Author Topic: A response to your oversight [#2758]  (Read 1422 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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A response to your oversight [#2758]
« on: August 26, 2013, 05:57:41 AM »
Hello.

I thought I would comment on your not so accurate statements.

God does indeed tell us that he will answer all of our prayers.  But He does not say he give us "everything we ask for".  He answers our prayers in three ways... Yes, No, and Not at this time.

Why doesn't God heal amputees?  For the same reason he doesn't allow us all to win the lottery. We screwed it up in the garden of Eden, by not listening to his instruction.  His promise after our failing was that we would have struggles in our life. God allows bad things to happen in our lives for a very simple reason, and most individuals such as yourself overlook it because it is so simple. God lets problems come into our life, because these events bring us back to Him.  Think about it. When communities suffer a traumatic event what do you hear?...Communities coming together and "praying".. for help.

You see... the problem is this... all the scholars and educated "experts" overlook the obvious, God loves us. There are reasons for everything and it is by His Grace and Master plan that they occur.

Yes, God tells us whatever we ask of Him, (here is the important part) "Believing we will receive", you shall receive.   If you truly believe in God and believe that He has the best plan for your life you aren't going to ask for a million dollars or boats and Mc Mansions, or things that you don't truly need... You are going to ask Him for what He wants us to have.

God knows what we need. Look for it... that's in the Bible too. (hint -- Sermon on the mount.)

The key is this... Trust in the Lord and all the things you need will be given to you.

I welcome your response and intelligent debate on this matter.

Be well, and God Bless.

[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Bojan

Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 07:32:38 AM »
Quote
We screwed it up in the garden of Eden, by not listening to his instruction.
How can we, mortal beings, screw up something for almighty being? Couldn't he see the future and know how will it end? And yet, god created everything so that events could develop towards our miserable existence, where we only have a decade or two of youth and happines and then grow old and sick, before we die.
I would expect from an almighty being who really loves us to create a reality with no temptations, so that we can enjoy without fear and possibility to screw things up.

I often hear that argument from christians..."we made mistake". But that's idiotic to me. It's like having a small child and leaving your house full of pistols, knives, electric wires, and then blame the child if he kills himself. Ye, it was his fault, I told him not to play with guns...

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God loves us.
Then why aren't we living eternal happy lives, naked in nature, multiplying like rabbits, with no worries? Surely an almighty being would've figured out a reality where these 6000 years of pain and deaths wouldn't be necessary?
It's true that child learns if he injures himself, but if you're loving parent, for sure you'd try to anticipate dangerous situations and try to avoid them for your kid. Your description of loving god reminds me of a parent who lets his kid be hit by a car so that he learns to be careful before crossing street

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2013, 07:33:59 AM »
Quote from: LW 2758
Hello.

Greetings.

Quote
I thought I would comment on your not so accurate statements.

I'm all ears.

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God does indeed tell us that he will answer all of our prayers.  But He does not say he give us "everything we ask for".

Actually, he does.  Mark  11:24 -- "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

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He answers our prayers in three ways... Yes, No, and Not at this time.

I could just as easily say the same thing about praying to a jug of milk.

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Why doesn't God heal amputees?  For the same reason he doesn't allow us all to win the lottery.

That doesn't even make any sense.  A lottery, by the very structure of the way it functions, can have only a small handful of winners out of all the people that play.  There's no reason that all amputees couldn't be "winners" in the sense of getting their limbs back, though.

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We screwed it up in the garden of Eden

WE did no such thing.  WE weren't even there.  (Assuming that the story is even historically accurate, which it isn't.)

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God lets problems come into our life, because these events bring us back to Him.

You sound like you have battered wife syndrome.  "He beats me because he loves me."

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Think about it. When communities suffer a traumatic event what do you hear?...Communities coming together and "praying".. for help.

I also see communities getting together and actually working together to help each other.  They're the ones who actually get things accomplished -- the people who sit around praying never get anything done.

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If you truly believe in God and believe that He has the best plan for your life you aren't going to ask for a million dollars or boats and Mc Mansions, or things that you don't truly need...

People also pray for things that they really do need, and their prayers frequently don't get answered, either; e.g., global starvation, cancer patients, etc.

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You are going to ask Him for what He wants us to have.

Why in the world would you ask for that?  If Yahweh wants us to have something, he'll just give it to us, won't he?  Asking for it is moot.  In fact, the way it often works is, when someone wants you to have something, it's something that you have not asked for.

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God knows what we need. Look for it... that's in the Bible too.

I've read that thing cover to cover, as have most of the regulars here.  I defy you to go up to a rape victim, look her straight in the eye, and tell her that God says that she needs to marry her attacker.  I'll be standing far, far away waiting for you to tell me what kind of a reaction you receive, assuming you live to tell the tale.

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(hint -- Sermon on the mount.)

The sermon on the mount, frankly, sucks.  I'd explain why, but I don't think I can add anything to what Matt Dillahunty has already said.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Sermon_on_the_Mount

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The key is this... Trust in the Lord and all the things you need will be given to you.

If that were demonstrably true, it would be impossible for there to be any debate on the subject.  Christians would be visibly -- plainly visibly -- better off than non-Christians.  They would be cured of cancer at higher rates, they would homeless and/or starving at lower rates, and so on.  But we see that this is not the case.

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I welcome your response and intelligent debate on this matter.

You will likely be receiving many replies.

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Be well, and God Bless.

Just a friendly tip:  Please do not say things like "God Bless" to atheists.  We generally don't respond favorably to it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:38:08 AM by pianodwarf »
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 08:01:30 AM »
+1 for the 1st person to post the pic of the starving kid with the vulture  behind him.  OP how is     this (the pic) from a loving god?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline William

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2013, 08:32:12 AM »
+1 for the 1st person to post the pic of the starving kid with the vulture  behind him.  OP how is     this (the pic) from a loving god?

Nick somebody else might find that pic. 
Meanwhile here is a different one which speaks of God trying to "bring us back to Him"  :-\ :'(

Git mit uns

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 08:38:22 AM »
+1 for the 1st person to post the pic of the starving kid with the vulture  behind him.  OP how is     this (the pic) from a loving god?

Ask, and ye shall receive.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 09:25:53 AM »
^^^  It's free will!  I'm not sure if it's the vulture's free will or the kid's... but either way, that's going to be the answer - with a little bit of "sin corrupted things" tossed in.  'scuse me while I hurl...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 10:05:15 AM »
Stange how christians are so big on family values while excusing the biggest case of "absent parent syndrome" ever.

They need to come up with a new word to describe the emotion and concern their god has for us, because whatever it is, it certainly doesn't resemble love in any way that matches the human manifestation of that emotion. My kids, for instance, knew I loved them because I said things like "I love you" and "lets go camping" and "supper is ready". Little things like that go a long way towards providing consistency and making such claims believable.

No, the only love involved when it comes to christianity is the love that believers have in thinking that they have hell to hold over our heads, and the love of knowing that their god is so powerful he doesn't ever have to do anything.

They should just change the name to suckeranity.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline hickdive

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 10:10:41 AM »
There are reasons for everything and it is by His Grace and Master plan that they occur.

We screwed it up in the garden of Eden, by not listening to his instruction.

So is this god of yours omnipotent or not?

Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline neopagan

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 10:17:31 AM »
Suckeranity is like no healthy familial relationship known to humans.  You beg for things you "need" from this "dad" - give us our daily bread, lead us not into temptation, don't forget us...

My kids never ask me to feed them, it's sort of what I'm expected to do as a father with half a brain.

They don't fear I will jump out and whack them, smash up their car, or shove them down the stairs because they didn't follow my rules. 



If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Astreja

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 10:24:21 AM »
Quote from: Mailbag correspondent
We screwed it up in the garden of Eden, by not listening to his instruction.

No; your alleged god screwed it up by allowing a Talking Snake™ to roam around unsupervised.

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God lets problems come into our life, because these events bring us back to Him.

Ah, classic abuser-speak:  "You're nothing without me."

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You see... the problem is this... all the scholars and educated "experts" overlook the obvious, God loves us is a myth.

FTFY.

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If you truly believe in God and believe that He has the best plan for your life...

If your god has a plan for us, why doesn't it just make the plan happen and quit it with all this peekaboo nonsense?  Your imaginary fiend is either woefully incompetent or a complete and utter fucking monster ...

... Or nonexistent. I'm going with door #3.
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Offline Nam

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 10:59:17 AM »
Hello.

I thought I would comment on your not so accurate statements.

Can't wait for your inaccurate opinion.

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God does indeed tell us that he will answer all of our prayers.

Biblegod  tells you this itself? What does it sound like?

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But He does not say he give us "everything we ask for".

Um, have you read the Bible? Apparently not. "Ask, and you shall receive." 

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He answers our prayers in three ways... Yes, No, and Not at this time.

Really? Where?

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Why doesn't God heal amputees?  For the same reason he doesn't allow us all to win the lottery.

Inaccurate. Many people win the lottery. But, you're inaccurate because what does one have to do with the other?

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We screwed it up in the garden of Eden, by not listening to his instruction.

How did the "serpent" get past the guards? And if Adam was so intelligent, how come he was so stupid in that one moment?

Pussy-whipped, huh?

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  His promise after our failing was that we would have struggles in our life. God allows bad things to happen in our lives for a very simple reason, and most individuals such as yourself overlook it because it is so simple.

Funny.

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God lets problems come into our life, because these events bring us back to Him.

What a loving god. It tortures you endlessly so you can go back for more of such love.

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  Think about it.

You first.

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When communities suffer a traumatic event what do you hear?...Communities coming together and "praying".. for help.

You're right. Nothing happens.

Quote
You see... the problem is this... all the scholars and educated "experts" overlook the obvious, God loves us. There are reasons for everything and it is by His Grace and Master plan that they occur.

Yes, God tells us whatever we ask of Him, (here is the important part) "Believing we will receive", you shall receive.   If you truly believe in God and believe that He has the best plan for your life you aren't going to ask for a million dollars or boats and Mc Mansions, or things that you don't truly need... You are going to ask Him for what He wants us to have.

God knows what we need. Look for it... that's in the Bible too. (hint -- Sermon on the mount.)

The key is this... Trust in the Lord and all the things you need will be given to you.

I welcome your response and intelligent debate on this matter.

Be well, and God Bless.

[name removed]

Tortures and loves.

What a guy.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 11:16:32 AM »
They don't fear I will jump out and whack them, smash up their car, or shove them down the stairs because they didn't follow my rules.

Yea, but you're not a christian father. Some that I've known would have been better served if we'd just given them a free "Whack-a-Mole" game instead of letting them have kids, who they treat about the same way. I'll never figure that one out.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 11:27:31 AM »
The tl;dr version:  God is a Magic 8-Ball, humans are at fault for why bad things happen, but God loves us anyway because humans band together when bad things happen.  Oh, and don't bother asking for things you want, God will tell you what you really need once you start believing in him.

Pretty much typical Christian rhetoric, answered dozens of times, yet each new Christian brings it out as if nobody here had ever heard of it.

I don't have time to write a long, detailed response to this letter, but here's a major flaw in the overall argument that I doubt most Christians have even considered.  Specifically, punishing descendants for the actions of their forebears.  Let's say you have a man and woman who were thieves, then settled down and got married, had kids, etc.  Then someone caught up to them , and instead of just punishing them, punished their children as well.  And then their children's children, and their children's children's children, and so on.  Not just once, or twice, but every day of their lives.

It isn't just that the punishment would be unfair and unjust.  It would actually cause people to rebel, to fight back, usually by doing the very thing that they were being punished for in the first place - the punishment would cause the behavior it was designed to stop.  In other words, this claim that Adam & Eve screwed up and thus all humans deserve to be punished the same way simply ensures that the same behavior will be repeated.

In other words, YHWH's approach was catastrophically flawed, and it took him thousands of years to figure it out.  And his revised approach hasn't exactly worked all that well, since Christians are even more prone to bad behavior than atheists are.  Both approaches depended on humans doing what they were told and not thinking for themselves - in essence, the same approach that he tried initially with Adam & Eve, and which hasn't ever worked in the long run.

I guess YHWH just isn't very good at dealing with free-willed beings.

Offline neopagan

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2013, 11:55:10 AM »
^^^Great breakdown.

 The problem is, you have taken the thought "A & E sinned and we are all doomed..." about nine steps further than xians can ever be bothered to do.  They keep repeating the mantra about he is god, blah blah blah and then the next thought is essentially a battered wife syndrome excuse about how we deserve what we get. 

I had a long conversation with a "believer" friend last week and brought up how ludicrous this whole concept was.  She eventually agreed (!?!?!?) but passed it off as "how they did things back then" and we now have a choice to be better.  My brain hurt just trying to follow her tapdancing around the room.  Regardless of the illogic or unimaginable cruelty of YHWH, he got a pass because jeezus made it all new.

I haven"t been an ex-believer for long, but these people really scare me now.  There's just something wrong going on upstairs...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Aaron123

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2013, 12:01:43 PM »
Hello.

I thought I would comment on your not so accurate statements.

God does indeed tell us that he will answer all of our prayers.  But He does not say he give us "everything we ask for".  He answers our prayers in three ways... Yes, No, and Not at this time.

*snips*

It's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure this exact arguement was refuted on the main site.  If you're going to use this arguement, at least take the refutation into account.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2013, 12:05:10 PM »
Hello.

I thought I would comment on your not so accurate statements.

Not so accurate? Oh so you have some document amputees that were healed miraculously without the need of modern medicine?

God does indeed tell us that he will answer all of our prayers.  But He does not say he give us "everything we ask for".  He answers our prayers in three ways... Yes, No, and Not at this time.

Just like a jug of milk. That would mean we are accurate and you are not.



Why doesn't God heal amputees?  For the same reason he doesn't allow us all to win the lottery.


Strangely enough...you are correct. For the wrong reason, but yes...because he doesn't exist. Furthermore this too was address in the full list of arguments you didn't bother to read. Once again we are accurate, you are not.




We screwed it up in the garden of Eden, by not listening to his instruction. 

We? We who? So it is a just and moral argument to punish someone for something 300 generations back in the family tree did? What kind of sick morality is that?


His promise after our failing was that we would have struggles in our life. God allows bad things to happen in our lives for a very simple reason, and most individuals such as yourself overlook it because it is so simple. God lets problems come into our life, because these events bring us back to Him.  Think about it. When communities suffer a traumatic event what do you hear?...Communities coming together and "praying".. for help.

Yes, and they pray to whatever god, gods, ancestor spirits, totems, or so forth that they were raised with. The results?, identical to the jug of milk


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nick

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 12:34:38 PM »
+1 for the 1st person to post the pic of the starving kid with the vulture  behind him.  OP how is     this (the pic) from a loving god?

Ask, and ye shall receive.

OP, this is how your loving     God shows His love.   If It exist...It is a monster.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Boots

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 02:19:41 PM »
God does indeed tell us that he will answer all of our prayers.  But He does not say he give us "everything we ask for".  He answers our prayers in three ways... Yes, No, and Not at this time.
....
Yes, God tells us whatever we ask of Him, (here is the important part) "Believing we will receive", you shall receive.   If you truly believe in God and believe that He has the best plan for your life you aren't going to ask for a million dollars or boats and Mc Mansions, or things that you don't truly need... You are going to ask Him for what He wants us to have.
...
The key is this... Trust in the Lord and all the things you need will be given to you.

I love this argument.  Because it's saying outright that prayer doesn't work.  Gawd will do what gawd wills despite what we ask for.  Why should anyone waste their time praying then??

Thanks, OP, for throwing us this bone.  Now you have to take that one more step from "prayer doesn't work" to "there is no gawd."   ;D
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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 02:25:41 PM »
<snip>
Why should anyone waste their time praying then??

To kiss ass; why else? YHWH itself states in the Bible that it is a Jealous god. It wants reassurance that it's the best god out there. It wants its ass kissed.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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We choose our own gods.

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Offline Nam

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 03:03:18 PM »
Such a HUGE ASS too.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 03:25:02 PM »
Salms 22

My assumed God, my assumed God,
why hast thou forsaken us?
Was it for errors of our doing or your planning that hast kept us from your salvation from the penalties for sin you created?

For all of our human existance we've called out to you,
But O my assumed God; You don't listen.

You dwell in your 'Holy Place' and train us to await blessing you will bring.
In you our fathers put hope, but they suffered thru life, died, and we who buried them ourselves can attest that your salvation was not found in this life and though they are gone,
You have visited the wrath from their sins upon us their children who suffer in this world as well as if our being here was a part of our own choosing.

I have put my trust in you as well O Lord,
and for that I am mocked because you have yet to save me.

I have trusted you since being pulled from the womb,
I hoped in you while sucking on my mother's breast.
For all my days you've been my God.
Yet as life's troubled drawn near yet again my faith does more for me that you do.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 03:05:42 AM »
Quote from: Believer#2578
Why doesn't God heal amputees?  For the same reason he doesn't allow us all to win the lottery.

Looky there - THAT's where your argument falls apart.  Because SOME people win the lottery - and you can be damn sure that SOME of them prayed for it.  But NOBODY who prays for their legs or arms to grow back gets 'em.

So THAT is the question you have to answer, #2578.  Why god apparently sometimes answers anything that could happen by coincidence (your "yes, no, later" BS), but NEVER answers a prayer that could never happen by chance.

Go ahead.  I'll wait patiently while you correct your oversight.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Nam

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2013, 11:42:21 AM »
^you're going to be waiting awhile. Hope you have snacks.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2013, 01:00:15 PM »
^you're going to be waiting awhile. Hope you have snacks.

-Nam

And by snacks...we mean a bunker full of can goods.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Nam

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2013, 04:20:09 PM »
^you're going to be waiting awhile. Hope you have snacks.

-Nam

And by snacks...we mean a bunker full of can goods.

That and powdered eggs and milk but no water.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline shnozzola

Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 04:49:58 PM »
You know, becoming sure that there is no god - no heaven, hell, floating sky daddy, holy trinity, allah, etc - I start to not like the picture of the child and the vulture.  We atheists bring it out like a banner for winning debates.  With, say 90% of us, I don't know the numbers, on the atheist side, this picture reminds me of society's failing, not the proof of a non-existent god.

Probably most of us, atheists and theists, change our ringtones, fold up the laptops, and sip our lattes, happily convinced we've won the debate on the existence of a deity.  But that child is still there.  How many people have been killed in Syria in the last few days?  Outrage about a deity -  any threads on the constant man's inhumanity to man?   Maybe I got up on the wrong side of my oh-so-comfortable bed, but that child is always there.
“I wanna go ice fishing on Europa, and see if something swims up to the camera lens and licks it.”- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Online One Above All

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 04:51:56 PM »
With, say 90% of us, I don't know the numbers, on the atheist side, this picture reminds me of society's failing, not the proof of a non-existent god.

Why not both?
Note that I only posted the picture at another's request. I keep my comments on it to myself... most of the time.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Nick

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Re: A response to your oversight [#2758]
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 05:13:39 PM »
You know, becoming sure that there is no god - no heaven, hell, floating sky daddy, holy trinity, allah, etc - I start to not like the picture of the child and the vulture.  We atheists bring it out like a banner for winning debates.  With, say 90% of us, I don't know the numbers, on the atheist side, this picture reminds me of society's failing, not the proof of a non-existent god.

Probably most of us, atheists and theists, change our ringtones, fold up the laptops, and sip our lattes, happily convinced we've won the debate on the existence of a deity.  But that child is still there.  How many people have been killed in Syria in the last few days?  Outrage about a deity -  any threads on the constant man's inhumanity to man?   Maybe I got up on the wrong side of my oh-so-comfortable bed, but that child is always there.
That pic is the poster pic for there being no God.  If there were how could It allow such a thing?  It could not.  I think it is like when 1000s die in an earthquake.  It is hard to get your head around it.  But one person being dug out alive and people go nuts with God and miracles.  The pic brings it back to a personal level.  Yes, there are terrible things happening in the world but still how could a God allow that pic to occur?  A pic is worth 1000 words or 1000 non existent gods.  I carry a small pic of it in my billfold.  Just in case I need to present it to a Christian for discussion.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 05:22:06 PM by Nick »
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!