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Offline screwtape

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Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« on: September 05, 2013, 12:25:26 PM »
I have not heard anything about this prior, but I know PZ Myers has been doing a lot of posting over the last year or two about the apparently rampant chauvanism and mysogyny in the atheist movement.  Now, Skepchick has this :

Quote
Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

WTF, Dawk?

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 12:33:27 PM »
BM
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 12:40:55 PM »
I have not heard anything about this prior, but I know PZ Myers has been doing a lot of posting over the last year or two about the apparently rampant chauvanism and mysogyny in the atheist movement.  Now, Skepchick has this :

Quote
Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don’t tell me yet again, I know you aren’t allowed to drive a car, and you can’t leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you’ll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep”chick”, and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn’t lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

WTF, Dawk?

Sounds like a reasonable mocking of an unreasonable skwalking. The incident sounds like a overly sensitive feminist freaked out because they got hit on by a person they didn't want to be hit on by.

RD is perfectly correct to mock this.

Unless the man touched her(more than just a tap on the shoulder) that's a different story. But an unwanted verbal advance? Grow the fuck up. I've had unwanted verbal advances by both sexes and I'm straight; it isn't an assault. Occasionally slimey, sure. I didn't appreciate the offer of money. But BFD!

Furthermore, the mocking had an extra point. An occasional unwanted advance is a hell of a better alternative to a sex and gender straightjacketed society. It is a very minor cost of freedom.

Also most unintentionally hillarous name for the article. She is operating under the privlege delusion.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:04:42 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Online Dante

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 12:47:03 PM »
http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/

For some reason, that page wont load on my PC.

So alas, I remain confused. Why the Dawkins hate, screwtape?

edit to add:

So, after a probably too brief internet search and read[1], the synopsis is that Watson was insulted because a man had the audacity to ask her to have a conversation with him over some coffee in his hotel room?

Was her problem that it was:

An enclosed elevator?

His hotel room?

He asked her?

I don't get it, so I'd have to agree with Hatter at this point. She should get over herself.
 1. I ain't got all fraggin' day, ya know!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:02:58 PM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nam

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 01:19:57 PM »
Do we know he wrote it? And even if he did it sounds overly sarcastic and in-your-face. Though I wouldn't be as insensitive to a person who went through such abuse, it does depend on two things:

1. Did he actually write it? and if so
2. What's the context?

-Nam
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 01:28:34 PM »
^^^ I hear those questions a lot about another quite famous document around here.  ;)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 01:30:25 PM »
Do we know he wrote it? And even if he did it sounds overly sarcastic and in-your-face. Though I wouldn't be as insensitive to a person who went through such abuse, it does depend on two things:

1. Did he actually write it? and if so
2. What's the context?

-Nam

It was in response to "elevatorgate" which PZ Meyers and Matt Dilahunty apparently weren't rational enough and  were pulled into Skepchick's imagined victimhood for being invited up to a man's room for coffee during an atheist convention in the summer of 2011.










An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 02:14:41 PM »
Was her problem that it was:

her problem is the persistent and relentless harrassment.  In her words:
Quote
And then, for the past few years as the audience for Skepchick and SGU grew, I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

This is the kind of thing she apparently has to put up with:(NSFW)
http://wy3mg1xgify37n21x223cw7xl1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-shot-2011-07-05-at-3.54.00-PM.png

So after a few years of this, someone propositioned her.  What was her reaction?
Quote
I said, “Guys, don’t do that.” Really, that’s what I said. I didn’t call for an end to sex. I didn’t accuse the man in my story of rape. I didn’t say all men are monsters. I said, “Guys, don’t do that.”

I do not see victimhood, imagined or real.  I do not see how this is deserving of mockery and derision.  I really don't. 

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Online Dante

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 03:02:10 PM »
Was her problem that it was:

her problem is the persistent and relentless harrassment.  In her words:
Quote
And then, for the past few years as the audience for Skepchick and SGU grew, I’ve had more and more messages from men who tell me what they’d like to do to me, sexually. More and more men touching me without permission at conferences. More and more threats of rape from those who don’t agree with me, even from those who consider themselves skeptics and atheists. More and more people telling me to shut up and go back to talking about Bigfoot and other topics that really matter.

Then, I can wholly imagine her preception being skewed. Thanks for the backstory, I was unaware. It's immature, to be sure, but methinks that's some of the baggage that unfortunately comes with fame. And she seems to have sought out that fame, regardless if it was within the "rational" community or not. It doesn't mean I condone it. Rather it means she should have seen it coming.

Quote
So after a few years of this, someone propositioned her.  What was her reaction?
Quote
I said, “Guys, don’t do that.” Really, that’s what I said. I didn’t call for an end to sex. I didn’t accuse the man in my story of rape. I didn’t say all men are monsters. I said, “Guys, don’t do that.”

I do not see victimhood, imagined or real.  I do not see how this is deserving of mockery and derision.  I really don't.

"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that. Because sorry, but that's not the way the world works. Men are going to proposition women, and women are going to propostion men.
 
I've read a little more since the posting this morning, and it's enabled me to sympathize minimally, but it still seems a mountain was made from the proverbial molehill. Was it just online media reaction that fueled the entire fiasco? Would RD have made the statement had it not become a circus?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 03:03:33 PM »
What makes it worse is Dawkins was there at the conference and heard her speak on the topic of sexualization and harassment the evening this happened to her.  In the very same video she mentioned how exited she was to be in proximity to him. 

I can totally relate to her statements and issues.  I am not unattractive.  I have found myself in situations where a male acted like he wanted to be my friend when he really just wanted to get in my pants.  A lot.  To the point where unfortunately I am suspicious when any man is friendly toward me.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 03:12:51 PM »

"Guys, don't proposition me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that.

Yes, there is more to it than that.  Did you watch the video?  Did you read her statement?  She is saying, "Guys, when it is 4:00 am in a foreign country in a hotel and a women just spoke at length about sexual harassment and being objectified and how she has received rape threats and you have never met her before please don't follow her on to an elevator and ask her back to your room for coffee."

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:15:00 PM by LoriPinkAngel »
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online Dante

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 03:16:39 PM »


Yes, there is more to it than that.  Did you watch the video?  Did you read her statement? 

For some reason, that page wont load on my PC.

IS THAT FUCKING CLEAR ENOUGH?


So, nope. Thanks for asking tho!



Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 03:31:07 PM »


Yes, there is more to it than that.  Did you watch the video?  Did you read her statement? 

For some reason, that page wont load on my PC.

IS THAT FUCKING CLEAR ENOUGH?


So, nope. Thanks for asking tho!

So, you decided to judge her without reading her story, nice.  If I were a douchebag I would smite you for that.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 03:36:37 PM »

So, you decided to judge her without reading her story, nice.  If I were a douchebag I would smite you for that.

"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that. Because sorry, but that's not the way the world works. Men are going to proposition women, and women are going to propostion men.
 

I'm not seeing the judgement of which you speak. Show me.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nam

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2013, 03:57:36 PM »
So....how's it going?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2013, 04:00:51 PM »


It's immature, to be sure,

Quote
she should have seen it coming.



Quote
"Guys, don't propostion me, under any circumstances." Is that really all she's saying? There must be more to it than that. Because sorry, but that's not the way the world works. Men are going to proposition women, and women are going to propostion men.

Quote
but it still seems a mountain was made from the proverbial molehill.

Maybe I perceive these comment as judgey when that was not your intention.  Maybe some of us women get a little irritated over this topic.  I have been on the receiving end of the coffee guy too many times to count.  Some times the intention is to have coffee.  A lot of times they aren't.  And we are wrong if we don't want to have to deduce that at 4 in the morning.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2013, 04:01:32 PM »
I am not unattractive.  I have found myself in situations where a male acted like he wanted to be my friend when he really just wanted to get in my pants. 

Or possibly your heart as well? By that I mean, most relationships start off with a physical attraction, and progress from there. So yeah, starting off trying to befriend an attractive woman seems like the natural, and not unseemly, thing to do. Of course, there are the d-bags out there just looking for another notch on the bedpost, and care nothing for the feelings or self-worth of their one nighter. That's why a friendly relationship should be established before the horizontal shuffle begins. If you're into that sort of thing anyway.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Online Dante

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 04:04:36 PM »



It's immature, to be sure,

That was referring to the d-bags hounding her online. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Quote
Quote
she should have seen it coming.

Not judging, just stating a fact of fame.

Maybe I perceive these comment as judgey when that was not your intention.  Maybe some of us women get a little irritated over this topic.  I have been on the receiving end of the coffee guy too many times to count.  Some times the intentions  to have coffee.  A lot of times they aren't.

See my comment about relationships a few posts above. You're right, sometimes, they aren't.

Quote
  And we are wrong if we don't want to have to deduce that at 4 in the morning.

Deducing it at 4 in the morning is one thing, and that's all the backstory I had to work with. Deducing it after her symposium, which all I have is your account and I'm taking your word, is quite another. Yeah, it was a d-bag move on his part.

But she is kinda hot.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 04:08:08 PM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 04:08:32 PM »
That's why a friendly relationship should be established before the horizontal shuffle begins. If you're into that sort of thing anyway.

And when oh, so friendly men disappear or grow cold  when you don't want to get horizontal within hours/days of meeting them you're considered just not in to that sort of thing...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 04:14:04 PM »
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nam

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 04:17:21 PM »
That's why a friendly relationship should be established before the horizontal shuffle begins. If you're into that sort of thing anyway.

And when oh, so friendly men disappear or grow cold  when you don't want to get horizontal within hours/days of meeting them you're considered just not in to that sort of thing...

If it makes you feel better about me, I'm a giver. And though, being a guy, I usually want to get into a girls pants on the first date, I actually wait a couple of weeks before I do. Unless it's a friend with  benefits, that's what they are there for (and for them, what I'm there for) but I would never use rape or sexual abuse as a tool, even if she wanted me too (and a couple in the past have), not my thing. I'm a lover, not a fucker.

:)

-Nam
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The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nam

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 04:25:08 PM »
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.



Peeping Tom or just staring? Because if the latter: what medieval high school you go to? You should've went to my high school. People (gay/lesbian/straight) had sex in our bathrooms and when the school removed the doors to the bathrooms to stop them,bit didn't in any way, shape, or form. I once saw two girls, naked eating each other out. It was my first time seeing it in person. I was 15. It was beautiful.

Of course more than 6,000 kids went to my high school, there's really no controlling that. I mean my JROTC class had a car wash on campus to raise money for something, and all the girls wore white shirts and no bras. That was also a beautiful day. I was 16 at that time.

There were many, many more beautiful days but too much to type here.

I loved my school.

-Nam
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The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Nam

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 04:41:33 PM »
One Above All,

Your smite is unwarranted.

1. I never said, or implied, any or all guys are like me when it comes to sex. I was telling her that's the way I am. That's it. I was implying that pigs like you and others here weren't all like you. That when it comes to sex, and love, and all that guys like me exist.

2. Stop being a douche. And that goes for the crest here who thinks it's okay to say nasty shit to attractive women just on the basis they are attractive.

3. You should smite yourself or the other idiots here who feel that a girl must enjoy being degraded because she may act a certain way, or wear clothes that may or may not be what some think is inappropriate in their minds (like back of pants that say a phrase of some kind etc.,) just because they may be inviting doesn't mean the invitation is for you.

4. Stop being a douche.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline One Above All

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 04:52:51 PM »
One Above All,

Nam,

Your smite is unwarranted.

I don't think it is. That's why I did it.

1. I never said, or implied, any or all guys are like me when it comes to sex. I was telling her that's the way I am. That's it.

Really? Let's take a look at your post...
And though, being a guy, I usually want to get into a girls pants on the first date, I actually wait a couple of weeks before I do.
Bold mine.
You see, to me, that implied (I'd go so far as to say "inferred") that all (or, at the very least, most) guys are like you. We're not.

<snip>

This is just pointless speculation and accusations based on nothing at all. I do not treat women or men I'm attracted to (psychologically and/or physically) poorly. I also see sex in a different light than you do.

Anyway, I won't reply to you anymore in this thread, so as not to derail it any further.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 05:07:00 PM »
Guys think of sex all the time. That's true whether you wish to admit it or not. It's also true many of them have no real restraint, and that's what I'm referring. My comment wasn't to be taken literal since, though true about myself, it was a jest of reassurance that though many guys (or most for that matter) are takers rather than givers.

If you couldn't read the slight jest in my post, that's your problem not mine.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2013, 05:17:19 PM »

Really? Let's take a look at your post...
And though, being a guy, I usually want to get into a girls pants on the first date, I actually wait a couple of weeks before I do.
Bold mine.


The being a guy thing went right over my head.  I didn't read it as anything other than being Nam and found no offense when reading the whole post.  I guess each of us gets our buttons pushed differently.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2013, 06:13:14 PM »
Does anyone else here find it ironic that Dante has a tendency to smite women in this forum for naming sexism or discussing sexual assaults?  And that he did so again in this thread?

Nope.  No sexism in the atheist community.  All members of the atheist community are clearly above that sort of thing, and women who attempt to discuss the topic should be put in our place.   

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2013, 08:13:17 PM »
I suppose I am touchy on the subject after getting in trouble for looking at women in high school....because I was unpopular.

Said women were doing thing that were primping for attention, I looked. I was deemed unacceptable and therefore reported to school authorities. If the men they wanted to look at them, no such action would have occured.

School authorities sided with the women. I was in trouble for having the audacity of looking, because the women attracted my eyeballs and not of the popular jock they were going for.



Peeping Tom or just staring? Because if the latter: what medieval high school you go to?

The latter. It was a Catholic School.
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Re: Richard Dawkins is not my hero
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2013, 11:24:38 PM »
Nope.  No sexism in the atheist community.  All members of the atheist community are clearly above that sort of thing, and women who attempt to discuss the topic should be put in our place.   

The often disproportionate reaction to women asserting themselves (in the atheist / skeptic communities and elsewhere) is disheartening and disappointing. Myer and Watson's blogging (and that of others) on that topic have been an education for me on feminism, sexism and reactionary backlash.
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