Author Topic: Why are scientists afraid of god?  (Read 13138 times)

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #493 on: January 15, 2014, 11:13:49 AM »
I hardly claim to be an expert but I know some Hebrew. I would agree with the first version based on the Hebrew text. If you look at the Revised Standard version of the text, you will see the translators have a footnote suggesting an alternative, 'besides'.

Sorry, but those are the words in the Hebrew. If they don't suit, well you will have to change to accommodate them - or maybe blend them.
see this is called hermanutics. When we are unsure of exactly what the word was meant to be we look at the full council. The entirety of the Bible teaches there is only one God. God himself says:
Isaiah 43:10 (RSV since you like that one)
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There are plenty of others that tell us the "beside me" suggests something that the full council never teaches.

Fine, if you like it that way! However this is really a case of glossing over the bits that don't suit. The OT is a lot of viewpoints over quite a long period and monotheism was not the way things were in the earlier parts. Genesis and creation, of course, is quite a late part compared with Exodus. However, you make hermeneutics more like 'will it blend'

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #494 on: January 15, 2014, 11:26:17 AM »
...it's not difficult to see the stories are really myths, invented by men, as distinct from real information written or dictated by any god.
This comment seems to suggest that you have an example of info written or dictated by a god that is distinct and real. That you have used for comparison to determine no god could be responsible for the txt we have before us. (this is an example of what happens when we fail to consider the full council)
Certainly you don't have a txt that is, in your eyes, distinct or real otherwise you wouldn't be an atheist. (full council of wheels) f I was unfamiliar with the source, I may be able to conclude you to be mormon or something along these lines, having your own sacred txt.
Do you see what I mean about hermanutics?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #495 on: January 15, 2014, 11:30:24 AM »
For all of you that want to deny the gospel message of Gen5 You MUST  be able to answer the core question presented by the evidence.

Why would an ancient Hebrew scribe arrange a few names in a way that revealed something he, being a
jew, didn't believe in or had even thought of yet?

I'm quite interested to read ideas about this.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #496 on: January 15, 2014, 11:33:49 AM »
No I don't! I have no need to explain anything. If you want to understand the text inj the way that you do, well done! Yet don't expect much support here. Whatever the scribes were writing about, I'll bet it was something in their own generation - possible it was Cyrus who is praise like anything in Deutero-Isaiah
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #497 on: January 15, 2014, 11:37:57 AM »
Do you have personal knowledge of ancient Hebrew making this a first hand translation or is this just parroted info?
Can you provide a link to a linguistic expert that may give this claim some credibility?

What is the difference between being a linguistic expert and consulting a text considered to be authoritative in the field of linguistics?  Both are going to be based on the same information.  And if you use the text correctly, you should be fine.

From Ex 20:3  "You shall have no other gods before me"

Your link:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6440&t=KJV
the word used there is "paniym".[1]  According to Strong's, it means "face".  From that they meant a face, facing, presence, in front of, etc.  It lists every verse where it is used in context.  It is used a lot - 2,109 times in 1,890 verses.  In no case does it indicate an exception or exclusion.  That is obvious from the root of the word. 

Also notice in that verse, the word used for gods is "elohim", the exact same word used to name god. 



 1. approximation of the hebrew, since this forum does not do hebrew
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #498 on: January 15, 2014, 12:00:17 PM »
almost all of this is wrong.  If I were you, I would not trust that source on anything.

Adam        Man
Seth         Appointed   compensation 
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8352&t=KJV

Enosh       Mortal   man
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H583&t=KJV

Kenan      Sorrowposession
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7018&t=KJV
 
Mahalalel   The Blessed God    praise of god
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4111&t=KJV

Jared        Shall come down  close, but not quite: descent
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3382&t=KJV

Enoch        Teaching    dedicated
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H2585&t=KJV

Methuselah His death shall bring  man of the dart (possibly "archer"?)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4968&t=KJV
 
Lamech      The Despairing   powerful
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3929&t=KJV

Noah         Rest, or hope  (rest is correct, hope is not)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5146&t=KJV


Not even in the same ballpark.  So your coded message is...not. 


« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 12:14:07 PM by screwtape »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #499 on: January 15, 2014, 12:56:53 PM »
let me add that the author of that piece is Chuck Missler.  He has no credentials as a bible scholar.  On top of that, he is of dubious character:
Quote
A Los Angeles Times article reported that Missler and co-author Hal Lindsey had plagiarized a portion of Miami University Professor Edwin Yamauchi's 1982 book Foes From the Northern Frontier in their own 1992 book The Magog Factor. This mistake has been acknowledged, book shipments to bookstores have been discontinued and all of the author's proceeds have been donated to a ministry

Missler has also been accused of extensive plagiarism of New Age writer Michael Talbot's 1992 book The Holographic Universe in his 1999 book Cosmic Codes: Messages from the Edge of Eternity. Missler has since publicly apologized for this and said a correction will be inserted in all unsold copies and the book itself updated in subsequent printings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Missler

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #500 on: January 15, 2014, 01:02:46 PM »
let me add that the author of that piece is Chuck Missler.  He has no credentials as a bible scholar.  On top of that, he is of dubious character:
Quote
A Los Angeles Times article reported that Missler and co-author Hal Lindsey had plagiarized a portion of Miami University Professor Edwin Yamauchi's 1982 book Foes From the Northern Frontier in their own 1992 book The Magog Factor. This mistake has been acknowledged, book shipments to bookstores have been discontinued and all of the author's proceeds have been donated to a ministry

Missler has also been accused of extensive plagiarism of New Age writer Michael Talbot's 1992 book The Holographic Universe in his 1999 book Cosmic Codes: Messages from the Edge of Eternity. Missler has since publicly apologized for this and said a correction will be inserted in all unsold copies and the book itself updated in subsequent printings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Missler

Peanut butter guy!

He's comedy gold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #501 on: January 15, 2014, 01:40:12 PM »
Thanks for that Jdawg! I haven't stopped laughing yet!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #502 on: January 15, 2014, 02:35:21 PM »
almost all of this is wrong.  If I were you, I would not trust that source on anything.

Adam        Man
Seth         Appointed   compensation 
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8352&t=KJV

Enosh       Mortal   man
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H583&t=KJV

Kenan      Sorrowposession
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7018&t=KJV
 
Mahalalel   The Blessed God    praise of god
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4111&t=KJV

Jared        Shall come down  close, but not quite: descent
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3382&t=KJV

Enoch        Teaching    dedicated
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H2585&t=KJV

Methuselah His death shall bring  man of the dart (possibly "archer"?)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4968&t=KJV
 
Lamech      The Despairing   powerful
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3929&t=KJV

Noah         Rest, or hope  (rest is correct, hope is not)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5146&t=KJV


Not even in the same ballpark.  So your coded message is...not.

The question is did you not bother to look up Adam or are you saying both the name Enosh and Adam mean man?
Also for Seth the meaning of the name is in the txt of Gen4. We know name meanings are not as simple as regular words. Enos may mean man. However, when you add the H it changes the meaning of the word. Dr. missler explains all of this. You should watch his video on youtube.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #503 on: January 15, 2014, 02:43:08 PM »

The question is did you not bother to look up Adam or are you saying both the name Enosh and Adam mean man?
Also for Seth the meaning of the name is in the txt of Gen4. We know name meanings are not as simple as regular words. Enos may mean man. However, when you add the H it changes the meaning of the word. Dr. missler explains all of this. You should watch his video on YouTube.

Just so we know - since you are not a Hebraist and are reliant on other people, are you putting this guy up as an expert? If so, what is his qualification to speak on the Hebrew of the bible? From what I have seen, he doesn't seem that serious. After all, he seems pretty rich for getting through the eye of a needle.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #504 on: January 15, 2014, 02:47:36 PM »
Quote from: red dragon
let me add that the author of that piece is Chuck Missler.  He has no credentials as a bible scholar.  On top of that, he is of dubious character:

very good use of both misdirection and Argumentum ad hominem! I'm impressed on both counts.
maybe you can at least try to dispute the info presented as screwtape tried to do.

Quote from: wheels5894
Thanks for that Jdawg! I haven't stopped laughing yet!
I'm again disappointed in you wheels. Another example of double standard. If I had gone this route you would have posted a comment similar to mine. As I have seen you post in the past.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 04:07:56 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #505 on: January 15, 2014, 02:53:23 PM »
Harbinger

1. Please learn to quote

2. If you watched the video and you didn't think it funny then you either don't have a sense of humour or you don't understand evolution. I don't know which.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #506 on: January 15, 2014, 03:10:43 PM »
Quote from: wheels5894
Just so we know - since you are not a Hebraist and are reliant on other people, are you putting this guy up as an expert?
Much closer than you and I at least.
Quote
From what I have seen, he doesn't seem that serious. After all, he seems pretty rich for getting through the eye of a needle.
This shows clearly you don't understand the parables you have read. The rich tend to trust in their wealth rather than God. Their heart and therefore treasure is misplaced on earthly things.

More misdirection and another Argumentum ad hominem....
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 03:14:06 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #507 on: January 15, 2014, 03:30:35 PM »
Harbinger

1. Please learn to quote

2. If you watched the video and you didn't think it funny then you either don't have a sense of humour or you don't understand evolution. I don't know which.

1.what's wrong with my quote? Your comment with Jdawg's so I quoted both in the same post. What's wrong with that?
I could go back to the way I have done it in the past... either way someone is not happy. Let it go.
by the way.... Argumentum ad hominem

2.I did think it was funny. obviously for different reasons though. Can you tell me what term he clearly didn't understand?
matter+light+Time=life
He is adderssing the origin. Step one of evolution. the un-caused cause that no one wants to talk about. The root not the trunk is where the impossibility is found. Oh... and one species becoming another such as fish=rat. it's all more faith than I can muster.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #508 on: January 15, 2014, 03:39:14 PM »
Harbinger

1. Please learn to quote

2. If you watched the video and you didn't think it funny then you either don't have a sense of humour or you don't understand evolution. I don't know which.

1.what's wrong with my quote? Your comment with Jdawg's so I quoted both in the same post. What's wrong with that?
I could go back to the way I have done it in the past... either way someone is not happy. Let it go.
by the way.... Argumentum ad hominem

2.I did think it was funny. obviously for different reasons though. Can you tell me what term he clearly didn't understand?
matter+light+Time=life
He is adderssing the origin. Step one of evolution. the un-caused cause that no one wants to talk about. The root not the trunk is where the impossibility is found. Oh... and one species becoming another such as fish=rat. it's all more faith than I can muster.

The problem is your quote implies something I did not say.

Quote from: jdawg70
let me add that the author of that piece is Chuck Missler.  He has no credentials as a bible scholar.  On top of that, he is of dubious character:

That was not me.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #509 on: January 15, 2014, 04:01:17 PM »
The question is did you not bother to look up Adam or are you saying both the name Enosh and Adam mean man?

No, that is not what the question is.  The question is whether any of the information you posted is accurate.  The overwhelming majority of it conflicts with standard, accepted, non-controversial understandings. 

On top of that, you source appears to have had no formal training in greek or hebrew whatsoever and seems to have come up with meanings that suit his own purpose.  Additionally, he is a liar, a plagiarist and a huckster of the highest order. 

I did bother to look up Adam.  You have links to the source.  You may look it up yourself.

Dr. missler explains all of this.

He's not a doctor.  His "PhD" came from an unaccredited theological diploma mill and fell short of what a PhD would have to produce at a real institution.
http://calvarychapel.pbworks.com/w/page/13146612/chuck-missler

You should watch his video on youtube.

No, I shouldn't.  My time would be better spent doing pretty much anything else.

Now, admit your source is a fraud and withdraw your claims.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #510 on: January 15, 2014, 04:15:19 PM »
Harbinger

1. Please learn to quote

2. If you watched the video and you didn't think it funny then you either don't have a sense of humour or you don't understand evolution. I don't know which.

1.what's wrong with my quote? Your comment with Jdawg's so I quoted both in the same post. What's wrong with that?
I could go back to the way I have done it in the past... either way someone is not happy. Let it go.
by the way.... Argumentum ad hominem

2.I did think it was funny. obviously for different reasons though. Can you tell me what term he clearly didn't understand?
matter+light+Time=life
He is adderssing the origin. Step one of evolution. the un-caused cause that no one wants to talk about. The root not the trunk is where the impossibility is found. Oh... and one species becoming another such as fish=rat. it's all more faith than I can muster.

The problem is your quote implies something I did not say.

Quote from: jdawg70
let me add that the author of that piece is Chuck Missler.  He has no credentials as a bible scholar.  On top of that, he is of dubious character:

That was not me.

My apologies. I see where my disconnect was. I fixed it in the original. I can't fix the rest though.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #511 on: January 15, 2014, 04:22:13 PM »
harbinger, if a school is unaccredited, it means that degrees you get from it are not worth very much.  That means that since Missler got his PhD from an unaccredited school, there's no independent way to gauge just how much that degree is worth.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #512 on: January 15, 2014, 04:34:00 PM »
harbinger, if a school is unaccredited, it means that degrees you get from it are not worth very much.  That means that since Missler got his PhD from an unaccredited school, there's no independent way to gauge just how much that degree is worth.

But actually H77 is correct that bashing him based on his poor accreditation, rather than addressing what he says, does qualify as as an argument ad hom. This is actually a sticky wicket from a logic point of view, as poor morality, poor credentials, and a penchant for dishonesty leads us to reasonably dismiss what Missler has to say, but not logically.

I really am going to have to ponder on this one. Despite my low opinion of what H77 says, this is actually an intellectual puzzle with some meat on its bones.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #513 on: January 15, 2014, 04:38:10 PM »
Well I asked him because in earlier posts he was challenging other on the meaning of Hebrew words and asking for and 'expert'. Well his 'expert' seems not to be that and thus we may consider whether what he says, at least with regard to Hebrew translation, has any value. Given that Missler's translation is 'handy' to his ideas and disagrees with the usual translations I rather think this guy's lack of credentials is an issue.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #514 on: January 15, 2014, 07:49:21 PM »

2.I did think it was funny. obviously for different reasons though. Can you tell me what term he clearly didn't understand?
matter+light+Time=life
He is adderssing the origin. Step one of evolution. the un-caused cause that no one wants to talk about. The root not the trunk is where the impossibility is found. Oh... and one species becoming another such as fish=rat. it's all more faith than I can muster.

This is not evolution.

Evolution is how something already living, over time, mutates into something else. That's abiogenesis. Three entirely different disciplines Christians like to lump into the ToE: Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution.

His 'example' is akin to saying: They put diesel into the engine, but the plane wouldn't fly, so Aerodynamic Theory is proven WRONG!!!!! edit: Like the vid, people laughing at someone trying to make that point, is because that point is invalid, and the person presenting it is showing thier ignorance to the world.

Another thing he said: Time. Sure, for the sake of arguement, I'll just accept that there have been Penut Butter jars for around about 100 years. So, whens the last time you opened up a 100 year old peanut butter jar? Unlike Honey, after a certain period of time has passed (expiry date), it's no longer garanteed, because sooner or later the stuff goes bad, starts growing stuff. Makes you sick. If you're always opening garanteed fresh product, you should always be opening a fresh product. His analogy is disengenous.

If you were to stop maintaining a swimming pool, it doesn't turn into a swamp immediately, or even overnight. Sometimes depending on the weather and circulation, it can even go a week or two before you see the slightest bit of green.

In similar ways, Matter and Light, the way he uses them are also incorrect. This is why it's funny to those that actually know the ToE.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 08:26:06 PM by Ivellios »

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #515 on: January 15, 2014, 08:17:37 PM »
He is adderssing the origin. Step one of evolution. the un-caused cause that no one wants to talk about. The root not the trunk is where the impossibility is found. Oh... and one species becoming another such as fish=rat. it's all more faith than I can muster.
Doesn't work like that - you don't point to the "impossibility at the beginning" (not that there really is such a thing) and disprove everything else.  It's like how the theory of planetary formation isn't necessary to prove the theory of plate tectonics.  Similarly, the Big Bang Theory isn't necessary to prove evolutionary theory.

By the way, if you want an impossibility at the root, how about your god?  I mean, how do you explain where your god came from and how he can do such magical, miraculous things?

And finally, evolution is not magic.  Fishes don't turn into rats, nor do monkeys turn into humans.  Populations gradually change over time, diverging from other populations.  That's why all mammals are related, for example - because we all diverged from ancestors who were closer to each other in form.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #516 on: January 16, 2014, 02:50:57 AM »
He is adderssing the origin. Step one of evolution. the un-caused cause that no one wants to talk about. The root not the trunk is where the impossibility is found. Oh... and one species becoming another such as fish=rat. it's all more faith than I can muster.

Everytime you say a step in evolution is impossible (or abiogenesis as the actual case is here), you're saying that your god isn't powerful enough to have made it possible, while simultaneously believing he made it possible (without abiogenesis/"evolution")

Choose one - a weak god who finds it impossible to create nature as he wants or a god who can create nature to his will. At present, you choose both.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #517 on: January 16, 2014, 09:41:42 AM »
But actually H77 is correct that bashing him based on his poor accreditation, rather than addressing what he says, does qualify as as an argument ad hom.

Then let me elaborate on my criticism of Mr Missler. He is not a Dr.  One only gets to claim the title of Dr. when you complete the requirements, which are somewhat standard, from an accredited school.  For him to call himself Dr is a very real fraud and calls into question his integrity and believability.

Furthermore, as he is not established as any kind of authority or expert in the field of biblical translation, his entire article on the coded message is suspect.  Since he so wildly diverges from what is accepted scholarship I would expect some kind of explanation on his part establishing that is interpretations are correct and 200 years of scholarship is wrong.  In his article he does a lot of condescending handwaving and ipse dixit criticism of "other study guides" which disagree with him, but gives no reason to think is interpretation is accurate or correct. 

Additionally, the man has been caught plagiarizing in a big way twice and his whole ministry is a money making machine for him and his wife, further casting doubt not just on his knowledge but his motivation. 

To summarize, there is nothing for me to argue against.  Mr Missler has not provided any evidence to establish his own argument or his own credibility. 

Plus, what wheels said.  harb demanded we be experts and not simply "parroting" what others have said.  Yet this is exactly what harb is doing, and he is parroting a charlatan and a fraud to boot.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #518 on: January 16, 2014, 10:09:26 AM »
Hatter:  To put it simply, if someone is appealing to authority (as H77 was, albeit by invitation), it is not fallacious to point out that the authority offered is not really an authority.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #519 on: January 16, 2014, 10:20:57 AM »
Hatter:  To put it simply, if someone is appealing to authority (as H77 was, albeit by invitation), it is not fallacious to point out that the authority offered is not really an authority.

Remember Appealing to Authority is not fallacious, if the person is actually authority. But I figured it out, it isn't an argument ad hom IF the derogatory statement has evidence to support it AND the deragotory statement has bearing on their authority; which means this becomes the fallacy of "appeal to authority" visavis a unstated, nigh invisible "ignoring the counter evidence"

I figured it out in the shower this morning. However, I did enjoy that this was an actual logic problem, rather than someone just clearly committing an obvious fallacy like normal.



« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 10:23:06 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #520 on: January 16, 2014, 11:18:37 AM »
That's not quite accurate, Hatter.  A fallacious ad hominem is when you reject an argument based on some irrelevant thing (good or bad) about the person making the argument.  For example, rejecting someone's position on something because they have glasses would be a particularly egregious example.  For it not to be a fallacy, you have to show that the thing is relevant and tied to the argument the person is making.

For example, if you had someone accused of a crime, and his parents tried to argue that he wasn't guilty because he was a good and dutiful son, you could reject their argument because the parents' opinion of their son wasn't really relevant to whether he could have actually committed the crime[1].  Whereas if his parents said instead that he couldn't have committed the crime because he was eating dinner with them at the time the crime was committed, you couldn't dismiss it on the basis of them being his parents unless you could show that they were lying on his behalf or something like that.
 1. not to mention that they're committing an ad hominem of their own in rejecting the possibility of their son having committed the crime due to the fact that he was their son

Offline Nam

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #521 on: January 16, 2014, 12:18:35 PM »
Too many damn terminologies to remember. Just state what is and forget everything else.

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This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?