Author Topic: The supreme arrogance of god  (Read 1490 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2013, 10:59:13 AM »
The arrogance exists in the people who think they are following exactly the right god. Not in the non-existent deity himself.

But believers project a lot. And while they may not intend to make their god sound arrogant, they still do a good job.

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Offline Dante

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 11:28:57 AM »
 Arrogance, huh?

Is it arrogant to be willing to admit when you're wrong, and change your beliefs based on new information?

Scientists (and most atheists) are willing to do just that. To seek out new information about reality, about how the world works, and use that information to guide our choices, to change our beliefs.

Nay, it is not science nor atheists that are arrogant. It is the religious.

The religious believe that this planet, these resources we enjoy, were put here soley for human benefit. The religious believe that they are special little snowflakes, being looked after by a magic sky fairy. The religious believe we were created in the image of gods. The religious believe that we are not animals, and not related to the animal kingdom. The religious believe that they get to live forever. The religious believe that they have all the answers to all the questions.

Now really, who's the arrogant one?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2013, 11:51:13 AM »
Screwtape is right though - its not arrogance if its true.  If the world truly WAS created for mankind, then is it arrogant to say that?

For example: I have an IQ of 172.  Is it arrogant to state that fact?  Bare bones, its not.  If arrogance is truth, then we must be arrogant, or liars (or simply never speak)!

Arrogance, I think, is more an attitude to the facts than a result of the facts themselves.  Its how often you mention your status, the situations you do it in, the way you say it.

So is god arrogant for being worshipped?  If he accepts worship quietly and without comment, because he IS the Big All That, then probably he is not arrogant.  The moment he starts getting all umpty when he is NOT worshipped.....THAT is when "jsut the facts, ma'am" turns into arrogance.  The second he punishes people for not worshipping it is when he becomes the arrogant jerk.

A Supreme Being, deserving of worship, who was NOT being arrogant about it, would be entirely indifferent to whether worship happened or not.  He would see no difference between the person on their knees 24-7, and the atheist who never offered a single "thank you" in their lives. 

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Boots

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2013, 02:00:52 PM »
How is that not the very definition of supreme arrogance?

How is arrogance defined?  It is the behavior of acting superior to other people. 

If you were the omnipotent creator of all being, would you not actually be better than other people?  Would you not be justified in thinking you were superior to the talking chimps you created on a speck of dust orbiting a medium sized star in one of trillions of galaxies?  What would be the point of humility if you were omniscient?

Just sayin'

I do not doubt you, screw.  What I'm saying is, the gawd that creates the fleas like us *so that we worship him*, THAT'S arrogance.  And from what I can tell, that's the purpose of heaven--a place for the worshipful to worship, constantly sing about gawd's awesometude and prostrate themselves in abject devotion for all eternity.

Of course, I really believe gawd is no more arrogant than Voldemort or any other fictional character.  I'm just saying this so the theists can get to the truth of their man-made imaginary friend: he really ain't so hot.  :-)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2013, 04:46:06 PM »
How does that make it non-arrogant?

I dunno.  How does it make it non-arrogant?   Why are you asking me?  I don't recall saying it wasn't arrogant.  I only pointed out that it if all that god stuff is true, then his arrogance would be justified.  Right? 

We are used to only accusing peers (more or less) of arrogance.  Or at least, only other people.[1]  This is (sort of) reasonable because even if someone is smarter than you, he are not necessarily better than you.  Or at least, there is probably some area in which you are better. 

But what if that is not true?  What if he really was better in every way?  What if he wasn't even a human, but something obviously more?  It would not really be arrogance to say that, would it?  Sure, he could be a dick about it, but is that arrogance or just being a dick?  Or maybe arrogance is being better and being a dick about it?



 1. It is unlikely you will accuse animals of being arrogant.  Or, if you do, there are bigger problems afoot
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Offline median

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2013, 02:37:44 AM »

Horrible. Just horrible. I can't even imagine that.

How do I respond to such a sensitive subject without coming across as looking like a dick to you guys? I will try my best.

While something like this is certainly tragic, I will say that some people would not have committed suicide. This is not a knock on Kevin. It's just that I have noticed that people deal with tragedy in different ways. I have no idea what will happen to his soul. One of the things I always struggled with was people committing suicide. As far as I know, you can't repent of of a sin after you die. So I have no idea if suicide is a one way ticket to Hell. I certainly hope it is not but this is one of my stumbling blocks with the faith.

