you cannot think of a better explanation than the supernatural.  You are using your own admitted ignorance as your argument.  Observe:

I see no coincidences here at all these are things that could only be accomplished by a brilliant, compassionate and loving Creator/ the force that holds it all together. IMO

and:
The complexity of life is what shuts my brain down to the idea of evolution as the explanation.

There are several problems with these, but they do also contain arguments from ignorance.  In these posts you are saying, "I don't understand how else this could have happened."  That is admitting ignorance and using that as the basis for your beliefs.  And please don't take that as me calling you stupid.  I am definitely not doing that.  Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge or understanding.  And as I have said before, I am mostly ignorant.

To change these to arguments that are not from ignorance, you need to have data to show that "all these things here" could only have happened the way you say.  Or that the complexity you perceive really is beyond what evolution explains.  You would need to show how an intelligent designer did these things and have a testable idea that makes predictions.  ID makes no predictions.

As far as my hypothesis helping with cancer; pollution dumps carcinogens on us everyday.

Maybe.  But it is probably less than the semi-natural carcinogens we ingest from crappy food on a daily basis.  Which do you come in contact with more: dioxin or deep fried food?  hexavalent chromium or well done meat?  So even if we were to return to a hunter-gatherer culture, there would still be ample opportunity for cancer.  And that would also remove pretty much all of the rest of modern medicine, thus increasing sickness.  Either way you go, you have pros and cons. 

Suffering, sickness, and death are constants.


W/o uncontrolled greed we could all agree to use a less dangerous energy source to power our lives.

back to greed, huh?  Eughh.  Sometimes it's not uncontrolled greed.  Sometimes it just thoughtless convenience.  Or even semi-necessity.  Consider pesticides. They may do damage, but a lot of farmers see no other way because without them, they may have a very difficult time making a living.

I'm not defending myself I'm defending my POV.  I have changed a lot since February.  I have said very recently this was not the only reason I believe in a Higher Power.  Once my belief was accepted by my brain the Higher Power I speak of has seen me through many dark times. 

Yes I'm always on greed's ass.   I hate greed with a passion.  Especially now with the shut down!!!

I didn't know I needed to write a 2 page paper on the subject.  I read the wiki link.  I understand it. 

I'm sort of glad it's your last post on the subject. I hope not just me in general.  Please forgive me for not just taking the opposer's word for anything here.  Don't take it personal. I am skeptical of humans you know. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #196 on: October 02, 2013, 12:24:13 PM »
There are so many contradictions with blaming humans for all our problems, and also believing in an all-powerful, loving being who does nothing about those problems but sits back and watches while babies and poor people suffer.... :P

Well if there are no gods who are you blaming?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #197 on: October 02, 2013, 12:42:39 PM »
back to greed, huh?  Eughh.  Sometimes it's not uncontrolled greed.  Sometimes it just thoughtless convenience.  Or even semi-necessity.  Consider pesticides. They may do damage, but a lot of farmers see no other way because without them, they may have a very difficult time making a living.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that jb is right and that greed is really the problem.

Now what?

How does that get us any further along the path to an answer? How does junebug propose we solve that problem instead?

It's not helpful at all to identify a different source without also proposing a solution, so shifting the blame elsewhere is counterproductive and serves no purpose other than to protect people's feelings about their religious and/or spiritual beliefs. It's not a solution, it's an emotional response that doesn't provide any relief for the problems in question.

You have challenged me with this before.  I alone can do nothing about greed.  We need numbers.  I have tried and tried to get this community on my side and a thread was then started in defense of greed.   I have given links that support my POV and not a one of you viewed any of them.   In fact I was ridiculed for watching the stuff.  I support several organizations that are against greed and pollution.  On my FB page I share their posts with all my friends and never get a like.  There should be Transparency in Government and we should hold politicians accountable.  People just go on with their lives while greed takes over.  We could have an Americans against greed march with 1 million people.  Numbers are key. 

The sad thing I see happening is a lot more people dying before people step up.

Thanks for asking again.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Jag

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #198 on: October 02, 2013, 01:49:55 PM »
Sweetie, you're missing my point. Which, if I recall correctly, is the same problem we had the last time we had this discussion.

What I'm pointing out is not that you and you alone (or even in a huge gathering of like-minded people) are responsible for fixing anything. I am saying that all you are doing is moving the source of the problem from one cause to a different cause. That does nothing to correct anything, it just give presents a point of disagreement about the source of the problem. If a proposed solution is not forthcoming, what's the point in discussing a new root cause?

I don't even completely disagree with the point you seem to be making, but when you say things like "uncontrolled greed" you are in essence saying that there's nothing to be done about it anyway - the very definition of uncontrolled. That's where I disagree. Greed is not a "problem" that can be solved, so how 'bout we focus on solutions that actually exist?

The idea of a 1 million person march to protest greed makes a lovely mental picture, Where should that take place? What about here in Minnesota? We've got lots of very big international companies who have located their headquarters here - lots of greedy folks by your definition, plus we're more centrally located that DC is. Might make traveling to the march easier - assuming of course that the people most impacted by this greed epidemic can figure out how to get here, and find a place to stay, and afford to eat, and accommodate our weather, while not exceeding the limits of their resources..... hmm, it looks like this plan needs a little more thought, huh?

On the plus side, Minnesota is the home of Michelle Bachmann, so we'd probably get some attention from her and maybe Fox News. Just gotta figure out how to get a million screwed-by-greed people here and what to do with them once they arrive. That'll fix it.

Edited to correct goofy grammer
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #199 on: October 02, 2013, 02:52:42 PM »
There are so many contradictions with blaming humans for all our problems, and also believing in an all-powerful, loving being who does nothing about those problems but sits back and watches while babies and poor people suffer.... :P

Well if there are no gods who are you blaming?

IIRC, JB, you couldn't even define what you meant by "greed" in the other thread. To provide 7 billion people with a varied healthy diet, comfortable shelter, energy to stay warm and have light, clean water, basic medical care, education, transportation--anything beyond bare subsistence-- requires what you might call greed. 

There is nobody, no devil, not even "greedy people",  to blame for floods, hurricanes, tornadoes or volcanic eruptions. Ectopic pregnancies, car accidents, death by lightning strike, villages washed away by tsunamis, animal and plant extinction--sometimes bad stuff just happens.  I understand that.

What I don't understand is looking at the reality of the world and imagining that there is a loving powerful being standing around watching all those bad things happen, and doing nothing about it. What is this loving being waiting for, while innocent babies suffer and die? Is it like a movie hero who has to let things get really bad so it seems extra good when it rides in to the rescue?

You, JB, are the person who believes in loving beings with supernatural powers, so you have to explain or rationalize why the real world does not seem to match up with what should be if such a being existed. To paraphrase someone smarter than me, either it can't help and is not very powerful, or it won't help and is not very good. Either way, it's not worth my time.

Since I don't believe in any loving being watching over us, it does not surprise me at all that the imaginary loving being doesn't do much to help us out of our troubles. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #200 on: October 02, 2013, 03:33:05 PM »
Even the fact there are 7 billion people is a product of greed. A greed very deep down in our genes.

An earth will 200 million people would be a lot nicer place to live.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 03:35:05 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #201 on: October 02, 2013, 11:28:37 PM »
Even the fact there are 7 billion people is a product of greed. A greed very deep down in our genes.

An earth will 200 million people would be a lot nicer place to live.

Agreed, less people would be far better than what we have now.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Without God, Life Has No Meaning...
« Reply #202 on: October 03, 2013, 03:44:20 AM »
Well spoken, Epidemic! We do need to get back to the point of the thread.

"Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."

That about sums it up for me.  Seriously.  We get one life on this world, one brief shining chance at existence, and (as epidemic says) ultimately everything we do will be lost.  So the meaning, IMO, is to make this life the best we can for as many people as we can, so that as few of those chances at life are wasted as possible.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?