Author Topic: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning  (Read 1415 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Deus ex Machina

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Darwins +23/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • non-cdesign-proponentsist
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2013, 07:45:17 AM »
I don't think it's just Christians who would disagree with your interpretation.

The point of that phrase - and it's illustrated in Mat 10:35-36 -
The very fact that you disagree with Nam's version is proof, were proof needed, that the Almighty made a huge mistake at The Tower of Babel, as it is quite clear that He cannot express Himself properly and unambiguously in any known language. And then He has the bare-faced effrontery to tell us that if we do not obey that which we do not understand, He will send us to the Eternal Pits of Flame.

The further trouble is that people have pontificated about the meaning of every known Bible verse and created profitable Churches out of it. It seems that any man and his talking donkey can have a magic decoding ring and instantly "know" what the Invisible Friend meant.

The mere fact that I disagree with Nam is proof of no more than that we disagree. There are plenty of genuine apparent absurdities in the Bible without the need for anyone to go around inventing ones that aren't there.
No day in which you learn something is wasted.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1208
  • Darwins +124/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2013, 09:18:52 AM »
The revisions are taking negative words and making them sound more positive which changes the meaning; perhaps not of a basic whole but it does change the meaning.

It seems to me that the revisions are an attempt to make it more palatable.  "A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down."  :-* But if you change key ingredients in a recipe you do sometimes end up with a completely different dish.  For instance - Turkey Bacon.   :P
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6583
  • Darwins +516/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2013, 05:49:36 PM »
Quote
There are plenty of genuine apparent absurdities in the Bible without the need for anyone to go around inventing ones that aren't there.

We must be careful to keep to the topic here: we are not talking about "absurdities", we are talking about the softening of Christianity to fit in with more compassionate/thinking views in society. As I have explained, this is an alteration in the Word of God. This is embarrassing for how can something that changes be "unchanging"? And this is Nam's (and my) point.

There is a history and a reason to what Nam detects. In very brief terms, two things happened:

1. Luther and Henry VIII appeared and dismissed the pope's authority. Now, at this stage, you will know that the Church of Rome had not only The Bible (a Latin Version), but they also had the pope and the collected works of scholars to interpret what God meant. This comprised a whole library of books on advice, theory, etc. And it changed as "God revealed things" to various papists.

So, what was left for Luther and Henry VIII? The Bible. The Bible had to interpret itself. King James, anxious to avoid troubles in the UK, decided he would publish KJV1611. And if you read this (a complete version) you will see it had the Apocrypha and it had some alterations to make monarchs sound good and order that they should be obeyed. These changes from the Latin Bible of the RCs were probably the first intentional change to reflect the political circumstances of the day. (I will say that KJV1611 is pretty accurate in reflection what the early scriptures said - but it is, of courses based on what they had then and not what we have now. But this is another story.)

But what was the disadvantage that Henry and Luther gave us? As I said, every man and his talking donkey could say what he thought a Bible verses meant (see your idea and Nam's)

If you ever wonder why there are hundreds of protestant spin-off sects, but very, very few RC spin-off sects, you now have your answer.

2. Now, the next big change came in the late 19th century, The great Baptist preacher, Charles SpurgeonWiki stood firm in the "Downgrade" and "Landmark" softening of God's word. He preached as much Hellfire as he preached Salvation. However, others were against him Mary Baker EddyWiki and Christian Science, and evangelists, told of the "Feel-good Jesus." It became all the rage. Aimee Semple McPhersonWiki in particular, was having an off day and preached love instead of fear. She noticed that her collection plate was fuller that day, so she started preaching only the 'feel-good' parts of the Bible. Never ones to miss a trick there came a long line of travelling salvation shows and eventually an entire industry of radio and television evangelists, The message is "All you hear in church is what you want to hear; how much JESUS loves you, why everyone will go to heaven, why women have souls, slavery is bad, and people toss a fifty into the box so that GOD will look the other way for a week or two while they go out and keep sinning."

We add to this dwindling congregations and growing wealth, and we have self-interested people who create all manner of Bibles. "The Word of God you want to hear! With all the nasty bits left out or disguised and lovingly adapted to your particular thoughts on what Yahweh God of War and Thunder should be."

« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:55:53 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2013, 06:08:34 PM »

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried.

This seems like a very bold claim to make. On what basis do you make it? The 1611 reader had just as much intelligence and capacity to discern metaphor and use context as the modern reader I'd have thought.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Deus ex Machina

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Darwins +23/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • non-cdesign-proponentsist
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2013, 06:41:11 PM »
We must be careful to keep to the topic here: we are not talking about "absurdities", we are talking about the softening of Christianity to fit in with more compassionate/thinking views in society.

That presumes a motive that hasn't actually been established. The concordance with Luke, the metaphorical nature of the phrase in Matthew - already conceded by Nam - and the fact that no-one in the contemporary English-speaking world goes around using swords anymore, makes such a change in translation understandable. If you want to perceive in it some diabolical master-plan to deceive the masses about the true nature of the Bible, then knock yourselves out, but frankly I think it's a case of barking up the wrong tree, and a waste of time and effort. Such an effort, to "soften" the message by changing one word out of 750,000, would be futile anyway - unless there's some wholesale rewrite of much of the OT going on that the OP has somehow omitted to declare.

Quote
As I have explained, this is an alteration in the Word of God. This is embarrassing for how can something that changes be "unchanging"? And this is Nam's (and my) point.

AIUI, this notion that the Bible is the Word of God is essentially an idolatrous heresy. There's no reason for mainstream Christians to subscribe to it; and there's certainly no reason for non-Christians to entertain it, unless they particularly fancy erecting straw men or have a particular problem with bibliolaters in their backyard. I am highly confident that most Anglican and Catholic adherents would look at this thread and go "WTF"?

Shorn of that premise, there's no better reason not to update the Bible in keeping with current idiom and use of language to make it more accessible to contemporary readers - save for the kind of literary purism that gives people the vapours when similar things are done to Chaucer and Shakespeare.

On the rest, yes, I'll grant that Protestantism (also heresy, of course) is ripe for SPAG in a bizarre variety of ways. And giving the masses access to sacred texts opens up a diet of worms. I still fail to comprehend the reason for picking the 1611 KJV as any kind of authoritative baseline, though. From what I dimly remember about such things, I thought it was that particular version that was riddled with errors.

Quote
... every man and his talking donkey could say what he thought a Bible verses meant (see your idea and Nam's) ...

(I think that comparing Nam to a talking donkey is a little below the belt, Graybeard. Tsk, tsk!)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 07:01:57 PM by Deus ex Machina »
No day in which you learn something is wasted.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11922
  • Darwins +299/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2013, 06:44:06 PM »

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried.

This seems like a very bold claim to make. On what basis do you make it? The 1611 reader had just as much intelligence and capacity to discern metaphor and use context as the modern reader I'd have thought.

The reader, maybe but the world (well parts of the world) was quite illiterate (some could read and write minimally but mainly only the well off), and do you believe the average listener didn't think actual sword when they heard sword? Unless the priest/preacher explained during or afterward then that's different but I highly doubt they did.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1986
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2013, 07:13:21 PM »
None of us have any idea what the original words said.  In one (or several) of the languages, the word for sword might also have meant penis or fig farm or brother in law.

Translations change meanings.

I just translated one of my favorite poems from English into a few other languages and then back into English.  This is the result:

Some say the world will end in fire
Others say in ice
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire
But if I had to perish twice
I know that ice is also great
And would suffice

Japanese
?????????????????????
???????
???????????????
????????????
??????????????????
????????????????????
???????

Bengali???? ????, ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???
??? ???? ??? ????
??? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ????
??? ???? ???????? ???? ????
??????, ??? ??? ?????? ????
??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????
??? ?????? ??? ???

Spanish
Algunos, me dicen que el mundo terminará en fuego
Recomiendo el hielo
Quería haber disfrutado
Estoy a favor de incendio
Sin embargo, tenía que morir dos veces
Sé que el hielo, es genial
Será suficiente

Haitian Creole
Gen kèk, mwen di mond lan pral fini nan dife
Mwen rekòmande glas la
Mwen te vle reyèlman te renmen
Mwen gen kè sansib dife
Sepandan, li te gen disparèt nou nèt de fwa
Mwen konnen glas la se gwo
li ap sifi

And back to English
Some, I say the world will end in fire
I recommend the ice
I wanted to have enjoyed
I have tender fire
However, he has destroyed you twice
I know the glass is large
it will suffice

And for reference, here is the original again
Some say the world will end in fire
Others say in ice
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire
But if I had to perish twice
I know that ice is also great
And would suffice

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1208
  • Darwins +124/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2013, 09:02:49 PM »
^^My son and his friends used to get great laughs doing that with song lyrics.  But they would do it on Google translate using really obscure languages so the results were usually pretty wonky.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 09:05:26 PM by LoriPinkAngel »
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4588
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2013, 10:10:12 PM »

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried.

This seems like a very bold claim to make. On what basis do you make it? The 1611 reader had just as much intelligence and capacity to discern metaphor and use context as the modern reader I'd have thought.
Care to explain this statement? As we see the much more intelligent (sarcasm) Americans thought they would suffer illness if they drank from the same fountains,ate at the same lunch counters,sat in the same seat on the bus as their African relatives,until as late as the 1960's. Some still want segregation.

 Sheep will believe whatever they are told. What is percieved as metaphor has little to do with what is real
 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 10:12:21 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1208
  • Darwins +124/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2013, 01:09:44 AM »
^^^Was that aversion actually fear of illness or just widespread, purulent douchebaggery?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11922
  • Darwins +299/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2013, 01:17:11 AM »
^^^Was that aversion actually fear of illness or just widespread, purulent douchebaggery?

Most likely a bit of both.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2013, 01:21:38 AM »

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried.

This seems like a very bold claim to make. On what basis do you make it? The 1611 reader had just as much intelligence and capacity to discern metaphor and use context as the modern reader I'd have thought.
Care to explain this statement? As we see the much more intelligent (sarcasm) Americans thought they would suffer illness if they drank from the same fountains,ate at the same lunch counters,sat in the same seat on the bus as their African relatives,until as late as the 1960's. Some still want segregation.

 Sheep will believe whatever they are told. What is percieved as metaphor has little to do with what is real

Your recounting of silly racist behaviour has nothing to do with the point I was making.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline bertatberts

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1406
  • Darwins +48/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Humanists. Not perfect. Not forgiven. Responsible.
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2013, 04:24:46 AM »
Quote from: Deus ex Machina
That presumes a motive that hasn't actually been established.
Oh do come on! It may not have been established, but it is quite clear that was the intent.
Quote from: Deus ex Machina
The fact that no-one in the contemporary English-speaking world goes around using swords anymore, makes such a change in translation understandable.
Yes agreed. However to a modern form of a killing implement. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a wmd." It is better understood and keeps it's meaning.
Quote from: Deus ex Machina
If you want to perceive in it some diabolical master-plan to deceive the masses about the true nature of the Bible, then knock yourselves out, but frankly I think it's a case of barking up the wrong tree, and a waste of time and effort. Such an effort, to "soften" the message by changing one word out of 750,000, would be futile anyway - unless there's some wholesale rewrite of much of the OT going on that the OP has somehow omitted to declare.
Strawman. It's not simply one word it has been going on since the KJV. and you expect everyone in the future who reads the new version to understand that "Trouble" means the same as Sword/WMD.

Do take a look in a dictionary when you get a chance.

OED.
 
Sword, (the sword) literary military power, violence, or destruction

Trouble, cause distress or anxiety.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6583
  • Darwins +516/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2013, 09:49:37 AM »

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried.

This seems like a very bold claim to make. On what basis do you make it? The 1611 reader had just as much intelligence and capacity to discern metaphor and use context as the modern reader I'd have thought.

Jesus with a sword is also referenced in Luke and Revelations. A literal interpretation of the Bible can be seen in history, and, unfortunately today. Today, there are more apologists than at any other time in history because science has informed us of reality and society has softened. The number of apologists in 1600s UK was nil. You were told what to think and you thought it. God was a bearded white man who lived above the sky. Why should Jesus not have a sword? What’s not to like?

We must be careful to keep to the topic here: we are not talking about "absurdities", we are talking about the softening of Christianity to fit in with more compassionate/thinking views in society.

That presumes a motive that hasn't actually been established.
I have established it. The answer is popular appeal and its side product is money.

Quote
The concordance with Luke, the metaphorical nature of the phrase in Matthew - already conceded by Nam

I’m not sure any longer how I should explain this to you. It is all very simple. The Bronze Age peasants see Jesus as a heavenly warrior – he has a sword. Nowadays we don’t see that, so Jesus no longer has a sword. Today it is “metaphorical -> then it was literal: God’s word changes.

Quote
and the fact that no-one in the contemporary English-speaking world goes around using swords anymore, makes such a change in translation understandable.

Please do not use words like “a change in translation” – it is not. It is simply a change from the word used in early manuscripts

Quote
If you want to perceive in it some diabolical master-plan to deceive the masses about the true nature of the Bible,

Your imagination does you credit. You are giving me motives I never even thought of. The OP speaks of the softening of Christianity. It is true, the world is filled with fluffy-bunny types who thinks that God loves everyone and you and your pet hamster will go to heaven – well, you won’t.

Quote
then knock yourselves out,

I am knocking myself out because, to be frank, this is like talking to a brick wall. You are completely close-minded. More to the point you are denying that various verses are interpreted differently today and that various verses have been changed since 1611. But the whole point, as I said, ws that each and every verse of the Bible is interpretable and, because no one knows exactly what the writer intended, each is as valid as the other.

Even you cannot deny that. I have even told you why and how it happened.

Quote
Such an effort, to "soften" the message by changing one word out of 750,000, would be futile anyway
Yes, but the question is not about “one word” is it? You only have to look at the NIV to see the amount that has been changed to fit in with someone’s idea of what was said, something that is obviously led by current understanding and society’s views.

Quote
unless there's some wholesale rewrite of much of the OT going on that the OP has somehow omitted to declare.

I cannot decide whether this is a strawman argument or misses the point of new versions of the Bible.

Quote
As I have explained, this is an alteration in the Word of God. This is embarrassing for how can something that changes be "unchanging"? And this is Nam's (and my) point.

Quote
AIUI, this notion that the Bible is the Word of God is essentially an idolatrous heresy.

Really, which sect taught you that? It certainly wasn’t the Baptists or a protestant sect. (I'm beginning to have suspicions about you.)
 
Quote
There's no reason for mainstream Christians to subscribe to it;

Yet Bible literalism is seen all around us. Why might that be? Seven Days, A flood, seas parting, Samson, Gideon, and then virgin births and people rising from the dead,

Quote
On the rest, yes, I'll grant that Protestantism (also heresy, of course) is ripe for SPAG in a bizarre variety of ways.
Ah! That explains it all! You are a servant of the Anti-Christ, the vicar of Rome and believe everything… as interpreted by men... many men… all with slightly different opinions of each and every verse!



Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2013, 10:19:56 AM »

That presumes a motive that hasn't actually been established.

What do you make of the subtle change of using the word "servant" instead of "slave"?  We get that one all the time.  "when the bible talked about slaves, it really meant servants, because the slaves back then weren't really slaves..."

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1208
  • Darwins +124/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2013, 11:37:49 AM »

That presumes a motive that hasn't actually been established.

What do you make of the subtle change of using the word "servant" instead of "slave"?  We get that one all the time.  "when the bible talked about slaves, it really meant servants, because the slaves back then weren't really slaves..."

And how Mary M. somehow evolved into a prostitute...    The sin that caused the fall of Sodom had to be homosexualiity...  These things were shaded into to later versions by the assumptions of translators or the need of leaders to find someone to judge and persecute.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Deus ex Machina

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3029
  • Darwins +23/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • non-cdesign-proponentsist
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2013, 11:51:11 AM »
I see that Nam's out to bully me off this thread by being a complete and utter douchebag and started leaving rude comments and down-marks against my comments. Fine. I'm out. I don't have time for these petty, childish games.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 11:53:37 AM by Deus ex Machina »
No day in which you learn something is wasted.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11922
  • Darwins +299/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2013, 12:00:12 PM »
I see that Nam's out to bully me off this thread by being a complete and utter douchebag and started leaving rude comments and down-marks against my comments. Fine. I'm out. I don't have time for these petty, childish games.

You're making up shit as you go along, including me conceding something. I haven't conceded anything.

I'm talking about individual words being changed to make a nicer version of the Bible, and you're talking as if I'm talking about the whole of the Bible being changed to say something differently. It's not. It's still vile, just to a nicer extent.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11922
  • Darwins +299/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2013, 12:22:22 PM »

Nobody should have the slightest doubt that when a passage says “sword”, to a person in 1611 it meant sword and all the baggage that “sword” carried.

This seems like a very bold claim to make. On what basis do you make it? The 1611 reader had just as much intelligence and capacity to discern metaphor and use context as the modern reader I'd have thought.

The reader, maybe but the world (well parts of the world) was quite illiterate (some could read and write minimally but mainly only the well off), and do you believe the average listener didn't think actual sword when they heard sword? Unless the priest/preacher explained during or afterward then that's different but I highly doubt they did.

-Nam

Douche bag machina smited this comment for me being a "dick". That's funny.[1]

-Nam
 1. it's funny because he couldn't find a comment where I actually was being a dick and he chose this one.
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11922
  • Darwins +299/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2013, 01:42:02 PM »
Here's another verse, basically non-important but the point is: even that they change:

2 Corinthians 5:3
(ERV)
Quote
It will clothe us and we will not be naked.

(NIV)
Quote
because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

(KJV)
Quote
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

KJV - clothed (but the "if" at the beginning suggests that you could be already found naked)

NIV - clothed (removes the suggestive "if" but adds a "because" to remove the possibility that you could already be naked)

ERV - clothed (removes all doubt and further interpretation)

A simple, basically nonsensical line, changed slightly. Does it lose it's overall meaning? Probably not but it's the little changes all over the Bible that lessens it from what it may have originally had been; making it different and therefore up for scrutiny in being anything True™.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6583
  • Darwins +516/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2013, 08:03:09 PM »
In support of the proposition that the Bible is being softened, there is “Are Bible Translations Progressively Softening God’s Word On Divorce?”
http://www.danielrjennings.org/arebibletranslationsprogressivelysoftening.pdf

The answer is, “Yes, at least since 1945.” The writer is a fully-rigged, ocean-going Christian. He brings up countless changes in this subject alone. Changes that I see as criticising the levels of divorce amongst Christians (apparently it is higher than for atheists but I’d have to find the figures on that.)

Then we have Softening God's Word by Berit Kjos, December 2003 http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/news/3-purpose.htm
 
Quote
Unregenerate "believers" who love the ways of the world will want a church that fits that world. To make them feel at home -- and to satisfy curious seekers -- the church must now re-invent itself. Since no one can really understand God's truth unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to their hearts [see 1 Cor 2:9-16], God's Word must be simplified so that everyone -- Christian or not -- can relate to it.
It's not surprising that Pastor Warren quotes passages from The Message (a paraphrased "version" of the Bible by Eugene Peterson) over ninety times. Many of those simplified passages alter both the words and the meaning of the Scriptures. But they fit the points Pastor Warren is trying to make. So do other paraphrased Bibles that he uses. [/size]
There then follows a set of examples showing the alteration in meaning towards the fluffy-bunny Christian.

I could go on. As far as I am concerned, Nam’s point is valid and proven. The unchanging God is changing and the Churches are doing a whitewash job.

In a few years time, God will be a delightful, bearded grandfather who comes down the chimney at Christmas and who, if you ask Him about the genocide of the Amalkelites and of the population of the world, will reply… “Oh no! You must be thinking of someone else, all that was allegorical – it means I love kittens.”

Of course, we could take a wider view and say that as (i) god is all in the mind and (ii) everyone’s mind is different and (iii) this god is nothing more than your opinion of him, then we should not be surprised that in days when mass-murder, biological warfare and getting bodies out of graves is frowned on, this god inspires people to rewrite his book in their own image…
 
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11922
  • Darwins +299/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Simple Change Brings A New Meaning
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2013, 09:34:14 PM »
Thanks Graybeard. I've been sick for a week (mainly light-headed and dizzy), and it hurts my eyes to look at my phone for too long to research my point. I have at least 8 versions of the Bible bookmarked on my phone, and, of course: biblegateway <--- great resource (some of the versions I have bm are not on that website).

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey