Author Topic: I don't wanna go to heaven!!  (Read 2409 times)

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Offline natlegend

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I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« on: September 16, 2013, 12:45:20 AM »
Every now and then, particularly after reading heaps of theist posts on WWGHA, I get to thinking "What if there IS a god?" But then I immediately dismiss the idea like a good atheist, the notion is ridiculous. But one thing has been bugging me for a bit now, what if there not only IS a god, but a heaven as well, and we ALL get to go there and live forever? I'm thinking, that would be awful, just plain terrible. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to die anytime soon, I certainly don't have any sort of death-wish, but I was kinda looking forward to the eternal rest that comes with, well, being dead. Like really dead. No heaven, no hell, no limbo, no eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, just... plain... dead. Restful.

Is that weird? Has this idea occurred to anyone else?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline William

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 12:54:18 AM »
Well the Pope just gave atheists a free pass to heaven - but my copy of the Heavenly Entertainment Program seems to have been lost in the mail. 
Can anyone fill us in the details?
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Offline Traveler

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 01:36:33 AM »
Death isn't restful. It simply is ... nothingness.

I've thought about it and its as restful as being under anesthesia or thinking about life before I was born. It is nothing. Doesn't appeal to me at all, but doesn't scare me either. Without consciousness, the feeling of restfulness is simply ... not there, as with any other feeling.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Nam

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 02:24:32 AM »
Is that weird? Has this idea occurred to anyone else?

Nope. Right there with ya.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Mrjason

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 04:01:42 AM »
I like the Da Vinci quote on death;

Quote
As a well-spent day brings happy sleep, so life well used brings happy death

kind of brings me a bit of peace, as I hope that when death comes I'll be grateful for a break.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 06:12:20 AM »
I remember when I was a semi-brainwashed New Ager, when I was 16, and I explained the principle of reincarnation to a Christian (who obviously already knew about it). Although reincarnation seems like a logical, evolutionary concept, he didn't like it, because it meant having to do shit again and again. However he wasn't too concerned about what he'd be doing in heaven for eternity.

There is a tech cult that believes that quantum computers will eventually be able to re-compute us, and resurrect us.

http://www.thatsreallypossible.com/news/1068/revived-in-the-future/
http://turingchurch.com/2013/01/23/can-science-resurrect-the-dead/
http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry/can-science-resurrect-the-dead

In this case, the buggers will not leave us alone, so now is your time to opt out, by anticipating the protocol specifications for an opt out. I anticipate that the opt out format will be similar to an ordinary internet packet, starting with a version number (implicit 8 bit word on first byte, for version 01), then a word length, length length, length, language option,  ...  Important in version 1 is byte 5, where you specify whether you are joking or not. 01 means that you would like to be resurrected in the case  that it involves lots of interesting and pleasurable things, and power over whether to change your mind, later.

01 08 02 25 01 01  I FUCKING OPT OUT ::END

Mind you, we could also use XML
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Nam

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 06:28:28 PM »
My mind only reads DOS.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline natlegend

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 07:48:09 PM »
It's just the going on and on and on bit that makes me feel tired. I'm very much looking forward to... nothingness. Imagine getting to heaven and St Peter saying "Well, you've got FOREVER to do whatever you like now". AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! KILL MEEEEE!!! Oh crap, I'm already dead. Maybe I'll just spend eternity going slowly crazier and crazier. Now there's a plan...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 09:51:48 PM »
I am with you there, natlegend... the whole concept used to freak me out and I am more than happy for eternal nothingness as opposed to eternal "wtf??"

I called it fear of heaven back in my believer days here on another thread that I started... http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25336.0.html
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 10:34:45 PM »
If, when we died, we each got the opportunity to explore the universe forever, I might go for that. But sitting around and worshipping a god for even a minute would be unbearable.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline natlegend

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2013, 01:18:30 AM »
I believe even Q from Star Trek got bored of being omnimax...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline William

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2013, 03:50:11 AM »
When I was little my mother said to me: "William, my boy, when you get to heaven ALL your questions will be answered!"
(Apparently I was a pain in the ass with constant questions.)