Usually people think committing suicide is the coward's way out, but I can not say that this man was a coward. That seems very low to me. I am confused.

While I'm glad that you are (perhaps) starting to see a little bit of reality, I'm not quite sure why. As with many other things, couldn't you just rationalize this and use the all too common "sin did it" argument? Why is it that for any difficult thing in life Christians (such as yourself) fall back on canned answers like "sin did it", "demons did it", or "God did it"? Do you really truly believe (in your "heart of hearts" so to speak) that such answers actually carry any weight? Stop and think about it for just a second. Wouldn't you have to admit that if anyone else (from any other religion) made rationalizations like this they would be identical with being superstitious? These notions of sin, hell-fire, demons, talking snakes, talking donkeys, sticks turning into snakes, dead people rising, and a god-man multiplying fish and loaves of bread x5000 from nothing are all superstitious beliefs (and found in lots of other superstitions around the world). Look at your surroundings and think about your life. Have you had any actual experience with any such things as these - ones which others could confirm? Have you experienced any of these extraordinary claims in the same fashion as the reality of drinking a glass of water or meeting a family member for lunch?

Take a good hard look at that photo again. If there was truly a loving creator of everything we now experience don't you think it would not allow such things to be? Look at that child! Really look at it and think! It's insane to think there's an actual loving being watching it all and doing nothing. YOU ARE MORE LOVING THAN THAT YOURSELF! The truth of the matter is staring you right in the face. The God portrayed in that bible is not real. It is imaginary. That photo, along with Kevin Carter's suicide, is exactly what we would expect if there was no 'being' watching over us or caring about our affairs. Just think about it.

A truly loving/caring God would not allow this. It just wouldn't. Only someone who is completely blinded by ideology could ignore this very simply fact. Any truly loving person would step in immediately.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 02:44:07 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2013, 03:30:47 AM »
I dunno.  How does it make it non-arrogant?   Why are you asking me?  I don't recall saying it wasn't arrogant.  I only pointed out that it if all that god stuff is true, then his arrogance would be justified.  Right? 

To me, your wording implied that it wouldn't be true arrogance, since it was justified.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2013, 09:20:30 AM »
I do not doubt you, screw.  What I'm saying is, the gawd that creates the fleas like us *so that we worship him*, THAT'S arrogance. 

Wait a second here.  I used the dictionary definition of arrogance.  That may be insufficient.  But I think I need some more explanation before I accept this.  Why is it arrogant (emphasis on it) for an omnipotent being to create puny little mortals to worship him?  It might be unethical, but why arrogant? 

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2013, 09:42:58 AM »
I do not doubt you, screw.  What I'm saying is, the gawd that creates the fleas like us *so that we worship him*, THAT'S arrogance. 

Wait a second here.  I used the dictionary definition of arrogance.  That may be insufficient.  But I think I need some more explanation before I accept this.  Why is it arrogant (emphasis on it) for an omnipotent being to create puny little mortals to worship him?  It might be unethical, but why arrogant?

Arrogant:
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities

We have the ability to choose not to worship (as evidenced by most of us on this site) the conceit lies in the fact that despite the choice being available not to worship we are expected to worship none the less and he gets pissed off if we don't.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2013, 09:44:16 AM »
Wait a second here.  I used the dictionary definition of arrogance.  That may be insufficient.  But I think I need some more explanation before I accept this.  Why is it arrogant (emphasis on it) for an omnipotent being to create puny little mortals to worship him?  It might be unethical, but why arrogant?
Which dictionary?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogant

Quote
: having or showing the insulting attitude of people who believe that they are better, smarter, or more important than other people : having or showing arrogance

1
:  exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official>
2
:  showing an offensive attitude of superiority :  proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <an arrogant reply>

It's the insulting, offensive, and/or overbearing aspect of the 'demanding worship' bit that would make his behavior arrogant and therefore make him arrogant.  God may be right to believe that he is better, smarter, or more important than his creations, but that doesn't matter.

A charge of arrogance is a function of both the entity engaging in behavior and those witnessing or otherwise being affected by that entity.  It's not an objective characteristic - it's a judgment call.  If someone does not find it insulting or offensive for an entity to demand worship, then that person would not find god's behavior arrogant.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2013, 09:52:28 AM »
Wait a second here.  I used the dictionary definition of arrogance.  That may be insufficient.  But I think I need some more explanation before I accept this.  Why is it arrogant (emphasis on it) for an omnipotent being to create puny little mortals to worship him?  It might be unethical, but why arrogant?

Arrogant:
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities

This is where I agree with screwtape.  This, after all, is GOD.  In what way could god - the creator of everything and able to think reality to his will - in any way have an exaggerated sense of his own importance or abilities?  God IS the Big I Am, that's not arrogance, that's fact.

Jdawg makes a good point that how one asserts one's superiority can seem arrogant - but I'd be interested to know in what way a creature that created everything there is could make people aware of that fact without coming across as arrogant.  Its not the sort of thing that can casually slip out in conversation - "I made a bookshelf this weekend", "I made a kennel", "I made the sun and moon and stars and all existence"....<silence>.  It's fact, but it sounds arrogant.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2013, 09:56:12 AM »
Wait a second here.  I used the dictionary definition of arrogance.  That may be insufficient.  But I think I need some more explanation before I accept this.  Why is it arrogant (emphasis on it) for an omnipotent being to create puny little mortals to worship him?  It might be unethical, but why arrogant?

Arrogant:
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities

This is where I agree with screwtape.  This, after all, is GOD.  In what way could god - the creator of everything and able to think reality to his will - in any way have an exaggerated sense of his own importance or abilities?  God IS the Big I Am, that's not arrogance, that's fact.

Jdawg makes a good point that how one asserts one's superiority can seem arrogant - but I'd be interested to know in what way a creature that created everything there is could make people aware of that fact without coming across as arrogant.  Its not the sort of thing that can casually slip out in conversation - "I made a bookshelf this weekend", "I made a kennel", "I made the sun and moon and stars and all existence"....<silence>.  It's fact, but it sounds arrogant.

Its the exaggerated sense of one's own abilities that I'm commenting on.
god doesn't have the ability to make worship mandatory so why insist upon it?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2013, 09:57:02 AM »
If someone does not find it insulting or offensive for an entity to demand worship, then that person would not find god's behavior arrogant.

Question - if a Colonel requires that a Captain salutes him, is that arrogance, or is that a logical outcome of their situation?
If a master carpenter with 40 years experience expects his day-1 apprentice to follow his instructions, is that arrogance, or the logical result of their relative skills and abilities?
In either case, would we call "arrongance" on the superior person?

I can't see it as arrogance for a god to be unsurprised that people would worship him.  I can't even call it arrognace that he would generally expect that worship to be the norm.  And, to be honest, I'm not even sure I could call it arrogant for a god to say "I created everything there ever will be - why don't you recognise that I am great?"

He is a dick, sure.  I'm just not sure that arrogant is the right word.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2013, 09:59:00 AM »
Its the exaggerated sense of one's own abilities that I'm commenting on.
god doesn't have the ability to make worship mandatory so why insist upon it?

I want to be clear here - your point is that "it doesn't matter that god is a being of colossal power who created the entire universe and has the power to shape reality to his wishes - he DIDN'T make worship mandatory so it is arrogant to expect it"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2013, 10:02:17 AM »
Its the exaggerated sense of one's own abilities that I'm commenting on.
god doesn't have the ability to make worship mandatory so why insist upon it?

I want to be clear here - your point is that "it doesn't matter that god is a being of colossal power who created the entire universe and has the power to shape reality to his wishes - he DIDN'T make worship mandatory so it is arrogant to expect it"?

when you put it like that...
Perhaps the arrogance lies in the supreme confidence in his powers of persuasion over mortals

"i don't need to make worship a built in quality of mortals because I can convince them on their own terms to do it anyway"
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 10:05:33 AM by Mrjason »

Offline jdawg70

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2013, 10:18:23 AM »
If someone does not find it insulting or offensive for an entity to demand worship, then that person would not find god's behavior arrogant.
Question - if a Colonel requires that a Captain salutes him, is that arrogance, or is that a logical outcome of their situation?
It's dependent on context, is it not?  Presumably, at some point in the captain's existence, he made the willful decision to join the military and understood the chain of command and the expectations therein.  If this captain had somehow made it into this situation without any clue or understanding of the expectations of the military, I think it would make sense for the captain to think that the colonel is being arrogant.  We, being 3rd party witnesses that do understand the situation, would not think it arrogant.  Well I think most of us anyway - maybe some would actually find it arrogant.

Again, arrogance is a judgment call - a subjective evaluation.  There is no requirement for a charge of arrogance to apply globally.  There is no such concept as true arrogance in the objective sense.
Quote
If a master carpenter with 40 years experience expects his day-1 apprentice to follow his instructions, is that arrogance, or the logical result of their relative skills and abilities?
In either case, would we call "arrongance" on the superior person?

I can't see it as arrogance for a god to be unsurprised that people would worship him.  I can't even call it arrognace that he would generally expect that worship to be the norm.  And, to be honest, I'm not even sure I could call it arrogant for a god to say "I created everything there ever will be - why don't you recognise that I am great?"

He is a dick, sure.  I'm just not sure that arrogant is the right word.
And for you it wouldn't be the right word.  For me, it would be.  He's not made his expectations remotely clear, yet he's going to allow me to be eternally tortured if I don't just do what he says?  I find that to be, among other things, arrogant.  But that's me, not you.  Again - subjective call we're talking about here.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2013, 10:19:13 AM »
when you put it like that...
Perhaps the arrogance lies in the supreme confidence in his powers of persuasion over mortals

"i don't need to make worship a built in quality of mortals because I can convince them on their own terms to do it anyway"

Again - why would he NOT?

I know its all hypothetical and nonsense, but as I keep saying, this is a creature whose demonstrated powers and abilities are colossally more vast than we could even begin to imagine.  He created billions upon billions of stars, thought all the laws of physics and chemistry and biology into existence in a finely tuned and carefully crafted whole.  He took nothingness and made existence, and he created all forms of animal and plant life, millions upon millions of different creatures.

What possible reason could be have NOT to expect us to fall to the floor gasping and giving out with the "we're not worthy"s?  I just don't see arrogant there, I'm afraid. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2013, 10:20:35 AM »
He is a dick, sure.  I'm just not sure that arrogant is the right word.
And for you it wouldn't be the right word.  For me, it would be.  He's not made his expectations remotely clear, yet he's going to allow me to be eternally tortured if I don't just do what he says?  I find that to be, among other things, arrogant.  But that's me, not you.  Again - subjective call we're talking about here.

Fair 'nuff.  Ain't language grand?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2013, 10:28:40 AM »

Again - why would he NOT?

I know its all hypothetical and nonsense, but as I keep saying, this is a creature whose demonstrated powers and abilities are colossally more vast than we could even begin to imagine.  He created billions upon billions of stars, thought all the laws of physics and chemistry and biology into existence in a finely tuned and carefully crafted whole.  He took nothingness and made existence, and he created all forms of animal and plant life, millions upon millions of different creatures.

What possible reason could be have NOT to expect us to fall to the floor gasping and giving out with the "we're not worthy"s?  I just don't see arrogant there, I'm afraid.

The fact it that we haven't all fallen to the floor, yet he remains so convinced of his plan that he refuses to change it. Is this arrogance?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2013, 10:29:47 AM »
I’m with Screwtape. It’s hard to see any god as “arrogant” because that is part of the job-description. Gods mirror human experience: the hard but fair boss but in spades: the boss who treats you well when you do the job well and like shit when you do it shit despite having been told how to do it properly. Occasionally he has to “fire” someone (in Hell.)

Other gods weren’t much better. They all seem to adhere to the maxim, “Humans are there to be taught, cared-for and occasionally used for your own amusement.” Famine, plague, war, are little more than firing a waterpistol at a cat – you’ve nothing against cats as such, it’s just amusing to see what happens.

These characters don’t need to justify anything – who would they justify it to?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2013, 04:35:00 PM »
Which dictionary?

I dunno.  I checked 4.  My original post had links, but something disrupted my connection and I lost the post.  So, when I rewrote it, I condensed the main jist of it. 

Is this really an issue?  I did say it was perhaps insufficient as it was.


It's not an objective characteristic - it's a judgment call.  If someone does not find it insulting or offensive for an entity to demand worship, then that person would not find god's behavior arrogant.

yeah, I kind of said that when I said:
Or maybe arrogance is being better and being a dick about it?



Arrogant:
having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities
...
Its the exaggerated sense of one's own abilities that I'm commenting on.

When you are the omnipotent creator of all being how is it possible to have an exaggerated sense of your imporance or abilities? 

I see a lot of dickish behavior on god's part.  But I think arrogance is not the right word.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2013, 05:01:47 PM »
^ This is starting to remind me of HAL's old red button/blue button thread where the forum was split on whether or not they'd cave and worship Yahweh if he proved himself to be real.
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Offline Boots

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2013, 10:45:52 PM »
You know, reading the most recent posts, I'm beginning to think that my original intent of using "arrogant" wasn't accurate.

My point is beyond the fact that eternal worship is expected; it's that eternal worship *is the design*.  It's how god set the system up.  so what word(s) covers that tendency/characteristic?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2013, 03:47:37 AM »

Again - why would he NOT?

I know its all hypothetical and nonsense, but as I keep saying, this is a creature whose demonstrated powers and abilities are colossally more vast than we could even begin to imagine.  He created billions upon billions of stars, thought all the laws of physics and chemistry and biology into existence in a finely tuned and carefully crafted whole.  He took nothingness and made existence, and he created all forms of animal and plant life, millions upon millions of different creatures.

What possible reason could be have NOT to expect us to fall to the floor gasping and giving out with the "we're not worthy"s?  I just don't see arrogant there, I'm afraid.

The fact it that we haven't all fallen to the floor, yet he remains so convinced of his plan that he refuses to change it. Is this arrogance?

"this is a creature whose demonstrated powers and abilities are colossally more vast than we could even begin to imagine.  He created billions upon billions of stars, thought all the laws of physics and chemistry and biology into existence in a finely tuned and carefully crafted whole.  He took nothingness and made existence, and he created all forms of animal and plant life, millions upon millions of different creatures."

Who is more likely to be correct - in frankly any opinion?  The being described above?  Or the finite creatures crawling on the surface of a nondescript planet, who have the resources to feed everyone (but don't), who regularly elect politicians who perpetuate their problems, who burn through natural resources without a thought for the future, who think X-Factor is the pinnacle of culture.....and who (in my case) can't remember what I'm doing next week unless I'm sitting in front of Outlook?

When you are THAT much "more" than the other party, is it arrogance to continue to believe you are right, even if and when the other guy says "you are wrong"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2013, 04:25:31 AM »
When you are THAT much "more" than the other party, is it arrogance to continue to believe you are right, even if and when the other guy says "you are wrong"?

Yeah you're right, I'll concede that point.

The only other argument for arrogance that I could come up with is that god has set himself a test of his abilities by not making us automatically worship.
Being omnimax he already knows the outcome of the test, what purpose does the test serve other than self satisfaction. Is this not a hallmark of arrogance?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2013, 08:20:53 AM »
Of course, the flip side of everything I have been saying is this.

My premise that the god is NOT arrogant rests on the fact that he has SO much more power than us, SO much more wisdom, that he and us are just so utterly far apart that there is simply no comparison.  Like Sebastian Vettel and a ten-year-old heading for a car, Seb would simply assume he would be driving.  No arrogance, just an unthinking acceptance of how things are.  He would be bewildered if the 10YO jumped in the drivers seat - I fully expect his brain would vapour-lock at the sheer nonsense of the situation. 

But the "non-arrogance" only works if the god is a being of simple power.  The moment you introduce any ability other than sheer brute force into the equation, when you introduce intelligence or wisdom or love, and the thought of punishment for any transgression becomes immediately as ridiculous as the thought of the "transgression" in the first place. 

Punish a creature so far below me in comprehension?  Inconceivable!

A god who is not just power, but that is also love and wisdom, would not be arrogant to know he was so far above us.  But - and this is vital - such a god would ALSO be fully aware of the dramatic difference between him and us and the thought of punishment would be one that simply wouldn't occur.

If this being was Sebastian Vettel, with a level of wisdom comparable to his level of driving skill, and you said to him "punish that child for getting behind the wheel", he would look at you with exactly the same degree of confusion and vapour-lock.  Punish the ant?  Take vengeance on the gnat?  What ridiculous planet are you living on?

A god - a true god - would not, could not be arrogant.  But by exactly the same token, a true god would recoil in disbelief from the thought of any punishment, or hell, or sanction - would not comprehend any reaction other than perhaps an amused tolerance and indifference.

A true god is not arrogant.  A true god creates no hell.  The two statements come as a package deal - because a god that creates punishment and hell for the ants is clearly NOT a god who IS "all that and a bag of chips".  He would indeed be just a petty tyrant, and arrogant would indeed be an apt description, because he would NOT have that clear superiority.

Just a much bigger stick.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline MadBunny

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Re: The supreme arrogance of god
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2013, 12:42:40 PM »
I can't remember where I saw it, but somebody pointed out that perfection looks like perfection no matter which angle you're looking at it.


Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.