Author Topic: Why are scientists afraid of god?  (Read 13151 times)

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #261 on: December 26, 2013, 04:02:05 AM »
Being that many theists claim that the bibles predictions proves it correct.

I predict that Harbinger will be incapable of producing such documentation.

If such prediction is correct, i self proclaim myself...go- ....no one.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #262 on: December 26, 2013, 11:26:00 PM »
In order to be called doctor you have to have a doctorate, in this case she has a doctorate of philosophy (PhD).
If you're going to use a site as a source, always, always, ALWAYS, read it. Never post an article you haven't read, now you have egg on your face.
Always, always, ALWAYS remember I am NOT trying to impress you.

Reading an article is the first thing any sensible person trying to further their argument would do, the need to impress someone shouldn't be a motivator.

It's a good thing I wasn't expecting you to impress me, I want you to be honest, and provide documentation for the precise incident you put forth, if you can't, then say "I don't have documentation for it." That's all I'm asking. You're quickly losing all credibility.
But how many times do i have to say it?? Maybe if I keep it REALLY simple this time?

CF...
I don't have it.
 Can't even get it. Wouldn't even ask.

mitral and Tricuspid regurgitation...
 I could get it.. but to what end? Your answer would be a reflection of what parking places already said.
I don't have it.

GERD...
I never went back to confirm it's gone. There's no need for it.
I don't have it

I think this is the 3rd time I have said this. I've never even made different claim.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #263 on: December 26, 2013, 11:35:42 PM »
If you cannot prove it, retract your claim that god healed you.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #264 on: December 26, 2013, 11:37:21 PM »
Harbinger, you never once directly said that you didn't have documentation, you skirted the issue, but that is the very FIRST time you said it directly. I can now comfortably disregard your anecdotal testimony as that.

Next time you want to posit miraculous healings, make sure you can get documentation from a reputable secular source, preferably from a peer reviewed journal.

THAT will convince me, not some ravings from a psychologist, nor from a jewelry store. Posting christian sources is obviously going to be disregarded, as the bias is obvious.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #265 on: December 27, 2013, 12:24:33 AM »
If you cannot prove it, retract your claim that god healed you.

To what end?
 Never will I do such non-sense!
7hhI don't care if you believe me or not. It is, and will always be, part of my testimony.
Can't you all be honest with yourselves?
bMy point, as I have always said, is there is NOTHING I could show that someone wouldn't say is fake for one reason or another. Think about it. What type of document would it need to be? What type of delivery system would be required To ensure no tampering? What about signatures or notaries? Why should I bother Jumping through these hoops?
I keep asking this question and more but no one answers...
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #266 on: December 27, 2013, 01:06:54 AM »
I just told you what criteria would meet our satisfaction.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #267 on: December 27, 2013, 02:02:37 AM »
bMy point, as I have always said, is there is NOTHING I could show that someone wouldn't say is fake for one reason or another. Think about it. What type of document would it need to be? What type of delivery system would be required To ensure no tampering? What about signatures or notaries? Why should I bother Jumping through these hoops?

I have already posted my own criteria.

Quote
Perhaps you can find an unbiased scientific website with verifiable evidence of a magical god healing which was going to be 100% fatal, with placebos, other gods prayers and several volunteers?

Just replace website with documentation and you are set.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #268 on: December 27, 2013, 08:44:35 AM »
Harbinger, you never once directly said that you didn't have documentation, you skirted the issue, but that is the very FIRST time you said it directly. I can now comfortably disregard your anecdotal testimony as that.

Next time you want to posit miraculous healings, make sure you can get documentation from a reputable secular source, preferably from a peer reviewed journal.

THAT will convince me, not some ravings from a psychologist, nor from a jewelry store. Posting christian sources is obviously going to be disregarded, as the bias is obvious.
bMy point, as I have always said, is there is NOTHING I could show that someone wouldn't say is fake for one reason or another. Think about it. What type of document would it need to be? What type of delivery system would be required To ensure no tampering? What about signatures or notaries? Why should I bother Jumping through these hoops?

I have already posted my own criteria.

Quote
Perhaps you can find an unbiased scientific website with verifiable evidence of a magical god healing which was going to be 100% fatal, with placebos, other gods prayers and several volunteers?

Just replace website with documentation and you are set.

not quite off topic here but basically you are all saying under almost any topic the deals with believing in God that you won't believe unless he shows himself to you physically but at the least you need sign?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #269 on: December 27, 2013, 09:31:09 AM »


not quite off topic here but basically you are all saying under almost any topic the deals with believing in God that you won't believe unless he shows himself to you physically but at the least you need sign?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Kind of the point, because people lie, people hallucinate, people exaggerate. People convey all sorts of false information, whether by design or by their own credulousness. The further the claim is from what we see as part of our everyday lives, the more cross check, solid, and verifiable it should be in order for someone not to be misled. This includes scientific claims. Take the moon landing for instance . The pictures of the rockets are everywhere , there's thousands of people who worked on the project, banks of computer, those that landed, tv footage, there's even the fact that some of the most powerful laser retro reflectors can pick up the glint off the equipment left behind, the fact the same principles are used for satellites today, the tens of thousands that witnessed the launch, and so forth.

Now if someone said there was a secret moon landing in the 1950s by Canada I would expect extraordinary evidence as well. Evidence that does not exist. I would reject said claim...even though it stands on the exact same scientific principles.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #270 on: December 27, 2013, 09:53:20 PM »
not quite off topic here but basically you are all saying under almost any topic the deals with believing in God that you won't believe unless he shows himself to you physically but at the least you need sign?

I would not require physical contact with a god, but would need physical evidence of god.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #271 on: December 29, 2013, 08:48:07 AM »
I have a bnew signature text I found whilst away for a couple fo days. It says it all. Can you provide evidence of a miracle healing on this basis, Harninger?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #272 on: December 29, 2013, 10:07:08 PM »
I have a bnew signature text I found whilst away for a couple fo days. It says it all. Can you provide evidence of a miracle healing on this basis, Harninger?

I think I could. Again let us be honest.
Lets play pretend for a moment.
 I just submitted scanned documents of medical records that support my claim. I submitted the entire file. Which aside from administrative junk is only two sets of tests. The first showing positive test results and the other showing negative test results. Only two visits with a time span of almost a year.

forgive me if I assume to much, but would you not claim missing documents that if included would show the treatment process? Not that there is one except surgery. The assumption based on the fact that The two cardiograms were almost a year apart? would this not be the claim no matter how you were able to view the documents? would you not also claim this if you were able to obtain the entire file for yourself? The blame being on the office not myself in that case. Would you not claim treatment or surgery must have happened at another office placing me in a position to produce something that doesn't exist? Would you not need to examine the patient to see there are no scars for me to prove there are no surgical documents to present? actually now that I think of that aspect... Angioplasty is done with a tiny incision in the thigh. This could heal in a way that the scar wouldn't be seen. Wouldn't that give you an out for surgical possibility even with physical inspection? (I have no idea how surgery to repair tricuspid regergitation  would actually be done. Didn't google it. Not interested)

Lets say that not only was I willing to jump through these hoops but I actually did it. Every one of them. This hinges on something that doesn't exist. The claim of no treatment. There would be no documents to support something that never happened. Also the claim of no lifestyle change. That would not be documented either way. Would the lack of documentation not give room for doubt therefore the mind quick to dismiss it as hogwash would do so? Or perhaps my shear willingness to jump through these hoops is proof that it must be true and that I've been nothing but forthcoming?

 I think i've covered from start to finish how this would go down.

 I still ask to what end should I even attempt this? Also Once again why would I lie about it? I've presented the facts as they are many times. If I made it up wouldn't it have been seen by now? Who can keep a lie straight this long? Would you or someone not have jumped on my lie or even a perceived contradiction like a bloodhound?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Online xyzzy

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #273 on: December 29, 2013, 11:04:42 PM »
Harbinger77, could you please clarify something.

Are you saying in this example, of which you want comments but you're not going to actually attempt, that your claim would be that the medical records that would have supported your contention just happen to be missing but you can't explain why, and that the only records available are the ones described. Or, are you saying, that those are the only records that there ever were?

Also, is this a description of your actual situation or just an example you are throwing out irrespective of if it actually occurred in practice?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #274 on: December 30, 2013, 12:29:32 AM »
*snip*

Look, it doesn't matter what any file says, but if it doesn't point towards a deity, no one should believe it was a deity that helped.

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #275 on: December 30, 2013, 06:52:21 AM »
Harbinger,

I agree with the comments above. You are not being very clear with this though.

For the heart problem, one would have expected there to be untrasound scans of the heart showing the damage to the valves. In fact a small camera can, these days, be inserted into a vein and the valves imaged. If we had something as conclusoive as that and the same texts done after the supposed claim, one might start to consider your claims. If we are only talking about symptomatic relief, well, a whole range of possibilities open up of which none would suggest a miracle cure.

