Author Topic: Why are scientists afraid of god?  (Read 13934 times)

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Online SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #174 on: December 18, 2013, 11:27:32 AM »
Well this raises the old Epicurius dilemma! It seems to me that the 3 omni god ought to be able to heal, ought to want to heal and have the power to heal. If any of those are missing, well.... what do you call him?

I'd say,.... IMAGINARY!
Bah.  This is easily addressed.  You might want to put a helmet on so that it doesn't make a mess when I blow your mind:

MYSTERIOUS WAYS

I can imagine the worldwide press conference now by scientists.


Scientist: "Well its official, we in the scientific community have discovered and confirmed MYSTERIOUS WAYS.  Everyone can stop trying to understand anything as we now know that MYSTERIOUS WAYS is the answer.  Any questions can be answered as MYSTERIOUS WAYS.  So there will be no Q and A for this press conferance.  Thank you and good night!"
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #175 on: December 18, 2013, 01:29:29 PM »
My response?  "Mysterious ways" is just an excuse to avoid having to explain anything.  Cause and effect can sometimes be mysterious, so does that mean when we can't immediately discern a cause-effect relationship, that we should assume that it's mysterious and leave it at that?  Of course not.  Same goes with other things we don't immediately understand.

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #176 on: December 18, 2013, 01:48:11 PM »
My response?  "Mysterious ways" is just an excuse to avoid having to explain anything.  Cause and effect can sometimes be mysterious, so does that mean when we can't immediately discern a cause-effect relationship, that we should assume that it's mysterious and leave it at that?  Of course not.  Same goes with other things we don't immediately understand.

Indeed. But isn't it fascinating that in religion "mystery" is an acceptable answer, and a thought stopping one at that. Yet, outside of that influence, "mystery" can become a catalyst to exploration, discovery, and knowledge?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #177 on: December 18, 2013, 02:07:00 PM »
My response?  "Mysterious ways" is just an excuse to avoid having to explain anything.  Cause and effect can sometimes be mysterious, so does that mean when we can't immediately discern a cause-effect relationship, that we should assume that it's mysterious and leave it at that?  Of course not.  Same goes with other things we don't immediately understand.

Indeed. But isn't it fascinating that in religion "mystery" is an acceptable answer, and a thought stopping one at that. Yet, outside of that influence, "mystery" can become a catalyst to exploration, discovery, and knowledge?

Let's be fair; there's a lot of theist literature talking about those 'mysterious ways' and trying to explain them. Heck pretty much ALL theist literature is about that. So just to say it is "thought stopping" isn't accurate and is actually a straw man.

I liken it to the invention of electric light. It was discovered that running a current though an exposed wire caused it to glow. However, said glowing wire would quickly oxidize and melt. Much thought was put into what wattage, thickness, and alloy could still acheive the glow without the short lived aspect. Nothing worked.

That is until someone came up with the concept of putting the wire in a vacuum so it wouldn't oxidize that any progress was made.

In this analogy 'God' is air. The writings of Theists on the Mysterious ways are the equvalent of someone still working on electric light based on wire glow...but not bothering about vacuum because they insist there's something wrong with concept of 'no air.'










 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline xyzzy

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #178 on: December 18, 2013, 02:22:47 PM »
Let's be fair; there's a lot of theist literature talking about those 'mysterious ways' and trying to explain them. Heck pretty much ALL theist literature is about that. So just to say it is "thought stopping" isn't accurate and is actually a straw man.

It's good to be corrected. I've not come across anything that didn't try to resolve a mystery with a mystery. Could you please point at some that you think are better reads than others?
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #179 on: December 18, 2013, 03:42:34 PM »
Let's be fair; there's a lot of theist literature talking about those 'mysterious ways' and trying to explain them. Heck pretty much ALL theist literature is about that. So just to say it is "thought stopping" isn't accurate and is actually a straw man.

It's good to be corrected. I've not come across anything that didn't try to resolve a mystery with a mystery. Could you please point at some that you think are better reads than others?

They are really just obfucations and wonderings about the possible nature of the Emperors New Robes, really. Descarte and Kant make some valient efforts, but.....
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #180 on: December 18, 2013, 04:56:23 PM »
Whoa, whoa, whoa--- screech to a halt! Did harbinger just tell us that god healed his wife and his health problems, but neither of them were able to get god to help them follow the doctor's simple instructions about smoking, exercise and diet? These folks have a hotline to god--and are addicted to greasy foods and cancer-causing ciggies?

Now I am nobody's perfect example; I struggle with health problems and carry the extra pounds like the other 60% of overweight Americans. But hell, do I go around claiming to be best buds with the creator of the universe? I admit that I have to do it all on my own, the diet and the exercise, and it is not easy.

So, what about this makes sense?  :?



Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #181 on: December 22, 2013, 07:38:11 PM »
Whoa, whoa, whoa--- screech to a halt! Did harbinger just tell us that god healed his wife and his health problems, but neither of them were able to get god to help them follow the doctor's simple instructions about smoking, exercise and diet? These folks have a hotline to god--and are addicted to greasy foods and cancer-causing ciggies?

Now I am nobody's perfect example; I struggle with health problems and carry the extra pounds like the other 60% of overweight Americans. But hell, do I go around claiming to be best buds with the creator of the universe? I admit that I have to do it all on my own, the diet and the exercise, and it is not easy.

So, what about this makes sense?  :?

That happened a long time ago.. quite a bit of energy has been put into that one...
 we prayed for healing. Not help to eat right and exercise more. I don't expect it to be something you understand. I don't even know what made us worthy of this blessing. It still happened though. Praise God!
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #182 on: December 22, 2013, 07:39:47 PM »
may I suggest the ability to delete my own messed up posts...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 07:41:46 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #183 on: December 22, 2013, 07:46:28 PM »
harbinger77, there is a reason admins disable deleting comments, as an admin myself (not here), I have it disabled because it accomplishes nothing, and is usually done by people who wish to censor themselves. Doing so causes the entire thread to become disjointed and confusing.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #184 on: December 22, 2013, 07:50:22 PM »
may I suggest the ability to delete my own messed up posts...

review carefully prior to hitting 'post'. Even after doing that, you can amend the post for a certain amount of time afterwards, and effectively delete the post by simply typing "post removed".
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #185 on: December 23, 2013, 07:44:45 PM »
Well this raises the old Epicurius dilemma! It seems to me that the 3 omni god ought to be able to heal, ought to want to heal and have the power to heal. If any of those are missing, well.... what do you call him?

I'd say,.... IMAGINARY!
Bah.  This is easily addressed.  You might want to put a helmet on so that it doesn't make a mess when I blow your mind:

MYSTERIOUS WAYS

The Whore of Babylon's name is Mystery. Rev 17:5 That's the reason thier god works in "mysterious ways." Jer 10:1-4 Describes a Christmas tree and later details it being part of worshipping the Babylonian god Baal. Someone did a bait and switch on them, and they never even realized it.

Harbinger, you'd learn all kinds of things about your religion if you'd actally take the inititive, and read the bible cover to cover, instead of only reading the passages you're told to.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 07:47:30 PM by Ivellios »

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #186 on: December 23, 2013, 11:25:42 PM »
Well this raises the old Epicurius dilemma! It seems to me that the 3 omni god ought to be able to heal, ought to want to heal and have the power to heal. If any of those are missing, well.... what do you call him?

I'd say,.... IMAGINARY!
Bah.  This is easily addressed.  You might want to put a helmet on so that it doesn't make a mess when I blow your mind:

MYSTERIOUS WAYS

The Whore of Babylon's name is Mystery. Rev 17:5 That's the reason thier god works in "mysterious ways." Jer 10:1-4 Describes a Christmas tree and later details it being part of worshipping the Babylonian god Baal. Someone did a bait and switch on them, and they never even realized it.

Harbinger, you'd learn all kinds of things about your religion if you'd actally take the inititive, and read the bible cover to cover, instead of only reading the passages you're told to.

Lol... You assume much, sir.

First...
the healing thing. I have addressed it from my own personal life. I've also seen many healed in my church. One of those was cystic fibrosis. Not my fault you don't wanna believe that either.

second...
That's the reason I don't have a christmas tree. I don't even celebrate Christmas in any way that you would recognize it. Satan clause is a fat bearded lie and has no place in my home. Yes, I tell my children that too. What we do is more like a birthday party for Jesus. In anticipation, I'll answer your next question. Jesus was more than likely born June 22 give or take. Why Dec 25? Thank the UNholy roman empire for that one.

third...
I read and study my bible and all things related daily. I have read it cover to cover. I took that initiative long ago.

I've amassed a small library since I was saved. that library includes 5 bibles. Not counting the children's bibleS for the kids. Who also read almost daily. Never told asked or even suggested that they should by the way. I also no longer count the one that fell apart from being read and carried to much. I have never counted the KJV with mormon foot notes or the other books that go with it. oh and the HUGE one that belonged to my grandmother.

finally...
The catholic church pushes a false doctrine that only those anointed by God may properly understand the txt. I believe that's because once a catholic reads the Bible they see they are lied to and become protestant. Maybe this is what your "only what you are told to" statement is connected to?

again in anticipation...
I will reject any verse from the new world translation or the NIV. One is JW translation and the other was translated by 3 devil loving humanist witches. I challenge the your default argument of verse comparison amongst the various translations.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #187 on: December 24, 2013, 12:39:29 AM »
Lol... You assume much, sir.

First...
the healing thing. I have addressed it from my own personal life. I've also seen many healed in my church. One of those was cystic fibrosis. Not my fault you don't wanna believe that either.

second...
That's the reason I don't have a christmas tree. I don't even celebrate Christmas in any way that you would recognize it. Satan clause is a fat bearded lie and has no place in my home. Yes, I tell my children that too. What we do is more like a birthday party for Jesus. In anticipation, I'll answer your next question. Jesus was more than likely born June 22 give or take. Why Dec 25? Thank the UNholy roman empire for that one.

third...
I read and study my bible and all things related daily. I have read it cover to cover. I took that initiative long ago.

I've amassed a small library since I was saved. that library includes 5 bibles. Not counting the children's bibleS for the kids. Who also read almost daily. Never told asked or even suggested that they should by the way. I also no longer count the one that fell apart from being read and carried to much. I have never counted the KJV with mormon foot notes or the other books that go with it. oh and the HUGE one that belonged to my grandmother.

finally...
The catholic church pushes a false doctrine that only those anointed by God may properly understand the txt. I believe that's because once a catholic reads the Bible they see they are lied to and become protestant. Maybe this is what your "only what you are told to" statement is connected to?

again in anticipation...
I will reject any verse from the new world translation or the NIV. One is JW translation and the other was translated by 3 devil loving humanist witches. I challenge the your default argument of verse comparison amongst the various translations.

Rejecting specific translations does little to help you, here is the one about the tree from the King James Version:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+10%3A1-4&version=KJV

Feel free to look at the different translations, other than the wording, nothing changes.

It's rich that you accuse him of assuming too much when you yourself, make a massive amount of assumptions, most of the demonstrably wrong.

EDIT: I noticed you mentioned Cystic FibrosisWiki, can you provide documentation on this miraculous recovery? Because surely it would have been all over the news, it's incurable.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 12:44:36 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #188 on: December 24, 2013, 12:41:39 AM »

Lol... You assume much, sir.

First...
the healing thing. I have addressed it from my own personal life. I've also seen many healed in my church. One of those was cystic fibrosis. Not my fault you don't wanna believe that either.

When The Apostles, fearing for thier very lives of spies and false believers ask Jesus how to tell a true believer from a false one, Jesus replies that everyone that believes will be able to, not only perform the same miralcles he did, but ones even greater. Despite all the miraculous healings since Jesus, each and every one has left just as much evidence as if it was done by a charlatan.

second...
That's the reason I don't have a christmas tree. I don't even celebrate Christmas in any way that you would recognize it. Satan clause is a fat bearded lie and has no place in my home. Yes, I tell my children that too. What we do is more like a birthday party for Jesus. In anticipation, I'll answer your next question. Jesus was more than likely born June 22 give or take. Why Dec 25? Thank the UNholy roman empire for that one.

You actually know more than the typical Christian. As per the Birth, I've heard beginning of April to the Feast of Booths, as his birth fufilling God living among his people. Plus, any earlier or later, too cold to be out tending sheep.

third...
I read and study my bible and all things related daily. I have read it cover to cover. I took that initiative long ago.

I've amassed a small library since I was saved. that library includes 5 bibles. Not counting the children's bibleS for the kids. Who also read almost daily. Never told asked or even suggested that they should by the way. I also no longer count the one that fell apart from being read and carried to much. I have never counted the KJV with mormon foot notes or the other books that go with it. oh and the HUGE one that belonged to my grandmother.

Ironic. It was reading the bible that opened my eyes, that it could not possibly come from an All-Knowing, All-Loving God, but superstitious, racist, warmongering, sexist, bronze age goat herders.

finally...
The catholic church pushes a false doctrine that only those anointed by God may properly understand the txt. I believe that's because once a catholic reads the Bible they see they are lied to and become protestant. Maybe this is what your "only what you are told to" statement is connected to?


No. Catholics don't even read the bible. The have a big one out, opened to a page on a stand somewhere in the house, but not read. During mass, they pull out an accessory book and read along from that one that has what the priest says normal font and what the people say in bold. It has a listing of verses that it's supposedly pulled from, but I never swiped one to compare it.

I was raised via two religions depending on which parent had custody at the time. The other was protestant and they do love thier scripture memory and reading thier bible. They state, "We read the entire Bible every X years," and you're expected to take it on faith that that actually happens. It does not. You read 1/2 of a chapter of Jeremiah when he's trapped in that well, after that lesson, then "you've [magically] read all of Jeremiah and Lamentaions." I also noticed other books being missed. 1/2 Exodus, All of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronmy, etc. That's why they bounce around. You expect them to take you there later, but they never do. During service they would have us pull out our bible and read a passage, then continue with the sermon. Since the sermons were so boring, I'd just keep reading. Then I'd hear the pastor take the verse out of context because he would just look at the one verse that supports his stance, ignoring how it's used in the passage. The Chrisistins that I know and grew up with, the only times they open thier bibles is when they're told to by thier minister or the devotional they're using for thier quiet time, read that/those key verse(s) and close it back again.

Those are the types of christians those churches want.

again in anticipation...
I will reject any verse from the new world translation or the NIV. One is JW translation and the other was translated by 3 devil loving humanist witches. I challenge the your default argument of verse comparison amongst the various translations.

Well, I don't believe in a devil, people can be devilish, but an actual devil, no. Do you have problems with black cats and flying broomsticks? There is no such thing as magic. The salem witch trials had nothing to do with witches. Someone said witch about thier political opponents and the ignorant gullible masses believed it and caused a tragedy.

I heard the KJV had King James' edits to promote his agenda and that the NIV was closer to the original manuscripts. Honestly, I have the NIV, 1611 KJV, 1560 Geneva and Student Bible. Honestly, if you get a version that's copyrighted, it's had it's contents changed, that's why copying an entire book or 1,000 words is considered plagerism. After all, "God's word" is open source, no one can copywrite 'his' word and sell for profit.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 12:43:10 AM by Ivellios »

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #189 on: December 24, 2013, 02:05:14 AM »
Lol... You assume much, sir.

First...
the healing thing. I have addressed it from my own personal life. I've also seen many healed in my church. One of those was cystic fibrosis. Not my fault you don't wanna believe that either.

second...
That's the reason I don't have a christmas tree. I don't even celebrate Christmas in any way that you would recognize it. Satan clause is a fat bearded lie and has no place in my home. Yes, I tell my children that too. What we do is more like a birthday party for Jesus. In anticipation, I'll answer your next question. Jesus was more than likely born June 22 give or take. Why Dec 25? Thank the UNholy roman empire for that one.

third...
I read and study my bible and all things related daily. I have read it cover to cover. I took that initiative long ago.

I've amassed a small library since I was saved. that library includes 5 bibles. Not counting the children's bibleS for the kids. Who also read almost daily. Never told asked or even suggested that they should by the way. I also no longer count the one that fell apart from being read and carried to much. I have never counted the KJV with mormon foot notes or the other books that go with it. oh and the HUGE one that belonged to my grandmother.

finally...
The catholic church pushes a false doctrine that only those anointed by God may properly understand the txt. I believe that's because once a catholic reads the Bible they see they are lied to and become protestant. Maybe this is what your "only what you are told to" statement is connected to?

again in anticipation...
I will reject any verse from the new world translation or the NIV. One is JW translation and the other was translated by 3 devil loving humanist witches. I challenge the your default argument of verse comparison amongst the various translations.

Rejecting specific translations does little to help you, here is the one about the tree from the King James Version:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+10%3A1-4&version=KJV

Feel free to look at the different translations, other than the wording, nothing changes.

It's rich that you accuse him of assuming too much when you yourself, make a massive amount of assumptions, most of the demonstrably wrong.

EDIT: I noticed you mentioned Cystic FibrosisWiki, can you provide documentation on this miraculous recovery? Because surely it would have been all over the news, it's incurable.

My stance against Christmas and the christmas tree has NOTHING to do with the version the txt can be found in. Or even really the Bible. The verse in question though did start me exploring the pegan traditions. You missed the point.
As for The various translations I only reject the translators involved as I know one group had an agenda and I have a good enough suspension for the other. For the record, I have read most of the NIV.

As for making assumptions. I made none. please point them out if I did. and the material to prove I'm wrong. I have been here long enough to know the arguments out there. I both anticipated and answered the questions before they were asked to save time. You have demonstrated me correct in the anticipation on 2 counts. One of which I didn't answer, but I will now.

cystic fibrosis... It's not just incurable, it's deadly. I have never mentioned it before because the child in question is not mine so no I can't give documentation. Not a chance.
However, you are still left with the same question you wouldn't touch before. Considering the consequences before my Almighty Father, For what logical reason would I lie about it, or my friend for that matter?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #190 on: December 24, 2013, 02:50:44 AM »
Lol... You assume much, sir.

First...
the healing thing. I have addressed it from my own personal life. I've also seen many healed in my church. One of those was cystic fibrosis. Not my fault you don't wanna believe that either.

second...
That's the reason I don't have a christmas tree. I don't even celebrate Christmas in any way that you would recognize it. Satan clause is a fat bearded lie and has no place in my home. Yes, I tell my children that too. What we do is more like a birthday party for Jesus. In anticipation, I'll answer your next question. Jesus was more than likely born June 22 give or take. Why Dec 25? Thank the UNholy roman empire for that one.

third...
I read and study my bible and all things related daily. I have read it cover to cover. I took that initiative long ago.

I've amassed a small library since I was saved. that library includes 5 bibles. Not counting the children's bibleS for the kids. Who also read almost daily. Never told asked or even suggested that they should by the way. I also no longer count the one that fell apart from being read and carried to much. I have never counted the KJV with mormon foot notes or the other books that go with it. oh and the HUGE one that belonged to my grandmother.

finally...
The catholic church pushes a false doctrine that only those anointed by God may properly understand the txt. I believe that's because once a catholic reads the Bible they see they are lied to and become protestant. Maybe this is what your "only what you are told to" statement is connected to?

again in anticipation...
I will reject any verse from the new world translation or the NIV. One is JW translation and the other was translated by 3 devil loving humanist witches. I challenge the your default argument of verse comparison amongst the various translations.

Rejecting specific translations does little to help you, here is the one about the tree from the King James Version:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+10%3A1-4&version=KJV

Feel free to look at the different translations, other than the wording, nothing changes.

It's rich that you accuse him of assuming too much when you yourself, make a massive amount of assumptions, most of the demonstrably wrong.

EDIT: I noticed you mentioned Cystic FibrosisWiki, can you provide documentation on this miraculous recovery? Because surely it would have been all over the news, it's incurable.

My stance against Christmas and the christmas tree has NOTHING to do with the version the txt can be found in. Or even really the Bible. The verse in question though did start me exploring the pegan traditions. You missed the point.
As for The various translations I only reject the translators involved as I know one group had an agenda and I have a good enough suspension for the other. For the record, I have read most of the NIV.

As for making assumptions. I made none. please point them out if I did. and the material to prove I'm wrong. I have been here long enough to know the arguments out there. I both anticipated and answered the questions before they were asked to save time. You have demonstrated me correct in the anticipation on 2 counts. One of which I didn't answer, but I will now.

cystic fibrosis... It's not just incurable, it's deadly. I have never mentioned it before because the child in question is not mine so no I can't give documentation. Not a chance.
However, you are still left with the same question you wouldn't touch before. Considering the consequences before my Almighty Father, For what logical reason would I lie about it, or my friend for that matter?

The tree was only an example, as to why you would lie? There are plenty of reasons, however I never called you a liar, all I asked for was documentation, as it WOULD be documented if someone is cured of an incurable genetic disorder.

And it's not necessarily deadly, it can be managed. These days, thanks to modern medicine, people with CF are living longer, with the median age in 2009 being observed as mid-30s[1].

EDIT:
The closest thing I could find to corroborate your story is this:
http://www.cbs8.com/story/22409135/local-cystic-fibrosis-treatment-called-a-miracle

And, it doesn't corroborate it at all, for one thing the children are 12 and 7, for another it's recent, and lastly the children are not cured.
 1. http://www.cff.org/aboutcf/faqs/#What_is_the_life_expectancy_for_people_who_have_CF_(in_the_United_States)?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:11:43 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #191 on: December 24, 2013, 03:00:17 AM »
As for making assumptions. I made none. please point them out if I did. and the material to prove I'm wrong. I have been here long enough to know the arguments out there. I both anticipated and answered the questions before they were asked to save time. You have demonstrated me correct in the anticipation on 2 counts. One of which I didn't answer, but I will now.

I decided to handle this in a separate post.

These are your assumptions:
Please use this google url I generated on you for evolution in particular
https://www.google.com/#q=site:whywontgodhealamputees.com+harbinger77+evolution

You assume that people are attacking or patronizing you when you are asked to provide sources for your "information," you never provide them, when pressed you get defensive then try and perform a bait and switch in order to get the attention off your mistake.

You also assume that there is this mass conspiracy in science to completely get rid of a god, when that is NOT the goal of science, you also assume we have "faith" in science, when in reality it's more of a justified confidence. You also assume that we won't fact check you when you decide to post definitions.

Quit assuming, I don't like being made into an ass, and i'm sure you don't either.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #192 on: December 24, 2013, 03:38:22 AM »

Lol... You assume much, sir.

First...
the healing thing. I have addressed it from my own personal life. I've also seen many healed in my church. One of those was cystic fibrosis. Not my fault you don't wanna believe that either.

When The Apostles, fearing for thier very lives of spies and false believers ask Jesus how to tell a true believer from a false one, Jesus replies that everyone that believes will be able to, not only perform the same miralcles he did, but ones even greater. Despite all the miraculous healings since Jesus, each and every one has left just as much evidence as if it was done by a charlatan.

second...
That's the reason I don't have a christmas tree. I don't even celebrate Christmas in any way that you would recognize it. Satan clause is a fat bearded lie and has no place in my home. Yes, I tell my children that too. What we do is more like a birthday party for Jesus. In anticipation, I'll answer your next question. Jesus was more than likely born June 22 give or take. Why Dec 25? Thank the UNholy roman empire for that one.

You actually know more than the typical Christian. As per the Birth, I've heard beginning of April to the Feast of Booths, as his birth fufilling God living among his people. Plus, any earlier or later, too cold to be out tending sheep.

third...
I read and study my bible and all things related daily. I have read it cover to cover. I took that initiative long ago.

I've amassed a small library since I was saved. that library includes 5 bibles. Not counting the children's bibleS for the kids. Who also read almost daily. Never told asked or even suggested that they should by the way. I also no longer count the one that fell apart from being read and carried to much. I have never counted the KJV with mormon foot notes or the other books that go with it. oh and the HUGE one that belonged to my grandmother.

Ironic. It was reading the bible that opened my eyes, that it could not possibly come from an All-Knowing, All-Loving God, but superstitious, racist, warmongering, sexist, bronze age goat herders.

finally...
The catholic church pushes a false doctrine that only those anointed by God may properly understand the txt. I believe that's because once a catholic reads the Bible they see they are lied to and become protestant. Maybe this is what your "only what you are told to" statement is connected to?


No. Catholics don't even read the bible. The have a big one out, opened to a page on a stand somewhere in the house, but not read. During mass, they pull out an accessory book and read along from that one that has what the priest says normal font and what the people say in bold. It has a listing of verses that it's supposedly pulled from, but I never swiped one to compare it.

