Author Topic: Why are scientists afraid of god?  (Read 13971 times)

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #406 on: January 05, 2014, 08:16:10 AM »

yeah that's a nice try. The entire post is outside of my theology.. In fact I said I agree with it the way it was written. why do I need to dispute what I agree with? Are you really asking me to state what I do believe... Again?

This is a terrible analogy... Here goes...
I buy a candy bar. I give it to you because I want to. It's a gift we all agree so far.
Someone said something about the number of people I don't give it to. You assume they want it? I propose they don't. It's still a gift to the one who I did give it to anyway. We all know the candy bar is salvation right? The question is do they want the candy bar? Do YOU want the candy bar? Am I jerk if I don't give you something you don't even want? Am I jerk if I make you take it anyway?
I propose God created the gifted one in such a way that he/she will want the candy bar at some point.
When the price was paid all who would ever want it received it. even before birth. Nothing you did or didn't do effects this.
This is not to say none of you unbelievers can't or don't have it. Just that currently you are not acting in it one day you just might... I can't say it's not for me to know your destiny.
by being created in such a way. Your free will is negated. You can't choose the candy bar I choose who I give it to. free will... not concerning salvation.

Bolded: If it is something the person is allergic to and you know it, then yes and yes.

You left out the most important bit. You claim it goes against your theology, but this is integral to the whole concept of salvation.

Before you offer that candy bar, you claim that after I accept it and eat of it, I'll live forever, but if I refuse to accept your gift then I shall be locked away, and tortured for all eternity. In fact all those you chose to not offer it to, will also be locked away and tortured for all eternity. Yet you cannot understand why, instead of just believing you and accepting it, I ask for proof.

So, is he a jerk for trying to force it upon me, despite telling me that it's "free?" Yes.

Edit: Forgot an additional integral part of the salvation "gift." Your candy bar is invisible and immaterial. Like giving someone a whole bunch of donut holes. Eh? Thanks?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:35:59 AM by Ivellios »

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #407 on: January 05, 2014, 04:07:25 PM »
you suppose people are innocent yet none are righteous no not one! There are none who are innocent concerning God's law.

What has righteousness got to do with innocence?
If God's law requires righteousness to be innocent, it is not a particularly fair law.

People may teach God is love but the bible certainly does not. I never made the all loving claim. I never would. God is love to all christians who are his people I'll agree to that. To say anything else contradicts Rom9:13 Jacob I have loved but esau have I hated.

So god is an omnipotent dick who requires blind idiotic followers?
Why would someone want to worship such a disgusting being?

Try one of those God based H.G. Wells quotes...

Ahh, okay?

Quote from:  H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds
“Be a man!... What good is religion if it collapses under calamity? Think of what earthquakes and floods, wars and volcanoes, have done before to men! Did you think that God had exempted [us]? He is not an insurance agent.”

Do I get two for two or does it only count when I give the chapter and verse?

Huh?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #408 on: January 05, 2014, 04:36:24 PM »
Harbinger, please learn to quote properly. It is getting quite hard to follow what you say.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #409 on: January 05, 2014, 05:05:02 PM »

yeah that's a nice try. The entire post is outside of my theology.. In fact I said I agree with it the way it was written. why do I need to dispute what I agree with? Are you really asking me to state what I do believe... Again?

This is a terrible analogy... Here goes...
I buy a candy bar. I give it to you because I want to. It's a gift we all agree so far.
Someone said something about the number of people I don't give it to. You assume they want it? I propose they don't. It's still a gift to the one who I did give it to anyway. We all know the candy bar is salvation right? The question is do they want the candy bar? Do YOU want the candy bar? Am I jerk if I don't give you something you don't even want? Am I jerk if I make you take it anyway?
I propose God created the gifted one in such a way that he/she will want the candy bar at some point.
When the price was paid all who would ever want it received it. even before birth. Nothing you did or didn't do effects this.
This is not to say none of you unbelievers can't or don't have it. Just that currently you are not acting in it one day you just might... I can't say it's not for me to know your destiny.
by being created in such a way. Your free will is negated. You can't choose the candy bar I choose who I give it to. free will... not concerning salvation.

Bolded: If it is something the person is allergic to and you know it, then yes and yes.

You left out the most important bit. You claim it goes against your theology, but this is integral to the whole concept of salvation.

Before you offer that candy bar, you claim that after I accept it and eat of it, I'll live forever, but if I refuse to accept your gift then I shall be locked away, and tortured for all eternity. In fact all those you chose to not offer it to, will also be locked away and tortured for all eternity. Yet you cannot understand why, instead of just believing you and accepting it, I ask for proof.

So, is he a jerk for trying to force it upon me, despite telling me that it's "free?" Yes.

Edit: Forgot an additional integral part of the salvation "gift." Your candy bar is invisible and immaterial. Like giving someone a whole bunch of donut holes. Eh? Thanks?
I'm a bit confused by the allergic thing. maybe the analogy falls in this area. If you were allergic and I did not give you the candy bar then how can I be a jerk?

 You are still outside of my theology.
Integral to my theology is the sovereignty of God.
sov·er·eign·ty /?säv(?)r?nt?/
Noun: 1. Supreme power or authority
2. The authority of a state to govern itself or another state

 Technically there is no before I offer it. For example when your great grandfather was a small child your salvation was either secure or it was something you will never have. Nothing from you. Not even a "decision for Christ" If you were the deciding factor then God is not in sovereign.

I can almost hear you saying but but what about___!
Assuming the blank.... Regeneration happens when at some point the holy spirit acts upon you and at that point and not before you will have a spiritually  different view of your own sin and you will repent and confess with your mouth and whatever else may be your blank. Before the Holy spirit acts you are called blind and dead in sin. Unable to come to God.

I love donut holes... bit sized bliss... mmmm
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #410 on: January 05, 2014, 05:20:24 PM »
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

Can you at least understand that if you have nothing to show, there are good reasons for us not to see it?

And the mom thing? My mom changed my diapers, gave me lunch money before I went to school and in general loved me by, you know, being there when I needed her. I could certainly make her mad by being bad, but no so mad that she'd throw me into the fireplace.

Big difference. Don't try to compare the two. Your god will lose every time.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #411 on: January 05, 2014, 05:20:34 PM »
Quote
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

1. Love of one's mother is subject to more than the invisible. For one thing one can actually see and interact with one's mother. Then there are tokens of affection passed betwen a person and their mother - gits, actions ect. So whilst the actual emotion of love could only be detected with an fMRI scanner the whole context is of real interactions.

2. Anything to do with gods and salvation is not subject to anything physical at all and, if it has any effect on a person it is the effect the brain imposes on itself. Don't forget the sub-conscious brain does a whole pile of things without saying and merely signals to the conscious brain occasionally when its results are available, Apart from the head of the believer there is, only, an ancient book. There is not historical case for anything else.

Clearly your analogy is completely useless here. A better analogy would be for you to write and insult on a piece of paper about a person you have never seen and never met in Australia and then to ask that person, in your head only, to forgive you. Even that fails as you know there is a such a person in Australia whereas you have not evidence for a god at all.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #412 on: January 05, 2014, 05:23:20 PM »
By the way, Harbinger, if your god can't provide consistency across individuals, then you have no reason to be surprised about the variation in religious temperaments and susceptibility.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #413 on: January 05, 2014, 05:37:04 PM »
Harbinger, please learn to quote properly. It is getting quite hard to follow what you say.

I've addressed this before...
No. I will not pull out of the context. I feel that I do the previous poster more justice this way. I could use that quote function and quote the first line or so of a paragraph and then the last line or so and make you say something you never said for example. This way everyone stays honest.

