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Offline Hatter23

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The Bible and Christianity
« on: September 04, 2013, 03:29:02 PM »
Christianity isn't about the bible though. It SAYS it is, but attend a mass, any denomination, and look and listen. How much old testament "sacrificing a bull without blemish" and "mixed fiber clothing is an abomination" do you see?

Because I don't see much of that.

Lets be fair, and look around again, how much "Sell all you have and give it to the poor" or "Love you neighbor as yourself" do you see?

Because I see much of that either.

I see a lot of people in their best clothes, gathering, gossiping, being lectured to, and feeling like they are the special friend of an invisible being, and condemning those who that aren't much like themselves. I have a feeling that masses to Jupiter 2500 years ago were likely just about the exactly the same things.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 09:51:12 PM »
I think church in the beginning was about spreading Christianity to the illiterate. Today it's more about people of like-mind to gather together for conversation, excluding of course the spreading of their religion to those who are different than them, including other Christians. Also, it's a reflex they, sometimes can't help. Their parents did it, so they do it.

Of course then you have some Christians, told by their leaders, who believe if they don't go to church (or give 10-15% of their earnings to said church) they will burn in hell.

Get rid of all the churches,  the religion and the people will still be there but in a diminished fashion.

-Nam

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Offline b.a.worldchanger

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 12:58:10 AM »
Christianity isn't about the bible though. It SAYS it is, but attend a mass, any denomination, and look and listen. How much old testament "sacrificing a bull without blemish" and "mixed fiber clothing is an abomination" do you see?

Because I don't see much of that.

You don't see much of that because it is irrelevant to most believers in Christ.  There is no need to sacrifice a bull, so this is why you'll see more of an emphasis on the New Testament.  The OT is largely used as a symbolic marker to point to Jesus Christ, not as a set of rigid rules one must follow after the New Covenant.  I suspect you're aware of all this already since I'm not the first theist to visit the boards.  But, Jesus simply asks us to follow 2 commandments upon which all the law and prophets are built. 

1. Love God
2. Love People

Quote
Lets be fair, and look around again, how much "Sell all you have and give it to the poor" or "Love you neighbor as yourself" do you see?

Because I see much of that either.

I see a lot of people in their best clothes, gathering, gossiping, being lectured to, and feeling like they are the special friend of an invisible being, and condemning those who that aren't much like themselves. I have a feeling that masses to Jupiter 2500 years ago were likely just about the exactly the same things.

This is the greater concern with how modern Christianity is portrayed and "lived" out.  In truth, especially in Western Culture, it largely is not.  This shouldn't be surprising as Jesus, Peter, and Paul all address this issue and tell us that this is exactly what will happen.  I don't think you're far off in your observations, I think most cultural Christians don't really even know what the Bible says, let alone understand or believe in it.  Reading a great book by Dietrich Bonhoeffer right now called The Cost of Discipleship.  It is a very challenging book, but it paints a picture of Christianity that you just don't see lived out very frequently, but one that is probably more in line with what is taught by Jesus and the Apostles.  Western Christianity is a little too preoccupied with everything else to really worry about understanding or obeying the things that Jesus taught, or what the Bible even says.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:02:21 AM by b.a.worldchanger »

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 01:43:43 AM »
b.a.w.,

What about the passage in Matthew that states that Jesus didn't come to abolish the old laws[1] but came to fulfill them? Sounds like that contradicts your viewpoint, no?

-Nam
 1. Old Testament
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Offline b.a.worldchanger

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 02:04:58 AM »
b.a.w.,

What about the passage in Matthew that states that Jesus didn't come to abolish the old laws[1] but came to fulfill them? Sounds like that contradicts your viewpoint, no?

-Nam
 1. Old Testament

He did fulfill the law, perfectly.  Are you unfamiliar with typical Christian doctrine regarding the righteousness and imputation of Jesus Christ?  That would surprise me since you seem to be pretty well versed and have spent a lot of time in these forums.  Are you familiar with the doctrine in Hebrews, which goes into great detail about the requirements of the law for those who refuse righteousness through Jesus Christ?

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 04:04:45 AM »
b.a.w.,

What about the passage in Matthew that states that Jesus didn't come to abolish the old laws[1] but came to fulfill them? Sounds like that contradicts your viewpoint, no?

-Nam
 1. Old Testament

He did fulfill the law, perfectly.  Are you unfamiliar with typical Christian doctrine regarding the righteousness and imputation of Jesus Christ?  That would surprise me since you seem to be pretty well versed and have spent a lot of time in these forums.  Are you familiar with the doctrine in Hebrews, which goes into great detail about the requirements of the law for those who refuse righteousness through Jesus Christ?

I'm not talking about what Jesus[2] did or didn't do, I'm talking about you stating that you and other Christians ignore some of the laws in the Old Testament based on the fact they are outdated laws yet you and others follow what Jesus teaches in the New Testament but you don't really because if you did then you'd recognize that passage in Matthew states that Jesus came to hold those laws to the same validity to any of his teachings in the NT. That's why many Christians hold the 10 Commandments to such high regard but then those same Christians ignore all the other 300+ laws stated in the OT.

As a side note: you'll find many atheists here have actually read the Bible where as we find most Christians have not.

-Nam
 2. if he existed
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 04:11:02 AM »
Mr Baracus. may I call you BA.
However then there's the next line "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.… " So it seems they wont be perfectly fulfilled until the demise of earth and heaven. Or would you like to take another spin.[1]
 1.  (double entendre)
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 04:14:14 AM »
Mr Baracus. may I call you BA.
However then there's the next line "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.… " So it seems they wont be perfectly fulfilled until the demise of earth and heaven. Or would you like to take another spin.[1]
 1.  (double entendre)

More like BS.

;)

-Nam
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 04:59:54 AM »
I see a lot of people in their best clothes, gathering, gossiping, being lectured to, and feeling like they are the special friend of an invisible being, and condemning those who that aren't much like themselves. I have a feeling that masses to Jupiter 2500 years ago were likely just about the exactly the same things.

This is the greater concern with how modern Christianity is portrayed and "lived" out.  In truth, especially in Western Culture, it largely is not.  This shouldn't be surprising as Jesus, Peter, and Paul all address this issue and tell us that this is exactly what will happen.  I don't think you're far off in your observations, I think most cultural Christians don't really even know what the Bible says, let alone understand or believe in it.  Reading a great book by Dietrich Bonhoeffer right now called The Cost of Discipleship.  It is a very challenging book, but it paints a picture of Christianity that you just don't see lived out very frequently, but one that is probably more in line with what is taught by Jesus and the Apostles. 

I agree.  And its why I say that the vast, vast majority of "Christians" don't really believe. 

For someone who really believed - really properly believed that there was an omnimax god sitting in judgement of them and that their actions would influence their personal eternity - it would be a very, very hard life to lead.  Certainly there would be little or no way they could fit into a normal Western society.

Jesus said we had to "hate our families", and I think he got that right.  Not in the way that many atheists would have it, that you have to actually hate them, but that they must come a distant and poor second to god.  That one's service to god will always take precedence, and that this might mean not seeing them for months at a time as you minister to them, not buying them any creature comforts as all your money goes to the poor, and so forth.

Truly following Jesus would be a very hard path - and I quite agree that we will see very few people managing it.  Or even attempting it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 05:16:00 AM »
^probably less than .0000000000000001% of them has ever attempted it. In all of history, based on whatever evidence that could be confirmed (if any) has ever actually done it.

Every Christian coming here, one knows, never has or they wouldn't come here. Also, in the strictest sense, any Christian in outside life unless they live in a commune or are isolated. The US is a greatly diverse land; therefore no Christian here ever has in the past, present, or future.

That's the difficulty of the laws of the Bible, there are so many, especially those contradicting others, it's impossible (not improbable) to follow them all. If Jesus existed, I highly doubt even he pulled it off.

-Nam
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 06:32:35 AM »
I can say for a fact that there are no Christians in the town where I live (despite the census reporting about 60% of them are).  I know this for a fact because there are homeless people on the streets, and Matthew couldn't be clearer in saying "treat them as if they were Christ, take them in and feed and clothe them".  Goes back to what I said about "hating" your family: a True Christian should make space in his home to bring those people in, and if that means they and their partner and their kids move into a single bedroom, then that's what should happen.

No TRUE Christian would walk past a homeless person because they would know they would be judged exactly as if they had walked past Christ.  So I know there are no true Christians in my home town.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 06:42:43 AM »
Christianity isn't about the bible though. It SAYS it is, but attend a mass, any denomination, and look and listen. How much old testament "sacrificing a bull without blemish" and "mixed fiber clothing is an abomination" do you see?

Because I don't see much of that.

You don't see much of that because it is irrelevant to most believers in Christ.  There is no need to sacrifice a bull, so this is why you'll see more of an emphasis on the New Testament.  The OT is largely used as a symbolic marker to point to Jesus Christ, not as a set of rigid rules one must follow after the New Covenant.  I suspect you're aware of all this already since I'm not the first theist to visit the boards.  But, Jesus simply asks us to follow 2 commandments upon which all the law and prophets are built. 

1. Love God
2. Love People

I think we need to look in Acts to understand what is happening in the modern church. Acts 15 is an account of a 'bust-up' between James and Peter of the Jerusalem Church (who remained Jews but worshipped Jesus as well) and Paul who represented the gentile Christians he had converted. Peter and co wanted the Gentile to covert to Judaism and take on the yoke of the Torah. Paul didn't. They settled at the Gentiles agreeing not to drink the blood of animals and to refrain from eating meat offered to idols. In effect, that ended the need for Christians to keep to the Torah so that, for them, the NT was the sole guide though the OT helps supporting it.

Thus no Christians today concern themselves with the make-up of their clothes or even how they wash the bed that a menstruating woman has used. They do not have to comply with the OT stuff as BAW says.

Quote
Quote
Lets be fair, and look around again, how much "Sell all you have and give it to the poor" or "Love you neighbor as yourself" do you see?

Because I see much of that either.

I see a lot of people in their best clothes, gathering, gossiping, being lectured to, and feeling like they are the special friend of an invisible being, and condemning those who that aren't much like themselves. I have a feeling that masses to Jupiter 2500 years ago were likely just about the exactly the same things.

This is the greater concern with how modern Christianity is portrayed and "lived" out.  In truth, especially in Western Culture, it largely is not.  This shouldn't be surprising as Jesus, Peter, and Paul all address this issue and tell us that this is exactly what will happen.  I don't think you're far off in your observations, I think most cultural Christians don't really even know what the Bible says, let alone understand or believe in it.  Reading a great book by Dietrich Bonhoeffer right now called The Cost of Discipleship.  It is a very challenging book, but it paints a picture of Christianity that you just don't see lived out very frequently, but one that is probably more in line with what is taught by Jesus and the Apostles.  Western Christianity is a little too preoccupied with everything else to really worry about understanding or obeying the things that Jesus taught, or what the Bible even says.

Sure there is a problem with 'Christians' who go to church for social reasons though I think many churches might have to shut down permanently if they stopped paying. Yet to no judge is build into the teaching of Jesus so, probably, genuine Christians don't question others but leave it to god to sort out the goats after they die.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 06:48:13 AM by Anfauglir »
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 06:43:15 AM »
See that's the problem with that: what if those homeless people weren't Christian (or their type of Christian)? Corinthians clearly states that they can't converse or keep company with non-believers. So, even if they helped a particular homeless person (not of their religion) they'd be doing the right thing by one law, and the wrong thing by another law.

It's all a catch-22.

-Nam
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 07:39:58 AM »
Seems like Christian doctrine is about as clear as mud regarding how Christians should act.  On the one hand, you should do certain things, on the other hand, you should not do certain other things (which contradicts the first set of things much of the time), and it would take a full-time personal assistant to really keep all of it straight...at least if you wanted to have a real life.  You would literally have to live as a monk or a nun in order to have the time to keep track of it all yourself.

And Christians believing that Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly is not the same as it actually having happened.  Or of it mattering whether he did.  Using "he fulfilled the law" as an excuse to not do it is pretty meaningless.  It's like saying, "that other guy fulfilled the speed limit laws, so I don't have to worry about them".  See how bad that argument is?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2013, 08:06:27 AM »
Seems like Christian doctrine is about as clear as mud regarding how Christians should act.  On the one hand, you should do certain things, on the other hand, you should not do certain other things (which contradicts the first set of things much of the time), and it would take a full-time personal assistant to really keep all of it straight...at least if you wanted to have a real life.  You would literally have to live as a monk or a nun in order to have the time to keep track of it all yourself.

Possibly it does as, certainly in some sects, lawyers have worked hard. The Vatican has lots and lots of rules and regulations for example but mostly they are extensions of rather more simple things in the bible. To be fair, the exhortation to love god and love one's neighbour probably is the extent of what the early church expected of its converts. Frankly, it pretty simple.

Quote
And Christians believing that Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly is not the same as it actually having happened.  Or of it mattering whether he did.  Using "he fulfilled the law" as an excuse to not do it is pretty meaningless.  It's like saying, "that other guy fulfilled the speed limit laws, so I don't have to worry about them".  See how bad that argument is?


Ah, but this is based on only one possible way of translating. A better translation would render the passage  as 'Jesus completed the law'. Completing implies that the last bits of teaching Jesus gave ended the long list of rules and regulations (613 in the Torah)
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline b.a.worldchanger

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2013, 02:45:15 PM »
I'm not talking about what Jesus[1] did or didn't do...
 1. if he existed

Ah, I purposely only selected this part of your quote because, in reality, this is the basis of all of Christianity and is the most important part of the discussion, irregardless of your position on the law of the OT.  It is called the New Covenant for a reason, and it is better and superior to the old because it is based solely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ and what he did do.

From that point on, if you'd like, we can discuss more about what Jesus is referring to in the scripture regarding the law.

Offline b.a.worldchanger

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2013, 02:50:38 PM »
Mr Baracus. may I call you BA.
However then there's the next line "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.… " So it seems they wont be perfectly fulfilled until the demise of earth and heaven. Or would you like to take another spin.[1]
 1.  (double entendre)

This is absolutely correct, Jesus implies that the original law is still the standard by which men will be judged.  For those who "choose" the law, or those that reject Christ, the standards of the Law still apply.  The entire theme of the Hebrews is how Jesus is better than the law.

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2013, 03:19:09 PM »
I'm not talking about what Jesus[1] did or didn't do...
 1. if he existed

Ah, I purposely only selected this part of your quote because, in reality, this is the basis of all of Christianity and is the most important part of the discussion, irregardless of your position on the law of the OT.  It is called the New Covenant for a reason, and it is better and superior to the old because it is based solely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ and what he did do.

From that point on, if you'd like, we can discuss more about what Jesus is referring to in the scripture regarding the law.

First off "regardless". "irregardless" is not a word.

Wrong. The "Christ" encompasses all of Christianity, whether a man named "Jesus" is the "Christ" is still up for debate in many circles. Just because the New Testament writes fantastical stories of a man named Jesus (who originally was named Immanuel, apparently) and says he is the one speaking in the New Testament is all hearsay, and lacks any real cogent evidence but for itself as evidence.

Going by what you state; that being the New Testament is the law before the Old Testament then

1. Why doesn't it come first in the Bible? The Old Testament proceeds it? And...
2. Why, in the first book of the New Testament, and one of the first, if not the first, that Jesus says is, "I did not come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it"? Which means he doesn't discount the Old Law and place the New laws before it since one of the first things he mentions IS the OT.  He doesn't say New laws and state "follow these before the old" he mentions the fulfillment of the Old laws before anything else.

Why mention it if the New takes precedent over the Old? Why have the Old before the New in the book if the New is more important?

Get it yet?

-Nam
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:23:57 PM by Nam »
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2013, 03:23:03 PM »
Mr Baracus. may I call you BA.
However then there's the next line "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.… " So it seems they wont be perfectly fulfilled until the demise of earth and heaven. Or would you like to take another spin.[1]
 1.  (double entendre)

This is absolutely correct, Jesus implies that the original law is still the standard by which men will be judged.  For those who "choose" the law, or those that reject Christ, the standards of the Law still apply.  The entire theme of the Hebrews is how Jesus is better than the law.

Jesus: "I have come to fulfill the Old Law" to you equates to Jesus: "I am better than the Old law".

Separate note: how do you know that's what he's implying?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2013, 06:19:09 PM »
I'm not talking about what Jesus[1] did or didn't do...
 1. if he existed

Ah, I purposely only selected this part of your quote because, in reality, this is the basis of all of Christianity and is the most important part of the discussion, irregardless of your position on the law of the OT.  It is called the New Covenant for a reason, and it is better and superior to the old because it is based solely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ and what he did do.

From that point on, if you'd like, we can discuss more about what Jesus is referring to in the scripture regarding the law.
So the original word of God is flawed?(the OT)
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 06:08:09 AM »
It is called the New Covenant for a reason, and it is better and superior to the old because it is based solely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ and what he did do.

From that point on, if you'd like, we can discuss more about what Jesus is referring to in the scripture regarding the law.
So the original word of God is flawed?(the OT)

That's what he is saying.  The OT is inferior to the covenant that Christ made.  Which means that for 4,000 years or so, Yahweh was overseeing a world running on commandments that he knew were sub-optimal.

I guess its hardly a surprise that there was a need for Christ to come and sort it all out.  The questions that need to be answered is why would Yahweh be content for 100 generations to live and die under "beta-test" rules?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 09:52:13 AM »
Mr Baracus. may I call you BA.
However then there's the next line "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.… " So it seems they wont be perfectly fulfilled until the demise of earth and heaven. Or would you like to take another spin.[1]
 1.  (double entendre)

This is absolutely correct, Jesus implies that the original law is still the standard by which men will be judged.  For those who "choose" the law, or those that reject Christ, the standards of the Law still apply.  The entire theme of the Hebrews is how Jesus is better than the law.

This sounds fine - the people are to keep the Torah as well as the rules Jesus sets - is that it? Peter and the disciples did just that - attending Temple services as well as worshipping Jesus.

The problem is that the completed Torah (completed by Jesus) was summarily dumped in Acts 15 allowing trifling things to restrict new converts (avoid blood and meat offered to idols). So whilst Jesus kept the Torah and encouraged the people to do so, after he died it was OK to dump it in favour of not much more than hero worship.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline neopagan

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2013, 11:45:35 AM »
So god is kind of like MS Windows? Covenant 1.0 and onward?  Fear the blue screen of death
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline William

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 11:56:50 AM »
So god is kind of like MS Windows? Covenant 1.0 and onward?  Fear the blue screen of death

And auto-updates bug-fixes every time you connect with the Spook  :blank:
Git mit uns

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 03:18:35 AM »
I guess its hardly a surprise that there was a need for Christ to come and sort it all out.  The questions that need to be answered is why would Yahweh be content for 100 generations to live and die under "beta-test" rules?

Subsidiary question: In 5BCE, people living and dying would be "judged" by Yahweh under the old rules.  As we run through the years around 30CE, we would get a mix of people dying.  Some would know nothing about the OT.  Some would have heard all about the New Covenant and be judged by it.  And, of course, the group living twenty miles outside of Galilee who heard some vague stories about this preacher with the new ideas, but not really understood them or had heard them all.

In the years past 35CE, we could see a ripple effect spreading out from the area.  Depending on how far you were from the area, how much you listened to new ideas, you may or may not hear the New Covenant.  So what does Yahweh do?  The new Covenent exists, its out there, is he still judging people by two seperate standards?  Seems weird - if his "New Rules" are all that, then it seems bizarre to accept that some people can be judged on the old rules just because they hadn't yet heard them.

I wonder how Yahweh judged the 90 year old man on his deathbed, born and raised in the traditions of the OT, who hears the New Covenant on the day he dies, but rejects it as he doesn't have the time for it to take hold?

In short, its a big mess.  Yahweh changes the rules mid-game for everyone alive at that point.  Why change something if its not working?  And if its not working, what kind of dumb-ass came up with the unworkable rules in the first place?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2013, 01:50:55 PM »
 The Xaayda people did not hear about the NT or OT till the 1760's where does that leave our deceased?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2013, 02:01:19 PM »
The Xaayda people did not hear about the NT or OT till the 1760's where does that leave our deceased?

Hell, of course.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Bible and Christianity
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2013, 02:15:12 PM »
The Xaayda people did not hear about the NT or OT till the 1760's where does that leave our deceased?

Hell, of course.

-Nam
Sounds like something an all loving God would do.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)