I think that could be okay as long as they don't dump the whole lot on me first day   :)
If they like string them out one answer every Thursday for eternity that might work. 

Party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday,party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday,party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party the weekend, sleep most of Monday, think up tricky question Tuesday, enjoy the anticipation Wednesday, get answer Thursday TADA!!!!, glow in the new knowledge Friday, party ....

....  :?

... aaaaarg fuck no!   :(   Let me rethink that.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 04:47:10 AM »
IMO, there is no such thing as time in the after world.  Time stops as soon as you leave the earth, at least slows down dramatically. We could be there infinitely and it only feel like a 100 years. 

The only good thing about dying is the anticipation of the beautiful journey it may offer.  Don't go by what the bible said use your imagination, you have one for a reason, there's no shame in using it.  I for one definitely consider my friends and family but I don't believe there are strangers in the after world.  I could go on and on infinitely about all the possibilities there are! In your version nat, you'll be resting but you want have the pleasure of knowing your doing it but if that gives you peace I do not want to disturb you. :) 

The spirit is not bound by flesh and there is a lot to explore out there.  I intend on finding a big fluffy cloud and resting with the most wonderful peace I've ever known.  I may be too excited at first.  Really I'd like to talk to our Maker first.  Plead my case for the blessing to help watch over my brothers and sisters of planet earth, after a much needed tour of the universe. ;)  I bet that's why we don't get hit by asteroids that would destroy mankind.  Those that have gone on before protect us. 

Until then I am bound with bars of bones and flesh and gravity.  I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!  I'm sorry folks but this is way more exciting than just being dead.  All is IMO, of course.   ;D I know we all have 1. 

I'll see you on the other side my friends!!!  The bible isn't God's word.  I don't believe in their hell!!!!!!  It's manipulation at it's core.

I bet most of you could spend a lot of time with people like Darwin, Einstein and Newton and many other great minds that you admire.  Oh my I could sing with Patsy Cline, there are so many singers I could sing forever and ever and ever!!!

The possibilities are endless when you open up your beautiful minds!!! ;) :) :laugh:
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 10:32:00 AM »
I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!

Some people get more preparation than others. A lot of people die at age 1, after deciding that they have malnutrition, or herpes.

Oh, Lord, I am really prepared for the next life, because I died at age 1 of herpes.

Or, we can take the perspective of a person who has tripped on DMT. I ripped this off Bluelight, from here : http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/614553-Horrible-devastating-DMT-trip

If you read that thread, make sure you get to comment #29.

===============================================================================================


Ok so first some background information I am a very experienced psychedelic drug user, I've smoked weed every day for the last 5 years with the exception of tolerance breaks, I've tripped on LSD over a 100 times sometimes taking very large doses, and prior to this experience had smoked DMT about 8 or 9 times.

Also before this trip there were 3 trips that defined things for me I guess. The first one was a DOB trip where I took a ridiculously large amount and tripped for about 33 hours at peak! and it was the most euphoric pleasurable experience of my life and is probably what I've been trying to chase and get back all these years. The second was my first real acid trip with a large dose this trip was good and I believed everyone was me in a joyful way, then something happened at the 4 hour mark I somewhat became possessed so to speak by something undescribable and started to get a strong feeling that I was in fact the only thing here and all I see is merely fantasy blocking me from the fact that I'm all alone. Then the next couple of times I did a high dose acid trip I believed that everyone was me in different bodies and although this wasn't great I much prefered this than being all on my own with just imaginary figments, and this seemed to be true for me for quite some time.

Anyhow now to the trip, the day before I'd taken some LSD just a tab nothing intense just a bit of fun. In the morning I smoked some DMT not a large amount as I was quite cautious as I hadn't done it in a while it was rather pleasurable but nothing revelatory. So later on in the night in my room I decided I'd have another small amount of DMT the same amount as earlier in the day as I didnt feel like a fully blown trip just wanted a little fun.

So with the pipe loaded and incredible string bands "Three is a Green crown" song on I lit the DMT and literally as soon as the smoke came out reality snapped/disappeared/evaporated. As I blew the smoke out of the window this "Spirit" entered me, the smoke was barely out of my mouth when I started getting dragged through these coloured tunnels I was somewhere else somewhere more real than the world I once knew. As this was happening there was this insatiable feeling coming from this spirit (Who may be me or my sub concious) that I am the only one that exists and that everything is just imaginary, this made me feel very alone and bad, a picture of my mother came up and then faded away as if to say she never really loved me as she never really existed I just imagined her to deal with the reality of being alone. I then somewhat fainted face down in to a pillow and with eyes closed still in this different dimension felt as though I was dieing and returning to the true reality from whence I came, I then realised I was actually dieing my face was pressed against the pillow and I couldn't breathe at this point I lifted my head insantly and opened my eyes. (It is important to know that I wasn't controlling this I was merely observing I was possesed by what appeared to be me outside of the simulation coming in, also this all seemed to happen within 60 seconds real time). When I opened my eyes I was back in my room but half of it was different in a way I can't describe.

The horibble weird things didn't stop I started to realise I had already done this before and had this exact same trip as though I was living this all again and was angry at myself for smoking the DMT again (However now I've come down I realised I never did have this trip before, but I wasn't sure if I'd lived this life before and life is just an endless cycle of the same thing living the exact same life unaware until I'm on large dose psychedelic drugs). Then even freakier the incredible string band song has a line which goes "Life remembering Life" this line looped what seemed 8 times as I was actually remembering this perhaps infinite number of previous lives, in real life the line plays one time but here it played 8 times over and over and I had to turn my ipod off to stop it the negative creepy feeling at this point was beyond anything, also the song had 5 stars on the display when it only has four.

Then I had my pipe in my hand, there was a bowl on 3 sides of the pipe I kept spinning it and seeing and feeling a bowl on each of the three sides instead of the regular one again I had to throw my pipe for this to end, this was also strange as the song I had been listening to was called "THREE is a green crown", I then looked at facebook on my laptop to grind me back to reality hopefully somehow someone had posted a picture using a webcam effect had warped there face to look as though it only had one eye in the position of the third eye, (This had a profound effect in me too though I can fully remember what it was) then I somewhat gained control of my mind again but I was affected. The things that happened seemed to show there was no way reality is real, the fact that the song I chose corellated with my experience where I was remembering I'd done all this before with the song looping life remembering life I see no way how things can be real. None of this felt fake it felt more real than anything before and this makes me sad.

I spent the next couple of hours in a horibble state of anxious depression trying to convince myself it was all just fantasy but the facts seem against me. I drunk Brandy to ease the horrible inner tension and watched episode after episode of seinfeld in an attempt to bring me back to reality forget it all happened live ignorantly. What made me feel even worse both during the trip and in reflection was the fact I was putting myself through these horrible experiences I was the only one that existed and I was the one putting myself through this pain, for the first time in my life I felt somewhat evil for some reason I wanted to put myself through these masochistic experiences for the whole of eternity.

I started coming up with ideas that maybe the bible is true and I was posessed by some sort of demon convincing me of these bad things or that maybe it was a different part of me it felt like tha part of me that creates my dreams was controlling it and maybe I was just insane. Both of these options seemed much more enjoyable than being completely alone torturing myself for all eternity, but that's what seemed to be true.

Today is the next day surprisingly I had a somewhat decent sleep of 4 hours, I am still shaken up by it and still deep down believe that I am alone here but the possibility of demon posession and possible insanity gives me hope and allows me to keep going. I still am anxious as ever and took the day off work today to try and regain myself and inevitably I'll have to assume everyone does exist again even though I don't believe it.

Anyway that will be the last time I ever smoke DMT again and probably the last time I do LSD in fear of some sort of flashback, I would also strongly advise other users if in fact you exist and arent just a figment of my imagination that you don't smoke DMT ever, the mere fact this sort of experience is possible is too much of a risk, last nights trip was somewhat of a life wrecker and I now have to wait for time to heal my wounds. Also you must note that I've done double possibly even triple this dose before with nothing like this which confused me very much however this is the first time I have smoked it twice in one day.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 10:38:43 AM »
I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!

Some people get more preparation than others. A lot of people die at age 1, after deciding that they have malnutrition, or herpes.

Oh, Lord, I am really prepared for the next life, because I died at age 1 of herpes.

That's because THIS is the final life, and their sins in the previous life are what caused them so much grief in this life.  Not in a "Buddhisty Karma constant rebirth" kinda way, just in a "you get two lives - and THIS is the second and final one" sense.

Makes as much sense to claim this is the afterlife as it does to claim this is the "pre-life".  It also answers a lot of nagging questions about "good things happening to bad people" if you assume this life is punishment for the last. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 08:29:54 AM »
I believe this life is preparing us for the next level of life!!!

Some people get more preparation than others. A lot of people die at age 1, after deciding that they have malnutrition, or herpes.

Oh, Lord, I am really prepared for the next life, because I died at age 1 of herpes.

That's because THIS is the final life, and their sins in the previous life are what caused them so much grief in this life.  Not in a "Buddhisty Karma constant rebirth" kinda way, just in a "you get two lives - and THIS is the second and final one" sense.

Makes as much sense to claim this is the afterlife as it does to claim this is the "pre-life".  It also answers a lot of nagging questions about "good things happening to bad people" if you assume this life is punishment for the last.

It is tragic when a child dies at one but it was not God's fault she died it's us humans.  Children dying is why I hold so strongly to belief in Heaven.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 08:31:32 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 08:52:27 AM »
Wishing something was true doesn't make it so.

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline William

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 06:13:27 PM »
Children dying is why I hold so strongly to belief in Heaven.

Junebug72, just curious about a few aspects of Heaven.
When a child (or say a stillborn baby) gets to Heaven, is it stuck in its child's mind or does it get like a software upgrade to an adult level of experience and wisdom?
And oldies who have developed dementia ... do they get a roll back to a previous version of themselves?
Do retards get a bug fix?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 06:27:37 PM »
IMO, there is no such thing as time in the after world.  Time stops as soon as you leave the earth,

Then there would be no after-life.  Just a frozen, static instant.  No joy - joy is an experience.  No love - loving is an action.  Nothing good or bad would happen.  It would be, for all intents and purposes, the same as nonexistence.

at least slows down dramatically. We could be there infinitely and it only feel like a 100 years.

This is entirely different, and also kind of pointless.  "Slowing down" time only makes a difference when you're comparing two rates.  If all the time in the universe started going 100x slower than right now, nothing would seem any different to us, because our perception of time would slow down as well.  Heck, we wouldn't even notice if time stopped, for the same reason I explained above:  Our perception would be frozen.  It takes time to notice that time has (or hasn't) passed.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 06:43:42 PM »
This is what I wanna know. What part of me would actually go to heaven? The part that is a 14 year old wise-ass who got in trouble in bible study for asking the wrong questions? The part that loves violent murder mystery stories and super-hero movies? The part that likes to ogle the hot guys in said super-hero movies? The part that loves to hold newborn babies and kiss their tiny feets?  Or the old crochety deaf crippled part that I will be ten years from now?

It seems that all the things that make us human would be gone in favor of either wandering the universe forever, worshipping god forever, or repeating an earthly existence like in Groundhog Day, but a nice, pleasant one, forever.