I was raised via two religions depending on which parent had custody at the time. The other was protestant and they do love thier scripture memory and reading thier bible. They state, "We read the entire Bible every X years," and you're expected to take it on faith that that actually happens. It does not. You read 1/2 of a chapter of Jeremiah when he's trapped in that well, after that lesson, then "you've [magically] read all of Jeremiah and Lamentaions." I also noticed other books being missed. 1/2 Exodus, All of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronmy, etc. That's why they bounce around. You expect them to take you there later, but they never do. During service they would have us pull out our bible and read a passage, then continue with the sermon. Since the sermons were so boring, I'd just keep reading. Then I'd hear the pastor take the verse out of context because he would just look at the one verse that supports his stance, ignoring how it's used in the passage. The Chrisistins that I know and grew up with, the only times they open thier bibles is when they're told to by thier minister or the devotional they're using for thier quiet time, read that/those key verse(s) and close it back again.

Those are the types of christians those churches want.

again in anticipation...
I will reject any verse from the new world translation or the NIV. One is JW translation and the other was translated by 3 devil loving humanist witches. I challenge the your default argument of verse comparison amongst the various translations.

Well, I don't believe in a devil, people can be devilish, but an actual devil, no. Do you have problems with black cats and flying broomsticks? There is no such thing as magic. The salem witch trials had nothing to do with witches. Someone said witch about thier political opponents and the ignorant gullible masses believed it and caused a tragedy.

I heard the KJV had King James' edits to promote his agenda and that the NIV was closer to the original manuscripts. Honestly, I have the NIV, 1611 KJV, 1560 Geneva and Student Bible. Honestly, if you get a version that's copyrighted, it's had it's contents changed, that's why copying an entire book or 1,000 words is considered plagerism. After all, "God's word" is open source, no one can copywrite 'his' word and sell for profit.

thank you. I feel it's kind of rare that I'm not outright attacked. I do appreciate what seems to be a
respectful attitude.
I wish that you would have grown up in only one church. One with proper discipleship and serious bible
study. Serious Christians demonstrating a serious relationship with Jesus. As you point out there was no
church discipline. Your church along with to many others and yes, even my own was/is filled with Lazy
Lukewarm Christians. It drives me crazy! From your description can I guess? Did you attended a baptist
service? Was it also one of those KJV only ones too? Please, don't take that the wrong way I was in
those shoes as a child. sometimes baptist sometimes catholic. I'm just curious.
As for the sheep issue I know people like to play that cold weather card but in the middle east the rainy
season is just ending. They would be out grazing this time of year. Average Bethlehem temps for Dec are
around 42. Here's an interesting link discussing this.
http://spofga.org/wrtk/2013/myth_too_cold_for_shepherds.php
The winter thing is a strawman. Not that it makes Dec birth correct mind you. The real answer is in the
stars of the wise men. The stars they followed aligned perfectly around June 22 2bc.
Honestly one of the reasons I guessed KJVonly type churches, Aside from attending one, Was the copyright
thing. It's a popular argument among the KJV ONLY crowd. Most of those are baptist. First, most who
claim to have a 1611 Don't. most churches who claim to use one... don't. Most use plain KJV or worse yet
the NKJV. The spelling in 1611 is all crazy. v for u and double ss all over. It makes it kind of hard to
read. that being said the Original 1611KJV IS in fact copyrighted. Here is a picture of it.
http://unsettledchristianity.com/2010/07/copyright-issues-and-the-kjv-1611/
As for Geneva I have little knowledge on it. other than history.

NiV look at the progressive changes made every few
years. Maybe you can see how it started as one thingand has slowly become something else. In the meantime I'll reasearch a bit more and remember the witch's name. I'll get back to ya.
last thing I have played in the  ocult too magic is very real.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:42:53 AM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #193 on: December 24, 2013, 03:45:23 AM »
harbinger77, you have not been attacked.
Name one time you've been attacked and provide a link.
And would you please address both of my posts.

EDIT:
I'm going to address your signature:
Quote
Rom1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
You do realize that scientists are NOT professing themselves to be wise right? In fact they're doing the exact opposite, they always admit they don't know all the details.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:48:17 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

---

Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #194 on: December 24, 2013, 04:06:54 AM »
As for making assumptions. I made none. please point them out if I did. and the material to prove I'm wrong. I have been here long enough to know the arguments out there. I both anticipated and answered the questions before they were asked to save time. You have demonstrated me correct in the anticipation on 2 counts. One of which I didn't answer, but I will now.

