Author Topic: Is morality proof of god.  (Read 5054 times)

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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2013, 11:46:41 AM »
If I could time travel, I think I would head for Eden just after A & E ate and I would make sure that God did not murder A & E by neglect and locking away the tree of life.

If I am to fight evil, I may as well kill the most evil force that can exist.

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DL

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2013, 12:13:22 PM »
Quote from: Greatest I am
Merci man ami.
Etes-vous sûr que vous êtes français. Je pourrais comprendre l'erreur si le "A" était à côté du "O" sur le clavier. Mais!  Are you sure you're French. I could understand the mistake if the "A" was next to the "O" on the keyboard.  But!

Je peux fair plusieur erreur avec trois langage. Francais, Englais et Franglais.

A prochaine chicane.

Regards
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convenu et comprendre
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2013, 12:14:44 PM »
Somebody said on one of the posts here "Give me an iPod, a flame thrower and a time machine, and you'll worship me like a god!" Did make me laugh, and with a very large element of truth! +1 Karma for that, whoever you are!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2013, 12:24:39 PM »
Actual travel back in time would be fraught with problems. Health issues, for instance. If old European cultures were as dirty as history says, it would be harder than hell to avoid infections and the common diseases of the time. Especially if the time traveler lacked native resistance to the diseases. I assume smallpox vaccinations would help, but I'm guessing there were a lot of problems that we, as relatively clean members of society, couldn't imagine.

Too bad your smallpox vaccination scar would be seen as the mark of the devil and you'd be burned at the stake.

Don't be silly, they reserved the mark of the beast for women generally :)

You would need to make a real political mistake for them to search a dude.



Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2013, 01:07:21 PM »

Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

probably a few African shithole countries now you could pull that off in, if you have a desire to be a despot.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2013, 02:50:13 PM »

Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

probably a few African shithole countries now you could pull that off in, if you have a desire to be a despot.
You don't need guns,the skills of a good street magician would be enough to convince the goat-herders you are magic.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2013, 03:26:08 PM »
I did not say Christianity.....I said religious dogma

Give up. Idiots only see the hand punching them in the face.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2013, 12:22:39 AM »

Personally I think I would go back in time with a butt load of guns and ammo and become king of the world.  I think 200 or 300 man army with AK-7 class weapons could rule a major part of the world.

probably a few African shithole countries now you could pull that off in, if you have a desire to be a despot.
You don't need guns,the skills of a good street magician would be enough to convince the goat-herders you are magic.

I would not want to be a despot,   I would try for elevating man to his potential, a benevolent dictatorship would be my goal.  I might choose to be their diety just for convenience sake,  not for the power or prestige

Online bertatberts

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2013, 03:29:22 AM »
I'd go back to the drawing board if I were you, you don't seems to understand what a despot nor a dictatorship is. 
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Online Mrjason

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2013, 04:27:49 AM »
If I could I'd go back in time with an apachie gunship then hail the goat herders over the loadspeaker and say something along the lines of

" Hey, its me, god. Look, this isn't really working. Its not you it's me. I'm gonna go away now and you're gonna have to figure out how to be on your own, you're strong so I know you can do it. You need to get on with your lives like I never existed. Oh and don't try to get in contact with me again or I'll execute every last mother f*cking one of you..."

Job done.

Offline Nam

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2013, 04:28:59 PM »
^you'd have to say it in their exact language, not in English, or they won't understand you.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline epidemic

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2013, 03:00:43 PM »
But... all those dictators were real.  We have some proof of what they did. 

I have no high horse, but I do draw the line at imaginary things (gods) and made up places (like hell).  Besides, if this god character turns out to be real, he/she/it/they probably would not be impressed by my faking belief in him/her/it/them on some variant of Pascal's wager.

Besides, why be afraid of god (YHWH) and not zeus, mithras, etc.?  They could all be as nasty to you as biblegod for not knuckling under to them, if you go that route.  It ends up getting confusing...

in my above post I stated that i did meet god and I am aware of his power.  After being made fully aware of said god whether he be zeus or king kong I think most people would knuckle under to him.  there would also not be a fake belief because I just stated that he revealed himself.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2013, 10:46:10 PM »

let me put it to you this way,  if you were to take a blank slate,  a person who is somehow raised with no reference to religion either in the affirmative or the negative.   Do you believe they would have faith in a god anything akin to yours?  I usually use the babies on an island analogy.  If you placed babies on an island and somehow they survived to adulthood and became a thriving community,  what religion would they be?

