extrasensory powers

[wright]

On this thread (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25410.msg568689.html#new), Greatest I am claimed:

I, for instance, believe in telepathy because I did it twice. I see it as a natural thing or I could not do it, I cannot do the supernatural, ---- and Noetic science has basically proven it to be a true phenomenon.

I don't find the evidence, or thus far lack of it, for so-called extrasensory abilities (telepathy, clairvoyance, telekinesis, etc.) convincing. These are phenomena that, if they really exist, would have measurable effects on the physical world.

Yet despite many claims, no such effects have been consistently shown. People who claim to have such powers fail, refuse or back away from empirical testing: http://www.ask.com/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge?o=2800&qsrc=999&ad=doubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com#Controversies_and_claimants

It would be amazing if such things were true. An entirely new field of science to be investigated, its connections to other fields to be explored... but such investigation has to have concrete, repeatable results to go forward. AFAIK, no such yet exist.

[ParkingPlaces]

Ahhh, wright. Ye of absolutely zero faith. Where is your imagination?

Of course that stuff is true. How else did my ex make mountains out of molehills? 

Outlandish claims, from people who have no standards for truth, get old.

If, as the poster you cited said, someone can almost accidentally be telepathic and then voluntarily quit, then, on a planet with 7 billion people, there should at least a few others who relish rather than reject their power, and example after example of good and bad deeds done via mind tricks should abound. If such abilities were possible in this universe, I don't think they would be limited to just a few reluctant individuals.

Here is a challenge. Right now I am thinking of a very specific vehicle. Any telepath worth his or her salt should be able to tell me what it is. And why I thought of that vehicle in particular. Until someone can do that, I'm not going to bother to believe.

[Traveler]

He did telepathy twice. Big woop. During a lifetime, if telepathy actually worked, two times would be a pathetic record. Chance, coincidence, the law of averages ... every now and then we'll stumble upon the correct answer. To the uninformed, or the gullible, it seems like magic, telepathy, remarkable powers of the mind. Balderdash.

[Greatest I am]

There has been much written lately on telepathy between twins.
I do not know why, unless it is brain formation, twins would be more prone to telepathy than the rest of us. It is a shock to the system and perhaps they can let their guard down more readily to a close match. I do believe that because it is an assault, we all have a shield, if you will, against intrusion.

I think it a rare case where a person like myself would be able to get past our natural shields.
It takes a strong desire and emotional content before I could do what I did. I cannot do it anymore as far as I know because I cannot draw up that emotion and desire on request. The needs that allowed me to do it are no longer within me.

You should know that I am not about to push for belief in this as I have nothing to show and would myself resist belief without a direct experience.

To those who think I am delusional. I don't care. I have a witness that says we would both have had to share this delusion and even as there is some belief that that could happen, it is even less likely to be true than what I have claimed.

Regards
DL

[wright]

^^^As I said on the other thread, I appreciate your honesty in admitting you don't have empirical evidence. If you don't, you don't and that is the gold standard on this forum with regard to extraordinary claims.

The thing is, claims like this...

There has been much written lately on telepathy between twins.
I do not know why, unless it is brain formation, twins would be more prone to telepathy than the rest of us. It is a shock to the system and perhaps they can let their guard down more readily to a close match. I do believe that because it is an assault, we all have a shield, if you will, against intrusion.

... are vague in ways that make many regulars here curious. Can you supply links to these twin telepathy studies, or at least book references? What about brain formation makes telepathy between twins easier, or telepathy possible at all? How can we test for the existence of this "shield"? 

That you are making these claims implies you want a discussion. For your claims to be taken seriously, you need to provide evidence.

This may be a misunderstanding on my part: perhaps you're simply sharing your beliefs and aren't interested in debating them. You only need to say so.

[Greatest I am]

^^^As I said on the other thread, I appreciate your honesty in admitting you don't have empirical evidence. If you don't, you don't and that is the gold standard on this forum with regard to extraordinary claims.

The thing is, claims like this...

There has been much written lately on telepathy between twins.
I do not know why, unless it is brain formation, twins would be more prone to telepathy than the rest of us. It is a shock to the system and perhaps they can let their guard down more readily to a close match. I do believe that because it is an assault, we all have a shield, if you will, against intrusion.

... are vague in ways that make many regulars here curious. Can you supply links to these twin telepathy studies, or at least book references? What about brain formation makes telepathy between twins easier, or telepathy possible at all? How can we test for the existence of this "shield"? 

That you are making these claims implies you want a discussion. For your claims to be taken seriously, you need to provide evidence.

This may be a misunderstanding on my part: perhaps you're simply sharing your beliefs and aren't interested in debating them. You only need to say so.

The net is full of people and reports for telepathy and or telepathy in twins. Some tell me I am only giving my side when I link so I let people do their own research.

The usual reports of successful telepathy are not like what I experienced in intensity and to me are only interesting because they seem to just skim the surface of the minds and do nor really penetrate deeply into them.

All I offer is a personal experience and I will not argue for belief because I cannot prove anything.

All that I say that I do not have direct knowledge of is speculation on my part, like thinking we all have shields of some kind.

I just offer that as an explanation of why there are so few claim of telepathy.

Regards
DL

[wright]

^^^Fair enough. Though I would point out that many make such claims, then fail to provide evidence. You're at least honest in admitting that you don't have any.

[Greatest I am]

^^^Fair enough. Though I would point out that many make such claims, then fail to provide evidence. You're at least honest in admitting that you don't have any.

No one who claims telepathy can have evidence to show anyone except for the one he communicated with. The same applies to apotheosis or any revelation or enlightenment from other than the usual human and natural sources.

If I would have received the usual, I come quickly or follow Jesus, I would have told the voice to fuck off and come back with something useful.

As it is, I did get something useful. I was told to think demographically.
Quite a help to understanding that.

I then set the bar of my expectations higher, chose to ignore the entity I had found, --- and continue to seek the best rules to live by as I continue to fight right wing believers.

Regards
DL


 

[ParkingPlaces]

Greatest;

Why do you suppose it is that something that never seems happen is so rare? One would think that if telepathy were in the human skill set, even just slightly, that evidence for such things would be a bit more obvious.

Before the experiences you allege, did you have any reason to think that telepathy was real? And if it was real, and you didn't know it, what do you suppose would change your mind on the subject, short of actually experiencing it yourself? And can  you see why a bunch of atheists, for whom skepticism is our bestest tool of all, might not get all hot and bothered about claims such as yours?

Second, you're all big on the cosmic consciousness stuff, or whatever term you used to tell us that you think there is some sort of universal center of consciousness or something. Why should we consider that as possible when we spend most of our time rejecting the many claims we hear here and elsewhere. Every month we get a few new people on the site who claim to have some singular and highly accurate take on religion, whether Jesus is include or not. They too reject standard teachings, standard doctrine, standard beliefs. Like all religious and semi-religious people, they don't agree with each other one whit.

So why should we seriously consider your words when they sound like a slight variation in claims we have heard from others, time and time again. What information do you have that nobody else has that should, once and for all, put mankind on the right track?

And if you have nothing but structured thoughts to show for your beliefs, why are you voicing them and making yourself sound a little daft. Especially when you have more useful and admirable points of view on politics, an area you and I appear to agree on in many ways.

And lastly, the atheist church thing. Yes, people tend to group up. However, said groups are hardly the pinnacle of humanity we all might want them to be. Each one has a propensity to think of itself as more important than the rest. Wanting to add one ore special interest group to life is counter productive.

[Greatest I am]

As I mentioned above, I think it is rare because it hurts and I think we have a blocking system of some kind. Privacy may be the reason for shielding. I don’t know. There are no secrets when two minds join.

I had no fixed opinion on telepathy before my experience. As a skeptic, I was curious about all the various odd unproven claims of all strange phenomena. I did not hold a belief in any of them. Proof is my thing. 

I too have listened to many say they had a contact with God but always fall back on the same old B. S. and to me that means that they are lying or delusional. If God can’t say anything new then he is useless to us.

As to why you should consider my claim seriously. I would be surprised if you did and would likely lose my respect for being gullible. Nothing important should be believed on just hear say unless the speaker is trusted completely.

You are correct in that it would be easier if I just kept my mouth shut about this but then I would be withholding pertinent information and to me that is as good as lying.

I am phobic about lying.

As to an atheist church, I do not see people taking care of the needs of their families as counter-productive.
I see it as our moral duty be we atheists or not.

Religions cater to our groupish or tribal instincts and if atheists do not then they are not doing their social duty in my opinion.

I hold that same view for atheists if they are not actively apologising against believers.

Regards
DL

[ParkingPlaces]

Okay, so I google "telepathy", and I find sites that tell me it is easy to do, sites that tell me that the sender has to be in under incredible duress and the receiver relaxed, sites that say that it is possible to receive the pain of others, but I'm not yet finding anything that says telepathy is, in and of itself, painful.

I won't say it doesn't hurt at all, because reading all that stuff caused me to shake my head in disbelief so much that my neck hurts.

Anyway, is telepathy like religion? With 38,000 denominations?

Correction: Actually I googled "telepathy pain"

[Anfauglir]

As I said in t'other thread.....details please!

As for the "shield"......you are positing something that is apparently undetectable.  That we have apparently evolved it to defend us from something that seems to manifest itself in a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.  I wonder what proportion of the brain's processing power is devoted to maintaining this shield?  I'm guessing a lot, because in 99.9999999% of cases it does a perfect job.  Would the activation (or dropping) of the shield show up on an MRI, would you think?

On the two instances it happened, was that a case of you deliberately trying to break down the other person's shield?  Or did they - voluntarily or accidentally - lower their shield?  Is your claim that shields have to be in constant activation to defend against what would otherwise be a constant assault from all other minds around, or are they automatically raised when an assault is detected?  If so, they must pop up very fast, because if it is as painful as you say I would expect at least a flicker of "ow" before they activate.  Do the shields run when we are asleep?  Unconscious?  Are they affected by mind-altering drugs?

Telepathy itself....what is the range?  Will it work if we are in adjoining rooms?  What if we are 100 miles away?  Are our minds constantly and automatically trying to "invade" all the other minds around us, or does it only work when activated?  You said that it happened with a witness who was not involved in the actual experience - what reason do you think they were unaffected?  Were their shield stronger, or was it that you were not focussing your telepathic attack on them?

Its all more important info for working out how the shield actually works in practice.  Really looking forward to hearing so more detail so we can start to put together a working definition of this shield, and begin to test for it.

[Greatest I am]

Okay, so I google "telepathy", and I find sites that tell me it is easy to do, sites that tell me that the sender has to be in under incredible duress and the receiver relaxed, sites that say that it is possible to receive the pain of others, but I'm not yet finding anything that says telepathy is, in and of itself, painful.

I won't say it doesn't hurt at all, because reading all that stuff caused me to shake my head in disbelief so much that my neck hurts.

Anyway, is telepathy like religion? With 38,000 denominations?

Correction: Actually I googled "telepathy pain"

I can only speak for what I experienced and what I think went on.

I have already stated that from what I read of the telepathic experimentation going on, they are only touching the outer layers of perception. Real and or deep telepathy, according to my experience, causes both pain and pleasure.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

As I said in t'other thread.....details please!

As for the "shield"......you are positing something that is apparently undetectable.  That we have apparently evolved it to defend us from something that seems to manifest itself in a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.  I wonder what proportion of the brain's processing power is devoted to maintaining this shield?  I'm guessing a lot, because in 99.9999999% of cases it does a perfect job.  Would the activation (or dropping) of the shield show up on an MRI, would you think?

On the two instances it happened, was that a case of you deliberately trying to break down the other person's shield?  Or did they - voluntarily or accidentally - lower their shield?  Is your claim that shields have to be in constant activation to defend against what would otherwise be a constant assault from all other minds around, or are they automatically raised when an assault is detected?  If so, they must pop up very fast, because if it is as painful as you say I would expect at least a flicker of "ow" before they activate.  Do the shields run when we are asleep?  Unconscious?  Are they affected by mind-altering drugs?

Telepathy itself....what is the range?  Will it work if we are in adjoining rooms?  What if we are 100 miles away?  Are our minds constantly and automatically trying to "invade" all the other minds around us, or does it only work when activated?  You said that it happened with a witness who was not involved in the actual experience - what reason do you think they were unaffected?  Were their shield stronger, or was it that you were not focussing your telepathic attack on them?

Its all more important info for working out how the shield actually works in practice.  Really looking forward to hearing so more detail so we can start to put together a working definition of this shield, and begin to test for it.

I don't know where to start. Most of your question I can only answer with speculation and not facts as we know facts to be.

Most of what you ask I do not have concrete answers for.

I was only in that state for about 7 second of my whole life and I was under stress or duress so I could not evaluate things as well as if I had a lot of time.

Perhaps if you refine your questions to what I can know for sure and not just speculate on, we might get further.

This one I can do.

"On the two instances it happened, was that a case of you deliberately trying to break down the other person's shield?  Or did they - voluntarily or accidentally - lower their shield?"

Mine was not a deliberate attempt against the shields because I did not know that they existed at that time. I still do not know this as a fact. It is speculation after trying to reason what and how the process works.

Regards
DL

[ParkingPlaces]

Okay, so I google "telepathy", and I find sites that tell me it is easy to do, sites that tell me that the sender has to be in under incredible duress and the receiver relaxed, sites that say that it is possible to receive the pain of others, but I'm not yet finding anything that says telepathy is, in and of itself, painful.

I won't say it doesn't hurt at all, because reading all that stuff caused me to shake my head in disbelief so much that my neck hurts.

Anyway, is telepathy like religion? With 38,000 denominations?

Correction: Actually I googled "telepathy pain"

I can only speak for what I experienced and what I think went on.

I have already stated that from what I read of the telepathic experimentation going on, they are only touching the outer layers of perception. Real and or deep telepathy, according to my experience, causes both pain and pleasure.

Regards
DL

Well, like with religion, if there is no consistency to offer when more than one person is involved, I shall take it all with a grain of salt.

No, that's not true. I shall reject it entirely, as yet another case of human nonsense. If I've not experienced it and nobody using rigorous testing methods can detect it, I'll go ahead and dismiss it completely. If that ever changes, either personally or via science, I'll be happy to change my mind.

My mind isn't closed, but I do have my bullshit filter turned on.

[Greatest I am]

Indeed. We should all have a good amount of doubt to chase away gullibility.

Regards
DL

[Anfauglir]

I don't know where to start.....

How about actually describing in detail the alleged event, rather than continuing to drop cryptic hints?

I have to be honest, thus far you are perfectly mirroring the behaviour of the Christian who tells us he "spoke to god", but whose story eventually boild down to "I prayed, then got a funny feeling".

[jaimehlers]

In his defense, if ESP-like abilities exist, they either use electromagnetism in a way that we haven't been able to pick up on, or else they use something else that we don't have the capability to detect at all.

That aside, for all that I really like the concept of ESP, I don't think it exists in human beings.  I strongly suspect that supposed examples of ESP, if genuine, are simply either blind luck or else the use of ordinary perception that the people involved aren't aware of.

[Greatest I am]

I don't know where to start.....

How about actually describing in detail the alleged event, rather than continuing to drop cryptic hints?

Happy to do so.
Try not to be ignorant though. I lack patience.

The details are short and simple.

I was in our basement den working on a proposal to a charity. My feminine side, as some call it, is rather deep in my character and does not always come out easily to the surface. I was thinking of this and chastising myself and sort of wishing that I had the more emotional side of my wife so that I could put more emotion in the work I was doing and I was suddenly looking at or feeling that emotion in her. I also effected her at the same time and knew it and ran upstairs to find her crying at the sink. She had just been doing the dishes and when I swung around the corner she just asked me what I had done. My response was that I did not know.

That is how I confirmed to myself and to her that telepathy was real.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

In his defense, if ESP-like abilities exist, they either use electromagnetism in a way that we haven't been able to pick up on, or else they use something else that we don't have the capability to detect at all.

That aside, for all that I really like the concept of ESP, I don't think it exists in human beings.  I strongly suspect that supposed examples of ESP, if genuine, are simply either blind luck or else the use of ordinary perception that the people involved aren't aware of.

The way I think it works, again, no proof, is that our brains and minds are like radio transmitters/receivers.

Noetic science believes that thought waves have actual mass just as radio waves do.

We produce actual substance that in this case can enter the receiver of another mind.

How exactly these beams of energy and mass got together to create the multi minded cosmic consciousness I believe exists, I have no idea.

Regards
DL

[Anfauglir]

I don't know where to start.....

How about actually describing in detail the alleged event, rather than continuing to drop cryptic hints?

Happy to do so.
Try not to be ignorant though. I lack patience.

Funnily enough, so do I.  When someone drops cryptic hints about their particular brand of woo for post after post without going into detail, my patience wears very thin.

The details are short and simple.

I was in our basement den working on a proposal to a charity. My feminine side, as some call it, is rather deep in my character and does not always come out easily to the surface. I was thinking of this and chastising myself and sort of wishing that I had the more emotional side of my wife so that I could put more emotion in the work I was doing and I was suddenly looking at or feeling that emotion in her. I also effected her at the same time and knew it and ran upstairs to find her crying at the sink. She had just been doing the dishes and when I swung around the corner she just asked me what I had done. My response was that I did not know.

That is how I confirmed to myself and to her that telepathy was real.

Thank you.  I do not understand what you mean by the bolded sentence - can you provide more detail please?

How did you/do you rule out coincidence? 

[Greatest I am]

I don't know where to start.....

How about actually describing in detail the alleged event, rather than continuing to drop cryptic hints?

Happy to do so.
Try not to be ignorant though. I lack patience.

Funnily enough, so do I.  When someone drops cryptic hints about their particular brand of woo for post after post without going into detail, my patience wears very thin.

The details are short and simple.

I was in our basement den working on a proposal to a charity. My feminine side, as some call it, is rather deep in my character and does not always come out easily to the surface. I was thinking of this and chastising myself and sort of wishing that I had the more emotional side of my wife so that I could put more emotion in the work I was doing and I was suddenly looking at or feeling that emotion in her. I also effected her at the same time and knew it and ran upstairs to find her crying at the sink. She had just been doing the dishes and when I swung around the corner she just asked me what I had done. My response was that I did not know.

That is how I confirmed to myself and to her that telepathy was real.

Thank you.  I do not understand what you mean by the bolded sentence - can you provide more detail please?

How did you/do you rule out coincidence?

I did not rule out coincidence. Even if it was, that does not take away the fact the telepathy is real and I was doing it.

That bolded was poorly written but these issues do not have the usual vocabulary.

Telepathy is a pure mental activity. Ever walk into a place and get a feeling of either comfort or discomfort?

People use the word vibes. The vibes were good. That type of thing. In the case of my wife and I, the vibes or emotions are all I perceived from her. I was only there co-joined mentally for just a second or two before snapping back to normal. The second time with the cosmic consciousness was longer, 6 seconds or so, and there was some communication by word but the only ones I recall were to think more demographically. I am a tough guy but I was crying for that time period just as my wife had done and that is why I did not pick up more.

Regards
DL

 
<<Mod: Fixed quotes>>

[Anfauglir]

Telepathy is a pure mental activity. Ever walk into a place and get a feeling of either comfort or discomfort?   People use the word vibes. The vibes were good. That type of thing.

So places can "do telepathy"?  Sorry, that was glib, but you seem to be discounting the way that location and environment will react on the subconscious in well-documented and tested ways, in favour of telepathy.

In the case of my wife and I, the vibes or emotions are all I perceived from her. I was only there co-joined mentally for just a second or two before snapping back to normal. The second time with the cosmic consciousness was longer, 6 seconds or so, and there was some communication by word but the only ones I recall were to think more demographically. I am a tough guy but I was crying for that time period just as my wife had done and that is why I did not pick up more.

Is it possible to repeat or demonstrate what you claim happened to you?

[Greatest I am]

Telepathy is a pure mental activity. Ever walk into a place and get a feeling of either comfort or discomfort?   People use the word vibes. The vibes were good. That type of thing.

So places can "do telepathy"?  Sorry, that was glib, but you seem to be discounting the way that location and environment will react on the subconscious in well-documented and tested ways, in favour of telepathy.

In the case of my wife and I, the vibes or emotions are all I perceived from her. I was only there co-joined mentally for just a second or two before snapping back to normal. The second time with the cosmic consciousness was longer, 6 seconds or so, and there was some communication by word but the only ones I recall were to think more demographically. I am a tough guy but I was crying for that time period just as my wife had done and that is why I did not pick up more.

Is it possible to repeat or demonstrate what you claim happened to you?

I am nothing special and I would think that given the same type of conditions everyone should be able to do it.

I have not been able to reproduce it because I can no longer draw up the emotional desire for more compassion nor the intensity, I guess, that is required to activate telepathy.

As to proof. The only proof that I know of would be to test both my wife and I on a polygraph but many still would not believe even a positive result. So I would say there is no way to prove telepathy.

Regards
DL

[Anfauglir]

I am nothing special and I would think that given the same type of conditions everyone should be able to do it.

I have not been able to reproduce it because I can no longer draw up the emotional desire for more compassion nor the intensity, I guess, that is required to activate telepathy.

Sorry - in the first sentence you appear to say it IS reproducible - but in the second you say that you have been unable to? 

As to proof. The only proof that I know of would be to test both my wife and I on a polygraph but many still would not believe even a positive result. So I would say there is no way to prove telepathy.

Since polygraphs only measure belief in a statement, I have no doubt at all that you would pass without a problem.  Same as a Christian would be "proved true" when they say there IS a god, and an atheist "proved true" when they say there is not.  So wuite what a polygraph has to do with it I don't know.

Your first sentence said "I would think that given the same type of conditions everyone should be able to do it", implying a pretty simple and commonplace event.  Yet then you say "I would say there is no way to prove telepathy" - I'm not sure which answer you are going with?

If telepathy exists, then given the same conditions that you were in (something fairly commonplace and eminently repeatable) we should expect to see "telepathy" happening on a regular basis, given the 6 billion people on the planet.  I'm unclear as to why you feel there is no way to prove that telepathy exists?

[Mrjason]

<sinp>. So I would say there is no way to prove telepathy.

Regards
DL

Zener cards?

[Greatest I am]

Anfauglir

“Sorry - in the first sentence you appear to say it IS reproducible - but in the second you say that you have been unable to?”

I have been unable to to date but that does not mean it will never happen again if the conditions get duplicated again. I imagine it is the same situation for all of us. We can all do it as far as I know.

You are correct that the polygraph shows what we believe and not necessarily the truth.

If a test were ever given to my wife and I, those who see two people believing that the same telepathic experience happened to them, would have to decide for themselves if they want to believe the positive test or not.

As to my experience with the Godhead, no verification is available so there is no way to prove that one. 


“(something fairly commonplace and eminently repeatable)”

You say I imply this but I said that it is fairly rare as you confirmed.

Regards
DL

[ParkingPlaces]

Greatest

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that telepathy is absolutely real. Rare, but real. And painful.

What good is that information? When it comes to forming an overall world view? If telepathy plays only the tiniest part of our day to day lives, if that much, cannot we simply say that it appears that sometimes human minds can connect, but that doesn't matter because it doesn't accomplish diddly? Cannot you say, at this point in human learning, where most consider telepathy to be imagined, that it doesn't really matter because it is of no use anyway, and simply accept that if it is real, people will eventually find out. And still not use it.

That you were shocked by the events you describe could be mildly interesting at this point in human development. That, to you, the best explanation, that of telepathy, is now less of a mystery doesn't mean that it is also of an ultimate importance. At best, it is like discovering a DeWalt battery powered drill in a cave, 25,000 years ago. The lack of screws would have meant it was of no value. Plus recharging would be a bitch.

It sounds like you're too impressed by something that is of otherwise little use. Maybe 500 years from now telepathy will have been proven. Right now it isn't, and most of us doubt that it exists. So even if it is real, by your own admission it appears to be too rare and painful to use anyway, maybe you should just shrug your shoulders after saying "wow" and concentrate you energies on more well grounded endeavors.

[Greatest I am]

<sinp>. So I would say there is no way to prove telepathy.

Regards
DL

Zener cards?

Research have been using those for years with statistically significant results but the type of telepathy they postulate is not what my wife and I experienced.

To be equivalent, every hit on a card would drop the test subject to their knees. So to speak.
I don't know if a mind could take the intensity of emotion or not.

I did a quick search for some statistical results and did find much on twins but nothing peer reviewed.

Regards
DL