What we have going here is essentially 2-3 now 4 conversations at once. That's why it's hard to follow. I'm not sure if it's an actual tactic but it does make it hard to answer questions and easy to be distracted. I would use this as a case point to the thread "why can't a theist answer a direct question" also this one is VERY mild... but it's an example of what I've called "verbal rape" as well.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #414 on: January 05, 2014, 05:44:27 PM »
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

Can you at least understand that if you have nothing to show, there are good reasons for us not to see it?

And the mom thing? My mom changed my diapers, gave me lunch money before I went to school and in general loved me by, you know, being there when I needed her. I could certainly make her mad by being bad, but no so mad that she'd throw me into the fireplace.

Big difference. Don't try to compare the two. Your god will lose every time.

I thought you may become defensive but I took a chance figuring you love mom... yet can't provide proof of it. The focus was love NOT mom... However, if your mom hated you... she just might throw you in the fireplace.. just sayin
Rom9:13.. :/
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #415 on: January 05, 2014, 05:49:57 PM »
Harbinger, please learn to quote properly. It is getting quite hard to follow what you say.

I've addressed this before...
No. I will not pull out of the context. I feel that I do the previous poster more justice this way. I could use that quote function and quote the first line or so of a paragraph and then the last line or so and make you say something you never said for example. This way everyone stays honest.

What we have going here is essentially 2-3 now 4 conversations at once. That's why it's hard to follow. I'm not sure if it's an actual tactic but it does make it hard to answer questions and easy to be distracted. I would use this as a case point to the thread "why can't a theist answer a direct question" also this one is VERY mild... but it's an example of what I've called "verbal rape" as well.

Um, what part of this post of yours (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25342.msg593406.html#msg593406) was new? It looked like quotes from an older one. There is no way for us to tell what you were trying to say if everything is purple. I'll hold your hand and teach you how to quote if you want.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #416 on: January 05, 2014, 05:51:34 PM »
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

Can you at least understand that if you have nothing to show, there are good reasons for us not to see it?

And the mom thing? My mom changed my diapers, gave me lunch money before I went to school and in general loved me by, you know, being there when I needed her. I could certainly make her mad by being bad, but no so mad that she'd throw me into the fireplace.

Big difference. Don't try to compare the two. Your god will lose every time.

I thought you may become defensive but I took a chance figuring you love mom... yet can't provide proof of it. The focus was love NOT mom... However, if your mom hated you... she just might throw you in the fireplace.. just sayin
Rom9:13.. :/

Well, she's a little too dead for me to ask, but since I survived childhood I assume she loved me, plus she gave me an allowance and everything.

My focus was love too, but from actual sources.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #417 on: January 05, 2014, 06:18:35 PM »
By the way, Harbinger, if your god can't provide consistency across individuals, then you have no reason to be surprised about the variation in religious temperaments and susceptibility.

I remember you once said something to me about "god colored glasses" and how they force me to come away from a text with an opposite idea of yours...
The suggestion being the txt is txt the problem lies within the reader of said txt.... We agree
I propose you can read a txt in two ways:
1: proof of my idea no matter how I bend the txt.
2: form an idea based on the txt available.
I think #2 is much more valid than #1. Some Christians read into the txt what they WANT to believe. The same as my "god colored glasses" may do. what ever the language used we agree on the concept.
How is the Bible to Blame for improper exegesis or hermeneutics?
Considering the concept of false profession, How can you blame God himself?
Aside from this who said his true people don't all carry the same truth?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 06:40:29 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #418 on: January 05, 2014, 06:28:50 PM »
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

Can you at least understand that if you have nothing to show, there are good reasons for us not to see it?

And the mom thing? My mom changed my diapers, gave me lunch money before I went to school and in general loved me by, you know, being there when I needed her. I could certainly make her mad by being bad, but no so mad that she'd throw me into the fireplace.

Big difference. Don't try to compare the two. Your god will lose every time.

I thought you may become defensive but I took a chance figuring you love mom... yet can't provide proof of it. The focus was love NOT mom... However, if your mom hated you... she just might throw you in the fireplace.. just sayin
Rom9:13.. :/

Well, she's a little too dead for me to ask, but since I survived childhood I assume she loved me, plus she gave me an allowance and everything.

My focus was love too, but from actual sources.

Did I not use an "actual source" to explain Love?
The actions you listed are valid to submit as proof if that was the intention. Yet not conclusive. maybe some mothers do all those things from  sense of duty rather than love. They also speak nothing for the so called "love" of the child towards the mother.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #419 on: January 05, 2014, 06:30:46 PM »
By the way, Harbinger, if your god can't provide consistency across individuals, then you have no reason to be surprised about the variation in religious temperaments and susceptibility.

I remember you once said something to me about "god colored glasses" and how they force me to come away from a text with an opposite idea of yours...
The suggestion being the txt is txt the problem lies within the reader of said txt.... We agree
I propose you can read a txt in two ways:
1: proof of my idea no matter how I bend the txt.
2: form an idea based on the txt available.
I think #2 is much more valid than #1. Some Christians read into the txt what they WANT to believe. The same as my "god colored glasses" may do. what ever the language used we agree on the concept.
How is the Bible to Blame for improper exegesis or hermeneutics?
Considering the concept of false profession, How can you blame God himself?

Are you another one of those theists who think we atheists actually blame things on your god? Or any god?

And I'm pretty sure we need to give someone else the credit for "god colored glasses". Actually, nobody on the site has used that term since 2011. Which, of course, is a major oversight on our part.

Of course your problem is that I read your txt as false, no matter what it says. Because when I read it assuming it was true, it made no sense anyway. And I need more proof than a book to be able to believe said book.

Your job here is not a simple one. You might go ahead and spell out all the words if you're going to try getting your point across.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #420 on: January 05, 2014, 06:32:00 PM »
Did I not use an "actual source" to explain Love?
The actions you listed are valid to submit as proof if that was the intention. Yet not conclusive. maybe some mothers do all those things from  sense of duty rather than love. They also speak nothing for the so called "love" of the child towards the mother.

No, you didn't use an actual source. You attributed it to your god.

I'm an atheist. Why would you ask such a silly question.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #421 on: January 05, 2014, 06:58:48 PM »
Did I not use an "actual source" to explain Love?
The actions you listed are valid to submit as proof if that was the intention. Yet not conclusive. maybe some mothers do all those things from  sense of duty rather than love. They also speak nothing for the so called "love" of the child towards the mother.

No, you didn't use an actual source. You attributed it to your god.

I'm an atheist. Why would you ask such a silly question.
Noooo.... let me try again..
I am saved. I know it. Can I prove it? No, but I Know I am. That is MY proof of God.

Love is something you know is there. Can you prove it's there? no, you can't show it to me. It's YOUR evidence of Love.

I'm attempting to use a concept you do understand to explain one you don't.

What did I attribute to your God?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #422 on: January 05, 2014, 07:02:36 PM »
There is no fear of god in science no more than there's a fear of Pegasus in math, or a fear of hobgoblins in chemistry. Science is the concept that you are attempting to model reality and checking that model through experimentation. That's it.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #423 on: January 05, 2014, 07:03:17 PM »
By the way, Harbinger, if your god can't provide consistency across individuals, then you have no reason to be surprised about the variation in religious temperaments and susceptibility.

I remember you once said something to me about "god colored glasses" and how they force me to come away from a text with an opposite idea of yours...
The suggestion being the txt is txt the problem lies within the reader of said txt.... We agree
I propose you can read a txt in two ways:
1: proof of my idea no matter how I bend the txt.
2: form an idea based on the txt available.
I think #2 is much more valid than #1. Some Christians read into the txt what they WANT to believe. The same as my "god colored glasses" may do. what ever the language used we agree on the concept.
How is the Bible to Blame for improper exegesis or hermeneutics?
Considering the concept of false profession, How can you blame God himself?

Are you another one of those theists who think we atheists actually blame things on your god? Or any god?

And I'm pretty sure we need to give someone else the credit for "god colored glasses". Actually, nobody on the site has used that term since 2011. Which, of course, is a major oversight on our part.

Of course your problem is that I read your txt as false, no matter what it says. Because when I read it assuming it was true, it made no sense anyway. And I need more proof than a book to be able to believe said book.

Your job here is not a simple one. You might go ahead and spell out all the words if you're going to try getting your point across.

Is your thinker broken today parking places or is it say anything as long as you don't agree on even  a secular concept with a theist? IfGod was not the object of blame in the following quote who or what is?

By the way, Harbinger, if your god can't provide consistency across individuals, then you have no reason to be surprised about the variation in religious temperaments and susceptibility.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Online One Above All

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #424 on: January 05, 2014, 07:31:52 PM »
This may all well be true. I don't agree though. neither of us can determine that the rejections  were ALL or even mostly theists.

Why would an atheist say someone was wrong for attempting to challenge what the Bible says? Why would an atheist say that scientists were "playing god"?

None the less You are trying to apply it to all theists everywhere. That is simply not true. That's the flaw in your logic.

Well, one of us has memory issues, because I clearly remember saying it was a hyperbole.

This is the same strawman that suggest all war is born of religion.

I remember going to a simulation of the UN in my country, and the main reason cited for every violent conflict was, invariably, religion.

God of the gaps is an atheist idea that is also faulty.

Really? Pray tell, how is "Well, you don't know that, so it must be (my) god!" not a god of the gaps fallacy?

You imply that christian science starts in a diffrent place I agree and it's not relevant.

Which clearly indicates you know nothing about the scientific method.

You say they ignore evidence that is contrary and also form no theories.
which you killed by the mention of the grand canyon theory.

Whoa, I don't remember saying they don't form theories (as defined by you and others like you who have no idea what "theory" means). Just not scientific ones.

You seem to suggest the scientific method used by these scientists is fundamentally different. Can you support this claim?

They don't use the scientific method. That's the whole problem. Again, you demonstrate you don't know the scientific method.

Are you suggesting it's not even possible for a secular scientist to avoid something because it didn't fit his theory? Isn't a hypothesis rather secular or Christian a preconceived idea that one wishes to proov?

"A true scientist is happy when he is proven wrong, for it is when he is wrong that he learns."
-One

  And since you mention the grand canyon I'll go with that one. Have you objectively looked into the theory proposed by christian science and rejected it based on that evidence or did you reject it because it's called christian?

I rejected it because it doesn't match with the evidence.

If that's the case why do you condemn the christian scientist for being close minded while you do the same?

I'm not close-minded. I just have a bullshit filter.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #425 on: January 05, 2014, 11:04:51 PM »

I'm a bit confused by the allergic thing. maybe the analogy falls in this area. If you were allergic and I did not give you the candy bar then how can I be a jerk?

I stated if you knew they were allergic to it and offered it... any other situation regarding that particular point is not what I was addressing. It was more of a tongue-in-cheek than anything else.

You are still outside of my theology.
Integral to my theology is the sovereignty of God.
sov·er·eign·ty /?säv(?)r?nt?/
Noun: 1. Supreme power or authority
2. The authority of a state to govern itself or another state

 Technically there is no before I offer it. For example when your great grandfather was a small child your salvation was either secure or it was something you will never have. Nothing from you. Not even a "decision for Christ" If you were the deciding factor then God is not in sovereign.


 "Accept this gift of salvation and go to heaven, refuse and go to Hell forever?" Yes, This is an INTEGRAL part of your Theology! It's part of the damn sales pitch!

I can almost hear you saying but but what about___!
Assuming the blank.... Regeneration happens when at some point the holy spirit acts upon you and at that point and not before you will have a spiritually  different view of your own sin and you will repent and confess with your mouth and whatever else may be your blank. Before the Holy spirit acts you are called blind and dead in sin. Unable to come to God.

I was a Christian once. It was just a simulacrum.

I love donut holes... bit sized bliss... mmmm
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind.

Christian "faith" is simply a naieve-lovey-dovey word for gullible. So, yes it is blind. I have faith in chairs, cars, airplanes. I have faith in people who have proven they can be trusted. I can sit down and appear I'm sitting on an invisible, immaterial chair, but I'm not going to put my faith in it and shift my weight off of my feet.

Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

Love is an emotional state regulated by hormones. Like anger, people under emotional states do not remember situations accurately as thier perceptions are skewed. Someone you love is in the perfect spot to hurt you more than anyone else, and each person betayed thought the last person in the world that could/would hurt them, is the one they loved. Yes, you feel like you love them, and you "feel" that they love you too. This is the case regardless whether they love or even give a  flip about you, ie unrequited love.

Personal feelings aren't evidence of anything except that you feel it.

"Just because you hope, wish, dream, pray, feel, desire something to be true, doesn't make it so." - Muary during a DNA test episode.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #426 on: January 05, 2014, 11:25:20 PM »
"Accept this gift of salvation and go to heaven, refuse and go to Hell forever?" Yes, This is an INTEGRAL part of your Theology! It's part of the damn sales pitch!

To make matters worse, the gift is apparently not noticeable to human senses, so you never know who has it, and who is destined to hell.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #427 on: January 06, 2014, 12:52:58 AM »
I'm not sure if it's an actual tactic but it does make it hard to answer questions and easy to be distracted. I would use this as a case point to the thread "why can't a theist answer a direct question" also this one is VERY mild... but it's an example of what I've called "verbal rape" as well.

Because being forced to experience a penis, fist, or other object forced into one's vagina or rectum against his or her will, and burdened to emotionally relive the vulnerability and trauma of the event is just like feeling uncomfortable for volunteering to defend an indefensible and irrational belief system on a forum from which you can just. walk. away.


« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 01:42:38 AM by albeto »

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #428 on: January 06, 2014, 03:34:03 AM »
A Christian's salvation may be "invisible" in the sense I can't pull it out and show you... but I assure you it's there. Faith is not blind. Like love you can't see it yet you know it's there. Is loving your mother something that you feel and know it's there or do you yourself need to see your action before you know you love mom?

Can you at least understand that if you have nothing to show, there are good reasons for us not to see it?

And the mom thing? My mom changed my diapers, gave me lunch money before I went to school and in general loved me by, you know, being there when I needed her. I could certainly make her mad by being bad, but no so mad that she'd throw me into the fireplace.

Big difference. Don't try to compare the two. Your god will lose every time.

I thought you may become defensive but I took a chance figuring you love mom... yet can't provide proof of it. The focus was love NOT mom... However, if your mom hated you... she just might throw you in the fireplace.. just sayin
Rom9:13.. :/

Well, she's a little too dead for me to ask, but since I survived childhood I assume she loved me, plus she gave me an allowance and everything.

My focus was love too, but from actual sources.

Did I not use an "actual source" to explain Love?
The actions you listed are valid to submit as proof if that was the intention. Yet not conclusive. maybe some mothers do all those things from  sense of duty rather than love. They also speak nothing for the so called "love" of the child towards the mother.

If you want a demonstration of 'love' you are only ever going to get it by looking at the actions of the participants. Where the mother differs from  god in these analogies is that with a relationship with a god we only have one side of the problem - only one participant. Where a mother is concerned we have both participants. Given your inability to demonstrate the existence of god we might well conclude that god is imaginary in which case there is no relationship at all.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #429 on: January 06, 2014, 12:18:30 PM »
I am saved. I know it. Can I prove it? No, but I Know I am. That is MY proof of God.

Then you don't know it.  You only think it and feel a large degree of (unjustified) certainty about it. It is no more proof of god than it is proof my balls weigh 100 lbs. (they don't.)  That you believe something is only proof that you believe something.  In this case, it is also proof of poor reasoning skills.

Love is something you know is there. Can you prove it's there? no, you can't show it to me. It's YOUR evidence of Love.

Apples and oranges.

Love is an emotion.  god, xians claim, is an actual existential being.  You may close your eyes and examine your feelings to know what emotion you are feeling.  You may not close your eyes and examine your feelings to know whether a being actually exists. 

Your comparison is invalid.


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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #430 on: January 06, 2014, 02:11:44 PM »
Is your thinker broken today parking places or is it say anything as long as you don't agree on even  a secular concept with a theist? IfGod was not the object of blame in the following quote who or what is?

By the way, Harbinger, if your god can't provide consistency across individuals, then you have no reason to be surprised about the variation in religious temperaments and susceptibility.

Um, the people who claim there is a god are at the reasons there is so much variation, even within one religion. Not the non-existent god. It is the people who can't provide the consistency, not the god figure.

You want me to agree to a definition of god or a definition of love and to do so, you have to keep both mysterious enough that the best we can do is agree on a generic term or two.

Love may be ethereal, just like your god, but at least it can be experienced, won, lost and/or missing. Tests for its validity can be established ("Daddy beats the crap out of me every day, he must not love me" or "My wife must love me, she's put up with me for 40 years and still smiles when I come home, plus she's never poisoned the cookies.")

People mess love up all the time, but they usually know it because they get feedback. Breakups, divorces, never being spoken to again, etc. You can do whatever the heck you want with the god thingy and never know if you got it right because the only feedback mechanism available is from the same imagination that conjured him up in the first place. Which doesn't count.

As screwtape said, you can only think that you know that you've been saved. Because, by your own (and all other christians) admission, everything has to be done via the vehicle of faith. Which, no matter how much you love it, is never visible, never touchable, never experienced directly.

You think you're in a Ferrari, while we see a guy sitting in the middle of the road, saying "vroom, vroom, vroom".  Sadly, we also see that you're not alone. A lot of others are sitting in the middle of the same road, making the same noises, and thinking too that they have it all figured out.

And our biggest shortcoming, on the other hand, is that we haven't yet figured out how to get the truth across to all of you yet. But thanks for helping us try.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #431 on: January 06, 2014, 03:19:22 PM »
I've addressed this before...
No. I will not pull out of the context. I feel that I do the previous poster more justice this way. I could use that quote function and quote the first line or so of a paragraph and then the last line or so and make you say something you never said for example. This way everyone stays honest.
That's not what he's saying.  The problem is that you're still making mistakes in quoting, specifically here:  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25342.msg593406.html#msg593406.  I can't even tell if you actually responded there, let alone what you said.  What it looks like is you quoted Angus and then simply hit the Post button without typing anything of your own.

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #432 on: January 06, 2014, 09:54:44 PM »
And I'm pretty sure we need to give someone else the credit for "god colored glasses". Actually, nobody on the site has used that term since 2011. Which, of course, is a major oversight on our part.

If you mean this:

I wonder, I really do, if you are not wearing Jesus-powered rose-coloured glasses, when you read the same information that we do?

then I'm happy to place it in the public domain.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #433 on: January 06, 2014, 10:46:42 PM »
I am not afraid of god. God knows where I live and can come get me anytime he decides to man up and try it. However, I am very afraid of some of his followers-- crazy violent people who shoot girls in the head for going to school, who fly planes into buildings, who blow up medical facilities and who drown their kids in bathtubs. God's followers can scare the beJupiter out of me.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #434 on: January 06, 2014, 11:13:24 PM »
And I'm pretty sure we need to give someone else the credit for "god colored glasses". Actually, nobody on the site has used that term since 2011. Which, of course, is a major oversight on our part.

If you mean this:

I wonder, I really do, if you are not wearing Jesus-powered rose-coloured glasses, when you read the same information that we do?

then I'm happy to place it in the public domain.

I picked it up off Matt Dilahunte.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.