The problem is that for any condition where there is a problem that cannot be cured we would need -

1. Clear unarguable evidence that the problem was there
2. Clear unarguable evidence that it has gone away
3. The problem would need to be one in which the body wouold never deal with itself - like cancers that go into remission.

Research starts when there are these sorts of evidence.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #276 on: December 30, 2013, 07:42:53 PM »
Harbinger77, could you please clarify something.

Are you saying in this example, of which you want comments but you're not going to actually attempt, that your claim would be that the medical records that would have supported your contention just happen to be missing but you can't explain why, and that the only records available are the ones described. Or, are you saying, that those are the only records that there ever were?

Also, is this a description of your actual situation or just an example you are throwing out irrespective of if it actually occurred in practice?

My apologies. I thought I was being clear Everything I posted is my exact situation. However, I talked to My wife about the details. It seems I did leave something out. I forgot how it started.

 My wife was having breathing problems and was sent to a lung specialist. She performed an EKG and and echocardiogram. She was the first to detect a heart problem, but was unable to diagnose it. She sent my wife to the Heart specialist. The heart specialist then performed a second EKG and echocardiogram. We talked about surgery as the only option and, of course, cutting out smoking. We couldn't afford surgery and my wife never did quite smoking. About a year later my wife was sent back to the Heart specialist there was a 3rd EKG and echocardiogram performed.

And echocardiogram IS an ultrasound of the heart.
http://www.wkhs.com/heart/services/Diagnostic_Tests/Echocardiogram_Cardiac_Ultrasound.aspx

 so there would be two back to back positive EKGs and echocardiograms and then another  set, this time negative, about a year later. and absolutely nothing in between.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #277 on: December 30, 2013, 11:57:10 PM »
So?

Where are they?

Simply saying "there should be these here" is not getting anyone anywhere...
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #278 on: December 31, 2013, 02:12:04 PM »
not quite off topic here but basically you are all saying under almost any topic the deals with believing in God that you won't believe unless he shows himself to you physically but at the least you need sign?

I would not require physical contact with a god, but would need physical evidence of god.

I don't have physical contact with uranium, never have seen uranium with my own two eyes. None the less I believe it exists. Why? Because it's description is in concrete terms that doesn't vary from culture to culture and is testable.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #279 on: January 01, 2014, 12:51:46 AM »
I don't have physical contact with uranium, never have seen uranium with my own two eyes. None the less I believe it exists. Why? Because it's description is in concrete terms that doesn't vary from culture to culture and is testable.

Never said i would need physical contact, but i have seen uranium with my eyes, know what is does, etc. ;D
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #280 on: January 01, 2014, 12:27:41 PM »

My father told me tonight that scientists are afraid to admit that there is a god.
Do you know? Every time I read that, it seems less likely that it is speaking of something that really happened.

Carry on...
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #281 on: January 01, 2014, 12:52:32 PM »

My father told me tonight that scientists are afraid to admit that there is a god.
Do you know? Every time I read that, it seems less likely that it is speaking of something that really happened.

Carry on...

I don't think this is completely impossible. I do doubt it was the complete statement though. I would like to know the context. As a father I'm sure dad went on to explain his position.

that's not why I'm here though. I'm at work right now listening to a theological professor teaching on end times events.

I asked the question about needing a sign. Many indicate they do need a sign. My question is are you familiar with end time prophesy and are you looking for them as they are being fulfilled? Are you listening to what Christians are saying about things being fulfilled in our time? If not. Why not? Would that not be a sign if you saw something come to pass?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #282 on: January 01, 2014, 01:11:22 PM »
Ah, Harbinger, the end times - the times of which only the father knows - is that it? If so, we aren't going to do too well with looking for signs as it is easily possible that god's time runs on a different timescale from ours - unless he is in eternity where there is no time of course. Anyway, what signs ought we to look for that haven't happened before and so are significant. We've been having earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars for the whole of human history so i can't see how they help at all. In fact, they sound more like something an astrologer would add to a prediction to keep you guessing.

So, seriously, what should we be looking out for and whjy do you suppose the an 'end times' are more likley now that the 1st century or the 3,000th century?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #283 on: January 01, 2014, 11:21:11 PM »
Ah, Harbinger, the end times - the times of which only the father knows - is that it? If so, we aren't going to do too well with looking for signs as it is easily possible that god's time runs on a different timescale from ours - unless he is in eternity where there is no time of course. Anyway, what signs ought we to look for that haven't happened before and so are significant. We've been having earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars for the whole of human history so i can't see how they help at all. In fact, they sound more like something an astrologer would add to a prediction to keep you guessing.