My theory is they would invent a rain god, and a lightning god, a god of war, and a place we go after death slowly over the millenia they would refine those gods.  I am not saying you would not have faith with out the bible,  I am saying you would absolutely have a diffent faith absent the bible. 

the bible is ingrained in our culture,  it is part of your religion whether you like it or not.

Your previous examples of "untouched" African tribes is also part of your unfinished argument. I would call it a straw man, but you just haven't thought it through.

The primary reasons all cultures invent religion, is a list
- to give explanations to frightening and awesome things
- for weather, crop and fertility control
- to empower one class, who rules over the others
- to explain injustice
- to quell the fear of death

We have ample examples that religion stays primitive and animistic, when people live in bark huts. But, when civilization become agrarian, there seems to be a need for a power class, and sacrifice to the gods. The Jewish religion is the best example of how religion can be used to keep people in control, because they actually went through a phase when God gave out specific "laws". They might have been able to do this, die to high literacy rates, whereas other cultures may have just had Kings making arbitrary stuff up, to control the kingdom.

The problem next, for the evolution of civilization, is: how do you get out from beneath kings? It's never an easy task, because kings are necessary, to fight other civilizations off, and they tend to have near absolute power, as well as all the wealth.

This is when the peasant philosopher arrives. The peasant philosopher has to sculpt rules to disempower kings. We have Buddha, who supposedly gave all his wealth away, and we have Jesus, telling the ruler to give all his wealth away. They both make a statement that kings and worldly power mean nothing.

You can't overthrow kings using force, because it just creates another king. You have to use subversive brainwashing instead. The problem is: how do you actually entice people to give up wealth and power, so that the civil servant and upper class becomes less corrupt? This is where the afterlife comes in. You only get to the afterlife (or liberate to Nirvana), if you become pure, and give up all your wealth.

The things that naturally help this subversive idea along, are:
- rich people don't appear to be all that happy
- those who indulge in excessive gluttony tend to pay for it in heart disease and VD
- dishonest people are generally hated
- people are generally jealous of rich and successful people, and delight in bringing them down
- those who develop extensive social groups, and help people, tend to get plenty of emotional pay-off, as well as opportunities
- your wealth is no good to you after you die

This all creates adequate basis for the peasant philosopher to work the polemic part of his bullshit. I believe that the Sermon on The Mount, is actually the mustard seed, that gets under people's radar. Nobody actually does any of it, but the mustard seed is like a virus, that everyone tips their hat to, as they invade other countries, and molest small boys. The general principles of it seem to be true, so maybe the polemic is true: that we should give all our wealth to our enemies.

If civilization can evolve past this struggle with kings and wealth; into the Star Trek era, then perhaps we will see new moral parts of religion.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline essgeeskee

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2013, 02:39:27 AM »
According to Christians, just by being born, EVERYONE is a sinner.

In my opinion, morality is like a light switch you can turn on and off. Too bad there's no switch for our so called "sin gene" that Christians swear we all have.

So basically, I guess bible-god brought everyone into the world as "i/moral sinners".

I guess my point it, why bother trying to posses morality when your god will always see you as a sinner?

I think it's better to be good for goodness sake.
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Offline dzzer

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2013, 03:32:05 AM »
If morality is variable, unmeasurable and relative it is also undefinable save in a specific moment, by specific people in specific circumstances.  It is a moveable object that everyone and yet no-one has the right to move.  To my mind morality cannot be discussed in any meaningful fashion without first establishing the authority, truth or foundation upon which it is to be built.  I can think of lots of ways to establish such foundations but in examining these I find non-theists get enraged find none of the options desirable or even palatable.   Boiling it down to simple options it seems to me that morality can be built on 1) the view of the majority 2) the elect (self elected or voted) 3) ration and reason 4) external element (God, God's or simply "the force").   Non-theists I have discussed this with strive to embrace 1),  2) or 3) but in the end concede these options are abhorrent and not acceptable since at their heart there is simply no right or wrong, good or evil.  This leaves a massive vacuum somehow and for some reason the majority of us cannot live with because it doesn't explain the world we live in and specifically the heinous acts we have witnessed.  I'm more than happy to consider the other options if they could be presented to hold water but the reality of rational thought in my mind leaves only option 4). 

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2013, 06:12:17 AM »
Boiling it down to simple options it seems to me that morality can be built on 1) the view of the majority 2) the elect (self elected or voted) 3) ration and reason 4) external element (God, God's or simply "the force").   Non-theists I have discussed this with strive to embrace 1),  2) or 3) but in the end concede these options are abhorrent and not acceptable since at their heart there is simply no right or wrong, good or evil.  This leaves a massive vacuum somehow and for some reason the majority of us cannot live with because it doesn't explain the world we live in and specifically the heinous acts we have witnessed.  I'm more than happy to consider the other options if they could be presented to hold water but the reality of rational thought in my mind leaves only option 4).

I'd be happy to accept that.....as soon as you can demonstrate how a sentient (4) does not fall within category (2).
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline dzzer

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2013, 06:50:06 AM »
Sentience has at least on this topic of morality has little value.  I attempt to deliberately put aside what I feel or sense in order to rationally approach the question of morality.  In doing so there is no sentient 4).  There is only a logical 4).  Elect or self elect 2) means from human perspective.  It's self evident that option 4) something beyond us in all probability is self elected.  The question  that draws to credibility of the claim to self elect or elect.  I have found any and all argument that any human or even group of humans have any right to decided morality based on their own authority.  A being greater than us, however, we describe greater could make such a logical argument even if we didn't agree with it.   Such a being could rationally claim to have greater knowledge, greater understanding, greater power, etc.  That doesn't mean the being is necessarily better in the same way a parent might know more and yet make a mistake their child wouldn't have.  It just means if you're going to decide who in the family has the most rational argument to make decisions it has to be the greater knowledge parent.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2013, 07:45:03 AM »

let me put it to you this way,  if you were to take a blank slate,  a person who is somehow raised with no reference to religion either in the affirmative or the negative.   Do you believe they would have faith in a god anything akin to yours?  I usually use the babies on an island analogy.  If you placed babies on an island and somehow they survived to adulthood and became a thriving community,  what religion would they be?

My theory is they would invent a rain god, and a lightning god, a god of war, and a place we go after death slowly over the millenia they would refine those gods.  I am not saying you would not have faith with out the bible,  I am saying you would absolutely have a diffent faith absent the bible. 

the bible is ingrained in our culture,  it is part of your religion whether you like it or not.

Your previous examples of "untouched" African tribes is also part of your unfinished argument. I would call it a straw man, but you just haven't thought it through.

The primary reasons all cultures invent religion, is a list
- to give explanations to frightening and awesome things
- for weather, crop and fertility control
- to empower one class, who rules over the others
- to explain injustice
- to quell the fear of death

We have ample examples that religion stays primitive and animistic, when people live in bark huts. But, when civilization become agrarian, there seems to be a need for a power class, and sacrifice to the gods. The Jewish religion is the best example of how religion can be used to keep people in control, because they actually went through a phase when God gave out specific "laws". They might have been able to do this, die to high literacy rates, whereas other cultures may have just had Kings making arbitrary stuff up, to control the kingdom.

The problem next, for the evolution of civilization, is: how do you get out from beneath kings? It's never an easy task, because kings are necessary, to fight other civilizations off, and they tend to have near absolute power, as well as all the wealth.

This is when the peasant philosopher arrives. The peasant philosopher has to sculpt rules to disempower kings. We have Buddha, who supposedly gave all his wealth away, and we have Jesus, telling the ruler to give all his wealth away. They both make a statement that kings and worldly power mean nothing.

You can't overthrow kings using force, because it just creates another king. You have to use subversive brainwashing instead. The problem is: how do you actually entice people to give up wealth and power, so that the civil servant and upper class becomes less corrupt? This is where the afterlife comes in. You only get to the afterlife (or liberate to Nirvana), if you become pure, and give up all your wealth.

The things that naturally help this subversive idea along, are:
- rich people don't appear to be all that happy
- those who indulge in excessive gluttony tend to pay for it in heart disease and VD
- dishonest people are generally hated
- people are generally jealous of rich and successful people, and delight in bringing them down
- those who develop extensive social groups, and help people, tend to get plenty of emotional pay-off, as well as opportunities
- your wealth is no good to you after you die

This all creates adequate basis for the peasant philosopher to work the polemic part of his bullshit. I believe that the Sermon on The Mount, is actually the mustard seed, that gets under people's radar. Nobody actually does any of it, but the mustard seed is like a virus, that everyone tips their hat to, as they invade other countries, and molest small boys. The general principles of it seem to be true, so maybe the polemic is true: that we should give all our wealth to our enemies.

If civilization can evolve past this struggle with kings and wealth; into the Star Trek era, then perhaps we will see new moral parts of religion.

I would say neither a strawman nor was my argument unfinished.  I chose not to go into detail, I agree with much if not all you said beyond that.  My objective was to simply say that in a natural untouched population, there is a solid chance that a religion would form and evolve.  That said religion would bear little similarity to your current religion. 

The Ala Carte christian bases his religious belief on a combination of the bible and all other sources.  But the bible is dug in there like a tick.

this was a response to someone who said they did not follow the bible.  I contend that they actually are because it is built into their cultural awareness.  That his god is loosly based on the bible god.  Ultimately I am asking why he has his christian ala carte religion if he believes the bible is false.  If he could eliminate all of his biblical baggage (since he already says the bible is false) could he explain where he belief in god comes from.  If he were raised in a world with out christianity does he think his religion would remain unchanged?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2013, 08:57:09 AM »
Sentience has at least on this topic of morality has little value.  I attempt to deliberately put aside what I feel or sense in order to rationally approach the question of morality.  In doing so there is no sentient 4).  There is only a logical 4).  Elect or self elect 2) means from human perspective.  It's self evident that option 4) something beyond us in all probability is self elected. 

Ah, I see.  You were loading the options before you posed the question - my mistake.

A being greater than us, however, we describe greater could make such a logical argument even if we didn't agree with it.   Such a being could rationally claim to have greater knowledge, greater understanding, greater power, etc. 

Maybe.  Who knows?  Such a being would have to be proven before a universal morality can be established, of course.  So what you are saying essentially is that we have NO way of deducing a universal morality.  Fair enough.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2013, 09:05:25 AM »
Dzzer

Question. If a being greater than us is the one responsible for our morality, shouldn't he or she be moral enough to pass on that morality in a competent manner?  In the case of the alleged christian god, his morality is supposedly passed on via one book, which is multiply interpreted, both unmaliciously and maliciously altered, hard to understand and never updated to keep up with modernizing and ever more complex societies. Not to mention defining morals and keeping them local until such time as his lambs learn how to cross oceans and such.

Such inefficiencies seem to indicate an overall incompetence. I'm not sure i would want a god who is immorally hung up on both his own ego and free will to be defining anything in my life. Someone muttering "Worship me, worship me!" and "I don't care that that little girl is being raped and murdered by that sexual predator right now, his free will to choose me trumps her little life" isn't the one I want telling me what is right and wrong when it comes to moral dilemmas.

If my morals trump his, I don't want him telling me what I should do. You know, like telling me that I have to cut off my wife's hand if she should happen to touch the genitals of my attacker while trying to stop him from hurting me.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2013, 09:13:07 AM »
Further to that, as Dzzer points out, it is pointless debating a morality that is "variable, unmeasurable and relative".  So any moral being such as he poses would HAVE to be subject to the same morality as every other creature. 

The universal morality Dzzer is seeking certainly disqualifies Yahweh from the running, as his morality is clearly variable according to who you are.  Not to say there isn't another candidate for Dzzer's all-knowing god that follows the universal morality it created, just that most gods throughtout history don't fit the bill.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2013, 10:32:54 AM »
According to Christians, just by being born, EVERYONE is a sinner.

In my opinion, morality is like a light switch you can turn on and off. Too bad there's no switch for our so called "sin gene" that Christians swear we all have.

So basically, I guess bible-god brought everyone into the world as "i/moral sinners".

I guess my point it, why bother trying to posses morality when your god will always see you as a sinner?

I think it's better to be good for goodness sake.

First let me say that Christianity developed the original sin concept from Eden yet the Jews saw Eden as a place of man's elevation and not the fall that Christianity made of it.

Christianity's form of being born sinners is true but not the way they see it is wrong.

We all have the potential and will all do evil, no choice, but our default position is to cooperate or do good and not compete which creates a victim or loser and is thus evil from his POV while things are good from our POV as the winner.


Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.



If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.



Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 10:46:37 AM by Greatest I am »

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2013, 10:39:49 AM »
If morality is variable, unmeasurable and relative it is also undefinable save in a specific moment, by specific people in specific circumstances.  It is a moveable object that everyone and yet no-one has the right to move.  To my mind morality cannot be discussed in any meaningful fashion without first establishing the authority, truth or foundation upon which it is to be built.  I can think of lots of ways to establish such foundations but in examining these I find non-theists get enraged find none of the options desirable or even palatable.   Boiling it down to simple options it seems to me that morality can be built on 1) the view of the majority 2) the elect (self elected or voted) 3) ration and reason 4) external element (God, God's or simply "the force").   Non-theists I have discussed this with strive to embrace 1),  2) or 3) but in the end concede these options are abhorrent and not acceptable since at their heart there is simply no right or wrong, good or evil.  This leaves a massive vacuum somehow and for some reason the majority of us cannot live with because it doesn't explain the world we live in and specifically the heinous acts we have witnessed.  I'm more than happy to consider the other options if they could be presented to hold water but the reality of rational thought in my mind leaves only option 4).

If I were to agree here then you would have to explain why most moral codes put others first but with Christianity their God put's himself above all else even as he is not here to express his sovereignty and will.

Morality is how to treat others but God is only worried about himself and is completely self-centered and self-absorbed. IOW, God is not a moral entity at all.

No wonder he can kill so many of us as compared to Satan.

Satan has better morals than God.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2013, 10:44:12 AM »
Sentience has at least on this topic of morality has little value.  I attempt to deliberately put aside what I feel or sense in order to rationally approach the question of morality.  In doing so there is no sentient 4).  There is only a logical 4).  Elect or self elect 2) means from human perspective.  It's self evident that option 4) something beyond us in all probability is self elected.  The question  that draws to credibility of the claim to self elect or elect.  I have found any and all argument that any human or even group of humans have any right to decided morality based on their own authority.  A being greater than us, however, we describe greater could make such a logical argument even if we didn't agree with it.   Such a being could rationally claim to have greater knowledge, greater understanding, greater power, etc.  That doesn't mean the being is necessarily better in the same way a parent might know more and yet make a mistake their child wouldn't have.  It just means if you're going to decide who in the family has the most rational argument to make decisions it has to be the greater knowledge parent.

And if we look at A & E then the greater knowledge was with Eve and it was recognized by Adam who did the right thing by going with her and not the God who was demonstrably not as bright as Eve in the moral and only real important sense to the bible.

Regards
DL


Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2013, 06:37:17 PM »
Religion is the state of mind which allows someone to demonise the outsider with good conscience.

It overcomes the innate morality which has evolved to form communities.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2013, 02:28:35 AM »
Ohh the great theist morality debate...

It makes me ponder what would happen if the *insert holy book* disappeared, heck, some of them even claim that they becomes monsters of morality and start raping everything.

Then they start talking about how atheists must have got their morals from somewhere, and somehow don't know about parents, media, literature (other than the bible), etc.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2013, 03:33:49 AM »
I should have added a third sentence.

Someone within the single community desires to be controlled even to the point of physical and moral damage to prove that they belong. ( mutual mutilation for example )

So religion is poison both to the insider and to the outsider.

Human morality is at present out of step with large scale communities such as cities. Humans may evolve to become either more peaceful or more violent, or just have to cope with it and become better educated.
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2013, 07:47:57 AM »
Religion is the state of mind which allows someone to demonise the outsider with good conscience.

It overcomes the innate morality which has evolved to form communities.

You see 20/20.

Protecting ones tribe is ok but not at the cost of creating delusion that as you say demonizes all the other tribes.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Is morality proof of god.
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2013, 07:50:35 AM »
Ohh the great theist morality debate...

It makes me ponder what would happen if the *insert holy book* disappeared, heck, some of them even claim that they becomes monsters of morality and start raping everything.

Then they start talking about how atheists must have got their morals from somewhere, and somehow don't know about parents, media, literature (other than the bible), etc.

Indeed.

The stats show the opposite right now.



Regards
DL