With my luck, heaven will be sitting in a plastic chair next to a homeless drunk man at the DMV.  Without a magazine. Forever. I am with natlegend and the rest of ya-- that forever part seems so....eternal. :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 02:19:53 AM »
This is what I wanna know. What part of me would actually go to heaven? The part that is a 14 year old wise-ass who got in trouble in bible study for asking the wrong questions? The part that loves violent murder mystery stories and super-hero movies? The part that likes to ogle the hot guys in said super-hero movies? The part that loves to hold newborn babies and kiss their tiny feets?  Or the old crochety deaf crippled part that I will be ten years from now?

Good point - I am a different person today to the one I was even a few years ago.  I know I will be different in future.  Frankly, the 15-year-old me would be an absolute nightmare to live with in heaven (heck, the me today is no picnic, but back then......!)

Not to mention the culture shock.  We are used to seeing grandpa as old, and our children as young.  What "age" are we all in heaven?  All mid-30s, maybe?  How weird will that be?

And specifically, those who die as babies, toddlers, children.  What physical aspect will they have in heaven?  Babies forever?  But more importantly, what will their mental aspect be?  Because if a baby is going to learn and develop and change in heaven, that that presumably means that so will everyone else.

And if change in heaven is possible, then it is eminently possible that someone there might one day change so that they no longer qualify.....then down the trapdoor they go.  Imagine a heaven where - with the REALITY of god revealed to you - you exist in a perpetual state of fear that tomorrow you may no longer measure up.

A dictatorship of the worst kind.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 05:13:27 AM »
Wishing something was true doesn't make it so.

Doesn't make it not so either. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 05:26:48 AM »
Children dying is why I hold so strongly to belief in Heaven.

Junebug72, just curious about a few aspects of Heaven.
When a child (or say a stillborn baby) gets to Heaven, is it stuck in its child's mind or does it get like a software upgrade to an adult level of experience and wisdom?
And oldies who have developed dementia ... do they get a roll back to a previous version of themselves?
Do retards get a bug fix?

How am I supposed to know that?  I believe it is our spirits not our flesh that move on.  It certainly wouldn't be heaven if our spirits were crippled.  I don't see how a spirit could be crippled.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 05:38:02 AM »
Without time in heaven, there is no motion. With no motion, material or otherwise, it is simple a frozen state which would very similar to death to us.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline William

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2013, 07:07:19 AM »
How am I supposed to know that?  I believe it is our spirits not our flesh that move on.  It certainly wouldn't be heaven if our spirits were crippled.
I wasn't asking about people crippled in the flesh.  I was asking about mental states i.e. infantile, senile, and retarded.
Do our "spirits" retain any characteristics of who we are in this life - our personas, our names, memories of our loved ones, and experiences?


I don't see how a spirit could be crippled.

Okay fine I get that, lets move beyond crippled. 
Could a person with dissociative identity disorder have multiple spirits who all end up in Heaven? 
Would the spirits be linked into one, or separate? 
Would they recognise each other? 
What if one of the split personalities on earth was a real badass, and the other a complete sweetie?  Could sweetie get right away from the badass in Heaven?
Git mit uns

Offline Mrjason

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 07:39:12 AM »
^^^ wouldn't the badass go to hell and the sweetie go to heaven?
Assuming that there is a corrorally bad place...

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 09:13:34 AM »
Heaven is to every believer exactly what they want it to be. If they believe it is a place to hang with dead loved ones on streets of gold,it is. If they believe it is endless roads on which to drive a Ferrari,it is. The stark reality of getting up every morning to sing praise to a nasty god for eternity hardly enters their minds.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 09:16:34 AM »
Ah - but there's no need for sleep in heaven, hence no getting up - you give praise all the time.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline neopagan

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Re: I don't wanna go to heaven!!
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2013, 11:06:11 AM »
maybe that's why these effing crickets sing my praises every day in my office... I'm their god?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan