Author Topic: I don't wanna go to heaven!!  (Read 3338 times)

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Offline Traveler

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2013, 11:24:16 AM »
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2013, 11:45:40 AM »
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

Suffering for past sin.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2013, 11:55:24 AM »
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

Someone told me that very thing at work today. She also said she could "sense her soul" especially when she is saying something that is coming out wrong but "deep inside" she knows what she means - in her soul.  I asked if she knew what organ was responsible for this activity, but she was lost in babblespeak...  I also asked how that was distinguished from her thoughts, but again nothing coherent.   

I never espoused this stuff as a believer... where does it come from, other than SPAG?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2013, 12:00:49 PM »
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

Someone told me that very thing at work today. She also said she could "sense her soul" especially when she is saying something that is coming out wrong but "deep inside" she knows what she means - in her soul.  I asked if she knew what organ was responsible for this activity, but she was lost in babblespeak...  I also asked how that was distinguished from her thoughts, but again nothing coherent.   

I never espoused this stuff as a believer... where does it come from, other than SPAG?

The relentless activity of squeezing out a turd?

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2013, 02:13:56 PM »
I remember several people telling me that only our souls go to heaven, we have no bodies, and that the trials of earth are forgotten. If that were true, I can't imagine what the point of being on earth was supposed to be.

If we forget our lives on earth, what will be in our --for lack of a better term-- brains? What will the soul consist of, if not our memories and personalities? Without a personality forged in the ups and downs of our earthly existence, who would we be? Without memories, we would have no anger, no regret, no curiosity, not even joy at being reunited with loved ones, or relief that we are in heaven instead of earth or hell.

That implies that all the souls will be identical, just disembodied brainless ghost zombies floating around. Does not sound like any heaven. Sounds horrible, like the Matrix.  :o
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2013, 07:37:11 PM »
Again....theists may not believe the soul is body-less. Heaven is whatever they want it to be.
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2013, 06:15:25 AM »
How am I supposed to know that?  I believe it is our spirits not our flesh that move on.  It certainly wouldn't be heaven if our spirits were crippled.
I wasn't asking about people crippled in the flesh.  I was asking about mental states i.e. infantile, senile, and retarded.
Do our "spirits" retain any characteristics of who we are in this life - our personas, our names, memories of our loved ones, and experiences?


I don't see how a spirit could be crippled.

Okay fine I get that, lets move beyond crippled. 
Could a person with dissociative identity disorder have multiple spirits who all end up in Heaven? 
Would the spirits be linked into one, or separate? 
Would they recognise each other? 
What if one of the split personalities on earth was a real badass, and the other a complete sweetie?  Could sweetie get right away from the badass in Heaven?

That is an antagonizing question.  I don't think you have put any deep thought whatsoever into how Heaven would be.  Even an atheist should be able to come up with some sort of celestial paradise.   If there is a heaven it's supposed to be a place of beauty, peace and rest.  The much needed rest at the end of a long hard journey.


smites are for babies....I give them up about 6 weeks ago and I'm feeling so much better.  Nobody here can change my karma :P.

See you on the other side. ;)


Again....theists may not believe the soul is body-less. Heaven is whatever they want it to be.

Heaven is what it is, there is no harm in using your  imagination.  Why do we have one if we can not use it to imagine our afterlives?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline William

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2013, 07:46:25 AM »
Even an atheist should be able to come up with some sort of celestial paradise.   
But that would just be making it as I go along. I'm trying to find truth.
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2013, 03:11:47 PM »
I have an easier solution. If we get to reincarnate into whoever we want and erasing our memory, our sense of eternity will be forever erased and get to live again without the fear of eternity. Hope I made myself clear  :laugh:

Offline anthony_retford

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2013, 06:59:16 PM »
I bet most of you could spend a lot of time with people like Darwin, Einstein and Newton and many other great minds that you admire.  Oh my I could sing with Patsy Cline, there are so many singers I could sing forever and ever and ever!!!

Reminds me of a segment in a life enriching course back in the 70's. Seems there was this young beautiful woman who knew Prince Charming would come for her. So she waited at the gate for two years until she saw in the distance this wondrous knight coming her way. Wow, was she excited and she rushed inside to make herself look even better, then rushed outside to greet him. Closer and closer he got and was he handsome - the most handsome Prince in the country. Now he was just 50 yards away and she stepped out the gate to be swept of her feet. 40, 30, 20 then 10 yards and she was in heaven, reaching out for him. But he took no notice of her and just rode past.

Seems we would be in the same boat with Darwin, Einstein and Newton - our levels of experience and knowledge would be far different than theirs that we would not be happy in their company. I am in a similar situation with a Chinese wife. She does not have any common experiences before we met and there are long periods of silence, which would be filled in another relationship with an American wife.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 07:05:32 PM by anthony_retford »
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2013, 09:06:47 PM »
That is an antagonizing question.  I don't think you have put any deep thought whatsoever into how Heaven would be.

Actually, I think the exact opposite is true. I think you, Junebug, have put so little actual thought into the concept of heaven that you can't truly assess whether or not it would be good or bad to go there. You simply let your emotions tell you how great it would be. The problems that William brought up can only be considered if you think deeper. You basically responded with, "heaven is great, that's all you need to know." What is less deep than that?

The questions asked are real questions that deserve an answer. There are many more.
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2013, 04:20:47 AM »
That is an antagonizing question.  I don't think you have put any deep thought whatsoever into how Heaven would be.

Actually, I think the exact opposite is true. I think you, Junebug, have put so little actual thought into the concept of heaven that you can't truly assess whether or not it would be good or bad to go there. You simply let your emotions tell you how great it would be. The problems that William brought up can only be considered if you think deeper. You basically responded with, "heaven is great, that's all you need to know." What is less deep than that?

The questions asked are real questions that deserve an answer. There are many more.

What does that have to do with whether the question was antagonizing?  Why dream up problems for heaven?  That just does not make sense.  It's just another attempt to try and explain what we can't understand.  This is not a serious inquiry into the existence of heaven.  It's more like a mockery of what others believe. 

Those words come out your mouth not mine. I really hate it when you atheists put words in my mouth.    I totally said we can not know what heaven is like.  I totally said that.

The word heaven in my definition is a place where there is nothing put peace.  I put my faith in the Powerful Source hence we came, in the beauty and splendor of the universe.


Sure don't take much to get a thumbs up.  I think it's funny that's all it takes to impress you/whoever gave the thumbs up! hehehehehehe :laugh:
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2013, 04:53:01 AM »
Even an atheist should be able to come up with some sort of celestial paradise.   
But that would just be making it as I go along. I'm trying to find truth.

What is the imagination for? 

Did you ever think if we knew the truth about heaven we'd flock there like birds and never go through this part of life?  There have been many times I felt like going not even knowing with absolute certainty but believing it is better than here.  What stopped me, I'll tell you what, the unknown.  That's what.  If we had tour guides and brochures we'd all take that one way trip to peace.  We don't though and that is why,IMO.  We would not care to cure disease it would be a different life.  It would have a profound effect about the way we don't live this life.

I wish I could help you find your truth I really do. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline William

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2013, 09:40:10 AM »
What is the imagination for?
I imagine it is likely that the capacity to imagine evolved because it's a big advantage in planning ahead for different scenarios and contingencies. Think of primitive hunters imagining how to bring down a mammoth with just puny spears and teamwork, talking tactics before the hunt about possible 'what-ifs' and ideas to avoid being killed, while also imagining a threat to families left behind from predators and enemy tribes, and then taking action to minimise risks. 

Did you ever think if we knew the truth about heaven we'd flock there like birds and never go through this part of life?  There have been many times I felt like going not even knowing with absolute certainty but believing it is better than here.  What stopped me, I'll tell you what, the unknown. 
That is a brave admission of ignorance Junebug72.  Actually I'm going to +1 the integrity of it  :)

That's what.  If we had tour guides and brochures we'd all take that one way trip to peace.  We don't though and that is why,IMO.  We would not care to cure disease it would be a different life.  It would have a profound effect about the way we don't live this life.
These are powerful thoughts from you Junebug72.
And since there is no clarity or evidence of an afterlife we really should place greater value on our lives and the lives we can touch here on this earth - where we know for sure it's all real. This is the life where we know love exists and makes a difference.
Strong beliefs about second chances to be happy diminishes our lives right here and now.  Islamic suicide bombers have clear beliefs about their own post-bang privileges in heaven!  Think of the amazing case of Mother Teresa, who many people see as an icon of love, but who was so intent on preparing sick people for an afterlife that she stopped worrying about cures, diagnosing illnesses, using pain killers, and even let basic hygiene standards slip ... stopped using fresh or disinfected hypodermic needles on patients  :-\

On the other hand if there was indeed a loving God out there, why wouldn't it be ABSOLUTELY clear about the incentive of heaven and the hurdles to qualify. What does it have to lose?  Something as amazing as a God could easily come up with an unambiguous policy: "My people, exercise pure love in all your dealings with each other, the animals, and the environment. Don't try check out early without my consent, before you've completed the tests I give you, or you will disqualify yourself from the reward. Your reward, if you pass the pure love test, will be precisely as follows ...."

But there's nothing like that - only our various theologies, conflicting ideas, and imprecise imaginings.  All completely lacking in foundation except theology - basically the cunning and manipulative stories of schizotypal shamans contrived to secure their own little slice of heaven on earth in this life.  There no evidence, no physics, and no sound reasoning to back up any of humankind's wild imaginings about heaven. 

I wish I could help you find your truth I really do.
Yep, that would be nice - I understand and hold nothing against you for not being able to help.
So meanwhile I'm going to live my life as if it is the only one I'll ever have. (I wish I hadn't wasted a few decades of my life through being brainwashed as a child and then grappling with the obvious gap between reality and religious belief.)  For the rest of my life I want to act with as much integrity and courage as I can muster. No beliefs where there is no evidence. Happy to change belief where there is new evidence.  BS detector turned up to the maximum setting.

If there is a God or some kind of supreme thing out there with a place for me after death, let it make itself known to me.  My mind is open.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 10:31:32 AM by William »
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Online natlegend

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2013, 08:03:34 PM »
My point is, after 80 years or so of living, I think I'd had enough. Time now for nothing. I realise I won't know I'm dead, but that's sorta the point too. Before I was conceived I didn't know about it and that was ok, so when I'm dead and I don't know about it that'll be fine too. Eternity is just... too much...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline thunderridge

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2013, 11:34:35 PM »
Every now and then, particularly after reading heaps of theist posts on WWGHA, I get to thinking "What if there IS a god?" But then I immediately dismiss the idea like a good atheist, the notion is ridiculous. But one thing has been bugging me for a bit now, what if there not only IS a god, but a heaven as well, and we ALL get to go there and live forever? I'm thinking, that would be awful, just plain terrible. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to die anytime soon, I certainly don't have any sort of death-wish, but I was kinda looking forward to the eternal rest that comes with, well, being dead. Like really dead. No heaven, no hell, no limbo, no eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, just... plain... dead. Restful.

Is that weird? Has this idea occurred to anyone else?

I remember a while back you said death is like the ultimate sleep in. Nothing to fear  there.  I just want to sleep in after death.

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2013, 05:56:29 AM »
Yes William a road map would be nice.  I can't argue with you there. 

Yes many things that mankind has imagined are being used today.  Our imaginations are our most valuable asset,IMO.  So why then condemn the use of the imagination when it comes to our existence?   Our imaginations will find the answer if it is even findable, right? 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2013, 08:33:41 AM »
Our imaginations will tend to find out lots of wrong answers, if all we have to go on is imagination.  They might be rich, entertaining wrong answers.  But there still won't be anything behind them other than imagination.

Why do you condemn the use of rational thought when it comes to assessing our imaginations?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Jag

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2013, 10:35:16 AM »
Our imaginations will find the answer if it is even findable, right?

No, but our imaginations might point science in the right direction, perhaps. Our imaginations are only a tool, and intangible until action is taken on what was imagined. Lucky for the rest of us scientists make far better use of their imaginations than most people do, by keeping it directed and focused. They aren't the only ones - engineers and inventors come quickly to mind, among others.

"If you can imagine it, you can achieve it" - that's a variation on a common inspirational phrase. What it should really say, however, is the following : Provided it doesn't violate the laws of physics, if it can be imagined, it can potentially be achieved by someone.

I can imagine all kinds of things that cannot be achieved here on planet Earth, because, for example, gravity works all the time.

Either a god exists, or it doesn't. Either heaven exists or it doesn't. Imagination has no bearing on it. other than to satisfy the very human desire for life to have meaning and make some sort of sense. It's not an argument that can support the existence of a deity, an afterlife, or a heaven.

On a more personal note, I also realize that you have deeply personal reasons for needing to hold on to this belief at this point in your life - I'm a little concerned about you getting involved in these kind of conversations here, now, at a time that you already have plenty of REAL challenges to worry about. If this kind of discussion is helpful (giving you something to fight against maybe?), that's fine, but consider the consequences please. Your health is far more important than this particular argument - you know we'll still be having it when you are healthy again. You can of course tell me to MMOB - you are perfectly capable of setting your own boundaries.  ;)
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2013, 03:43:14 AM »
Seems we would be in the same boat with Darwin, Einstein and Newton - our levels of experience and knowledge would be far different than theirs that we would not be happy in their company. I am in a similar situation with a Chinese wife. She does not have any common experiences before we met and there are long periods of silence, which would be filled in another relationship with an American wife.

Thats it exactly.  But in addition, what on earth makes some people so full of themselves that they think that anyone in heaven will be over the moon when random stranger approaches them and butts in on their conversations?  We all like to think that we are on a par with those we admire, whether intellectually, creatively, or whatever, and in some cases possibly we are.  But that still doesn't mean they would necessarily be pleased to see us.

If I turned up on Brian Cox's doorstep today, and said "Hi Brian, let's talk black holes" he would most likely call the police.  Why on earth would he choose to engage with a random stranger that he never met before - he probably gets a lot of people approaching him.

Now translate that to heaven, where there are billions more people, AND no hassles over travel.  "celebrities" in heaven probably have great queues of the hoi-polloi waiting to screech a song with them, or share their great deep thoughts about how black holes are really snooker pockets.  Nice though those celebs may be, the chances of any of us getting into their circle of cloe friends is next to zero.

Heaven is certainly NOT going to be "us" hob-knobbing with the great and good.  Because the great and good will want to be with the friends and family they had on earth.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2013, 01:41:14 PM »
I seem to remember as a child being told that we will all be reunited with our loved ones in heaven.
Keeping things simple here but imagine someone looses their wife/husband early on in life.
Many years later they find love again. After death would all 3 live happily together? Would love 1 be happy to be around love 2?  Just doesn't work does it?
Blithe Spirit springs to mind.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2013, 01:57:54 PM »
^^^ several of jeezus' biographers fed him a similar question from the Sadsuckeers about dead spouses showing up in heaven and JHC further muddied the topic by saying no marriage in heaven.  So all this talk of seeing loved ones, at least in the sense of a loved one being a spouse - appears to be part of the erased data from our future robot memory sticks. 
 
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Jonny-UK

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2013, 02:08:37 PM »
  So all this talk of seeing loved ones, at least in the sense of a loved one being a spouse - appears to be part of the erased data from our future robot memory sticks. 
 
So we don't even get to keep our memories.What ever happened to mans free will? The rules seem even worse when we die or will we not be allowed to remember it was better being alive?
Robots indeed
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Offline epidemic

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2013, 03:05:23 PM »
Is it official that we will not have our memories?   I.e. specified in the holy scriptures?

Offline neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2013, 03:10:51 PM »
Only a mind-numbed robot would not spend a lot of time weeping over their loved ones burning in hell for all eternity, wondering why they are no longer married to their beloved spouse (or spouses, if that's the case), and wondering what happened to the billions burned up on the earth to make way for the new heavens and new earth...
Is it explicitly stated "no memories in heaven" in the 'holy' scriptures - no, but what is explicitly stated about that murky, wishy-washy, be whatever you want it to be place?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Online natlegend

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2013, 08:10:25 PM »
My born-again christian aunt says she worries all the time about how when she (inevitably) reaches heaven, I'll be burning in hell. She realises I'm a nice person and it pains her to think that just because I'm atheist I'm gonna fry.

I dunno about anyone else, but if I were a christian with family that I loved who were atheist, that sort of thing would really keep me up at night.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2013, 10:11:54 PM »
Natlegend, just remind her that you morally deserve that punishment.  It's justice, and she should feel good that divine justice is being served to someone who, in God's eyes, is evil enough to deserve eternal torture.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2013, 08:48:28 AM »
Natlegend, just remind her that you morally deserve that punishment.  It's justice, and she should feel good that divine justice is being served to someone who, in God's eyes, is evil enough to deserve eternal torture.

Now who can argue with that logic?

it seems to be the general concensus that the memories of bad things will be removed but several verses seem to indicate that we will know our loved ones, and joys of our earthly existence. 

Of course if you remove the pain from our lives that just raises more questions.  I have heard that pain in our lives helps us appreciate the good.  We are also tested by god with pain.  If we are to maintain the lessons learned in life, then I would guess we would need to remember the source of those lessons (the pain)








neopagan
Can you show me where that is it stated your memories are wiped out.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 08:55:43 AM by epidemic »

Offline neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2013, 09:09:12 AM »
neopagan
Can you show me where that is it stated your memories are wiped out.

Like I said, nowhere does it say "memories wiped out" but try this verse on for size... how would it occur otherwise?
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan