Author Topic: Is morality proof of god.  (Read 7265 times)

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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2013, 07:56:24 AM »
I should have added a third sentence.

Someone within the single community desires to be controlled even to the point of physical and moral damage to prove that they belong. ( mutual mutilation for example )

So religion is poison both to the insider and to the outsider.

Human morality is at present out of step with large scale communities such as cities. Humans may evolve to become either more peaceful or more violent, or just have to cope with it and become better educated.

Oops. On this I cannot agree.

Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular.

They recognize the more moral system of secular humanism that is basically taking over.

No half way intelligent religionist is foolish enough to want the barbaric laws of their religions.

Note how even the Muslims do not favor Sharea law.

And Christians, well ----------



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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2013, 08:36:20 AM »

Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular.

for example...?

Can you find examples to the contrary?

No half way intelligent religionist is foolish enough to want the barbaric laws of their religions.

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2013, 09:06:54 AM »
Quote

Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular.

for example...?

Egypt as we speak are booting out the brotherhood and the last time Libya was given the vote.

Quote
Can you find examples to the contrary?

Iran is the only country under Sharia law that comes to mind. I think the Saudis are half way or something.

Quote
No half way intelligent religionist is foolish enough to want the barbaric laws of their religions.

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

Think left wing and center and not right wing.

Give credit where credit is due.

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DL

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #119 on: September 25, 2013, 09:32:00 AM »

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

More than a few. Steven Colbert for example. Just because a person is intelligent, does not mean they cannot have a delusion. It just lowers the likelyhood.

Cognitive dissonance is common in the regard.

Now Intelligent and Creationist?.....now we are talking a much much rarer breed. Well versed in the hard sciences.......
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2013, 09:34:29 AM »
Egypt as we speak are booting out the brotherhood...

Nope.  Egypt voted in the MB.  The military booted them out, illegally.

Quote
Can you find examples to the contrary?

Iran is the only country under Sharia law that comes to mind. I think the Saudis are half way or something.

the question I was asking was not secular vs sharia.  It was secular vs religious.  Your statement to which I was responding was "Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular."  Bold mine. There is a lot of ground covered between Sharia and "any kind of religious law". 

Ireland's extremist laws against abortion are religiously grounded as they are in many Central American countries.  I believe Ireland is also considering anti-blasphemy laws, which are also religious.  Turkey is moving away from a strictly secular government and has voted in an islamist government.

Don't get me wrong.  I'd be thrilled if people really were becoming less religious and voting more secular.  I just don't see it.


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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2013, 09:40:57 AM »

Good luck finding a half way intelligent religionist.

More than a few. Steven Colbert for example. Just because a person is intelligent, does not mean they cannot have a delusion. It just lowers the likelyhood.

Cognitive dissonance is common in the regard.

Now Intelligent and Creationist?.....now we are talking a much much rarer breed. Well versed in the hard sciences.......


Yes and no.



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DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #122 on: September 25, 2013, 09:47:14 AM »
Egypt as we speak are booting out the brotherhood...

Nope.  Egypt voted in the MB.  The military booted them out, illegally.

Quote
Can you find examples to the contrary?

Iran is the only country under Sharia law that comes to mind. I think the Saudis are half way or something.

the question I was asking was not secular vs sharia.  It was secular vs religious.  Your statement to which I was responding was "Note how most countries are rejecting any kind of religious law and are voting secular."  Bold mine. There is a lot of ground covered between Sharia and "any kind of religious law". 

Ireland's extremist laws against abortion are religiously grounded as they are in many Central American countries.  I believe Ireland is also considering anti-blasphemy laws, which are also religious.  Turkey is moving away from a strictly secular government and has voted in an islamist government.

Don't get me wrong.  I'd be thrilled if people really were becoming less religious and voting more secular.  I just don't see it.

There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.

Many Muslim countries have a few actual Sharea laws in place but not their mora draconian ones. All they have is a washed out version.

We live in a secular world that is moving further into secularism.

Regards
DL

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2013, 12:41:51 PM »
Examples of what I meant by religion also damaging the insider physically or mentally is circumcision, Christians whipping themselves for sins, wearing lice filled sackcloth under their clothes, not to mention dormitory activities. I was not suggesting anything like demonisation of the outsider.

Quantative Research just published shows that complex societies were formed through intense warfare as the primary determining cause with high correlation. Previous quantative studies show environmental use was important too. We know from earlier sites such as gobekli tepe that the large scale social bond was already religious so it looks as though religious demonisation of the outsider was an important part of the mental outlook in the creation of complex societies. So When your Christian friend says that religion was important in creating society, he was probably right. The irony of it.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2013, 12:52:02 PM »
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.
Uganda.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #125 on: September 25, 2013, 01:16:00 PM »
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.

Here's a link that unfortunately shows the stoning and witch-burning advocates are far from gone:http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/12/uganda-passes-kill-the-gays-bill/
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #126 on: September 25, 2013, 01:33:35 PM »
More than a few. Steven Colbert for example.

Hey!  You got lucky!

I know there's smart religious people, but they are less common than stupid ones.  Because stupid people are just a lot more common than smart ones.  And a significant portion of smart ones are atheists.  So if you select a given religious person, odds are, that person is also stupid.  So, I stand by my snarky comment.
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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2013, 01:59:08 PM »
Atheists are just as stupid as religious people. Atheists will continuously argue with a person who they know are a wall.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #128 on: September 25, 2013, 02:39:29 PM »
I am interested this subject but I have not been able to find much. A separate discussion might be useful.

What i would like to know is how " well qualified intelligent people" can turn off their brains. Does anyone have experience of this? I once saw a physicist pick up a feather and say it was proof of design, he started talking like child.

I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #129 on: September 25, 2013, 03:19:18 PM »
I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.

Check out this site. http://iloveatheists.com/
 They claim several "former atheists" or skeptical non believers.   Without trying to play too many no true atheist cards, I would say most former atheists who turn to religion were not atheists in a sense that they chose that stance  through any intellectual rigor... just a term they used by default.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #130 on: September 25, 2013, 04:09:52 PM »
I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.

Check out this site. http://iloveatheists.com/
 They claim several "former atheists" or skeptical non believers.   Without trying to play too many no true atheist cards, I would say most former atheists who turn to religion were not atheists in a sense that they chose that stance  through any intellectual rigor... just a term they used by default.

Yeah, any stance you arrive at by illogical means, you can be swayed away from by illogical means. Every time I hear about a "former atheist" that turned back to gnostic theism (not just Deism) their supposed reason for being an atheist involves the death of a loved one or an illness....or they define atheism as living the sex and drugs lifestyle.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2013, 04:35:36 PM »
Examples of what I meant by religion also damaging the insider physically or mentally is circumcision, Christians whipping themselves for sins, wearing lice filled sackcloth under their clothes, not to mention dormitory activities. I was not suggesting anything like demonisation of the outsider.

Quantative Research just published shows that complex societies were formed through intense warfare as the primary determining cause with high correlation. Previous quantative studies show environmental use was important too. We know from earlier sites such as gobekli tepe that the large scale social bond was already religious so it looks as though religious demonisation of the outsider was an important part of the mental outlook in the creation of complex societies. So When your Christian friend says that religion was important in creating society, he was probably right. The irony of it.

The scholar shown in this link would agree. Her study of the Eden myth leads to the same conclusion but in the real world. Not the fantasy bible world. She comes to some good conclusion including the importance of the Temple and why the Temple Prostitute was so honored and why we call money bread.

This is the main part I want to show but her complete series is an eye opener.



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DL

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #132 on: September 25, 2013, 05:16:15 PM »
Gia I have seen the whole series.

Neopagan that website looks a bit suspicious. Either they were all idiots who never understood science or it is a fake. Neither scenario is a good ad for their claims.

Hatter, it is very strange that anyone would think of atheism as a drug lifestyle. Anyone who values life as much as an atheist, would not want to throw it away on drugs.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 05:17:51 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #133 on: September 25, 2013, 05:27:36 PM »
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.
Uganda.

With help from U. S. Christians.

 

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DL

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2013, 05:28:41 PM »

Hatter, it is very strange that anyone would think of atheism as a drug lifestyle. Anyone who values life as much as an atheist, would not want to throw it away on drugs.

Not reasonable at a logical, but easy to figure out as far as from an uneducated emotional viewpoint

Drugs equals hedonism and rebellion

Church equals  societal conformity and self denial

therefore

Drugs equal anti-church

Anti-church equal atheism

It is soft fuzzy sloppy level of reasoning...but I can see the chain of thought

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2013, 05:30:28 PM »
There are exception in various laws. No statement today can be all inclusive on such but nowhere do you se people advocating to stone fornicators or unruly children and only the most backwards Muslim communities are stoning gays.

Here's a link that unfortunately shows the stoning and witch-burning advocates are far from gone:http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/11/12/uganda-passes-kill-the-gays-bill/

I hear you and I have used such links in the past. Please see the link above that shows a U S connection to the killing of gays.

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DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2013, 05:34:53 PM »
Atheists are just as stupid as religious people. Atheists will continuously argue with a person who they know are a wall.

;)

-Nam

I cannot gage intelligence between atheists and believers but I can say beyond any doubt that in terms of morality, atheists rule because Christians must develop a double set of standards to be able to stomach their genocidal son murdering God.

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DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2013, 05:40:59 PM »
I am interested this subject but I have not been able to find much. A separate discussion might be useful.

What i would like to know is how " well qualified intelligent people" can turn off their brains. Does anyone have experience of this? I once saw a physicist pick up a feather and say it was proof of design, he started talking like child.

I am also interested the kind of people who turn from atheism to religion and I would like to find some examples of how much they knew before they changed their minds.

That would be me.

I knew quite a bit I think and used to do a fair bit of arguing against believers.

Now I am what my atheist friends see as morally on their side and spirituaaly in the believers camp even though I do not quite believe as they do in terms of fantasy, miracles and magic. Those are all garbage to me.

Lend me your ear for my little story dear.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

Offline MM747

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #138 on: October 29, 2013, 08:40:08 AM »
Earlier today I was listening to this point made by Bertrand Russell and as simple as the point is, I'm having a hard time squaring this idea. Is the idea simply that god has no reference for morality unless it was provided by someone else, which leads us down that familiar path. Or unless she commands it. So do I understand this correctly then, to mean therefore that her sense of morality is just as subjective as it is for you I. In which case, how could something subjective be proof of god?

"The point I am concerned with is that, if you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, then you are in this situation: Is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for God himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that God is good."

Bertrand Russell
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #139 on: October 29, 2013, 09:41:51 AM »
Hi MM - welcome aboard!

I think you've understood Russel's point - that morality is either decided upon by god (in which case it is subjective), or god is following the rules of a morality that exists outside of god (in which case god becomes irrelevant for morality).

I'm not sure I understand your question though - "how could something subjective be proof of god?"  I think the point is just that: it can't be.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline MM747

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #140 on: October 29, 2013, 05:39:53 PM »
...

I'm not sure I understand your question though - "how could something subjective be proof of god?"  I think the point is just that: it can't be.

Hey Anfauglir, thanks for that.

I think the question arose more from my understanding that these two things could not in effect be one in the same. So, when you answered that they can't be, that was the same conclusion I was drawing. But I still felt like I was missing something. The entire premiss seemed almost to simple and straight forward to end on that.

I feel I hear this point being raised so often from Christian apologists that they must genuinely perceive that it is the be-all end-all in the argument for morality. And yet when I read through Russell's quote, it's as though with a flick of the wrist he is able to show how weak and illogical their argument actually is.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.
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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #141 on: October 29, 2013, 05:43:41 PM »
She? She? It's a woman? Is she hot?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline MM747

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #142 on: October 29, 2013, 11:18:16 PM »
I don't know...I've always just pictured a woman when I thought of parthenogenesis...of course god didn't 'give birth' to A & E in the literal sense so perhaps not. Or did she. As for 'the being created in his vs her image argument'...my in-laws get this wrong all the time so I've just learned to let it slide. But then again their English isn't as good as gods is.

Hot? Hard to say, I suppose its as subjective as morality. I'm thinking not quite morbidly obese but close enough to be considered beautiful in Mauritania.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #143 on: October 29, 2013, 11:39:52 PM »

This is the main part I want to show but her complete series is an eye opener.


We will study Ezekiel 28, for perplexing information on Eden.
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2013, 02:28:47 PM »
Good luck with that.

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DL