So, seriously, what should we be looking out for and whjy do you suppose the an 'end times' are more likley now that the 1st century or the 3,000th century?

So your personal answer is no, you don't?
Sermon on the mount is a fun place to start.
Mark13:32
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the
Son, but the Father.
This is true as you say. 
The parable of the fig tree teaches we can know when it's close though.

mark13:28-31
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye
know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know
that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.


mark13:6-8
 6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and shall deceive many. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be;
but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Note: beginnings of

 fake Jesus.. David koresh and Charles Manson. come to mind but José Luis de Jesús he's worth looking at.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Luis_de_Jesús
aside from Him google false messiah there have been and are currently quite a few.

You mentioned earthquakes. That's an interesting subject on it's own. We expect not only the magnatudes will get stronger, they will be more frequent, and the locations will be places unexpected.
We have in fact had a huge spike in activity
http://www.earth.webecs.co.uk/

I live in north Tx. This is close to home for me
New york times Dec, 12 2013
with a yearly average of about 50 tremors, almost all of them minor. But in the past three years, the state [Oklahoma] has had thousands of quakes. This year has been the most active, with more than 2,600 so far, including 87 last week.
(They blame gas and oil fracking, But Jesus never claimed cause only that it would happen)

I would advise Revelation and Danial. They go together. Once you understand the symbolism it's easy to see how it could be right around the corner.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #284 on: January 01, 2014, 11:37:56 PM »
The world ain't ending "around the corner".

I can see within 1000 years due to war, caused by resource shortages, but that is it.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #285 on: January 01, 2014, 11:57:17 PM »
Ah, Harbinger, the end times - the times of which only the father knows - is that it? If so, we aren't going to do too well with looking for signs as it is easily possible that god's time runs on a different timescale from ours - unless he is in eternity where there is no time of course. Anyway, what signs ought we to look for that haven't happened before and so are significant. We've been having earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars for the whole of human history so i can't see how they help at all. In fact, they sound more like something an astrologer would add to a prediction to keep you guessing.

So, seriously, what should we be looking out for and whjy do you suppose the an 'end times' are more likley now that the 1st century or the 3,000th century?

For got your second question...
technology required is only just getting here some is still in the works. Israel has only been established since the end of WWII and signs in the stars.

This guy makes a case for the rapture. not the  point though. He also makes a good case for the tribulation using scripture and astronomy. Kind of long but worth the watch I think.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QW17ZP0shv0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQW17ZP0shv0
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 12:04:00 AM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #286 on: January 02, 2014, 12:06:24 AM »
The world ain't ending "around the corner".

I can see within 1000 years due to war, caused by resource shortages, but that is it.

Is it safe to assume that your answer to my question, post #281, is also no?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #287 on: January 02, 2014, 12:08:14 AM »
Hey, Harbinger, I've got some bad news, and some really bad news.

Earthquakes appear to be increasing, but in fact the number of reported earthquakes is going up because of the constantly increasing number of seismographs being installed around the world. The number that is getting larger is of those little tiny ones like in OK. The ones that are harder to detect if you don't have a seismograph close by.

Now for the really bad news. This is what I tell every Christian who tells me that the end times are coming.

I hope that you live a long and prosperous life. But at the end of your life, you will notice that Jesus hasn't returned. You'll have been expecting him for years, but he won't have shown up. And you'll wonder why not. And not only will you wonder why not, you'll wonder how an atheist knew back in 2014 that he wouldn't return in your life time.

Of course, right now you know I'm wrong, so make sure you tell all your kids and laugh about what the silly atheist said. But Jesus won't return in their lifetimes either, nor in the lifetimes of your grandchildren or great grandchildren. If you do laugh about it now, and he doesn't come back in your lifetime, your children and grandchildren might remember the story and wonder why he didn't come back during their lives either. And wonder how an atheist knew it wouldn't happen.

So you've been told. Do with it as you wish.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #288 on: January 02, 2014, 12:17:24 AM »
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My question is are you familiar with end time prophesy and are you looking for them as they are being fulfilled?

Answer: Nope.
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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #289 on: January 02, 2014, 12:39:12 AM »
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My question is are you familiar with end time prophesy and are you looking for them as they are being fulfilled?

Answer: Nope.

Hey, and even that is too much information. Man, if there is anything I wish I knew nothing about, it is that end-times junk. So many times in my life folks have come up with definite dates. Needless to say, none of them ever happened. But that doesn't stop others from trying to come up with the ams sort of thing. Its like they think that being determined will actually make it happen.

And the answer to that question is the same. Nope.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.