I decided to handle this in a separate post.

These are your assumptions:
Please use this google url I generated on you for evolution in particular
https://www.google.com/#q=site:whywontgodhealamputees.com+harbinger77+evolution

You assume that people are attacking or patronizing you when you are asked to provide sources for your "information," you never provide them, when pressed you get defensive then try and perform a bait and switch in order to get the attention off your mistake.

You also assume that there is this mass conspiracy in science to completely get rid of a god, when that is NOT the goal of science, you also assume we have "faith" in science, when in reality it's more of a justified confidence. You also assume that we won't fact check you when you decide to post definitions.

Quit assuming, I don't like being made into an ass, and i'm sure you don't either.

Ohhh I see other posts not this one.
Your link only gave me a cute picture. no quotes though.

It was not an assumption on the science thing. you have a speck of evidence and imagine the rest.. belief in things unseen or untested... that's faith. I am also confident in my faith. I may oversimplify but I don't assume.

attacking and patronizing,.. sources of info? You must mean medical records? it's the only thing I was asked and unable to provide. It was just the one dude I said that about. if you read the quote you would see it. the question was valid yes. the nature was patronizing. why do you think you defended it NOT the one who asked when i called it what it was.
 want to see this bait and switch thing you mention.
are you ever going to address tricuspid regeneration?

I don't know where you got the science conspiracies thing... but ok. I would say society not science. That you can quote and that is not an assumption it's in the news.

I slipped once explained my blunder and have corrected my action since. I never assumed no one would fact check... unless I link to something Christian. I link anyway, because I want to be wrong on that one.

why do my testimonies make you so mad?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2013, 04:16:07 AM »
As for making assumptions. I made none. please point them out if I did. and the material to prove I'm wrong. I have been here long enough to know the arguments out there. I both anticipated and answered the questions before they were asked to save time. You have demonstrated me correct in the anticipation on 2 counts. One of which I didn't answer, but I will now.

I decided to handle this in a separate post.

These are your assumptions:
Please use this google url I generated on you for evolution in particular
https://www.google.com/#q=site:whywontgodhealamputees.com+harbinger77+evolution

You assume that people are attacking or patronizing you when you are asked to provide sources for your "information," you never provide them, when pressed you get defensive then try and perform a bait and switch in order to get the attention off your mistake.

You also assume that there is this mass conspiracy in science to completely get rid of a god, when that is NOT the goal of science, you also assume we have "faith" in science, when in reality it's more of a justified confidence. You also assume that we won't fact check you when you decide to post definitions.

Quit assuming, I don't like being made into an ass, and i'm sure you don't either.

Ohhh I see other posts not this one.
Your link only gave me a cute picture. no quotes though.

It was not an assumption on the science thing. you have a speck of evidence and imagine the rest.. belief in things unseen or untested... that's faith. I am also confident in my faith. I may oversimplify but I don't assume.

attacking and patronizing,.. sources of info? You must mean medical records? it's the only thing I was asked and unable to provide. It was just the one dude I said that about. if you read the quote you would see it. the question was valid yes. the nature was patronizing. why do you think you defended it NOT the one who asked when i called it what it was.
 want to see this bait and switch thing you mention.
are you ever going to address tricuspid regeneration?

I don't know where you got the science conspiracies thing... but ok. I would say society not science. That you can quote and that is not an assumption it's in the news.

I slipped once explained my blunder and have corrected my action since. I never assumed no one would fact check... unless I link to something Christian. I link anyway, because I want to be wrong on that one.

why do my testimonies make you so mad?

1) I'm not mad, why do you think that?
2)
Quote
Your link only gave me a cute picture. no quotes though.
You're a liar, yes I said it, a liar:

Now could you actually address what I said? You know what I mean by information, news reports. I DON'T want or need medical records, I even specifically said NEWS.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2013, 04:21:12 AM »
harbinger77, you have not been attacked.
Name one time you've been attacked and provide a link.
And would you please address both of my posts.

EDIT:
I'm going to address your signature:
Quote
Rom1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
You do realize that scientists are NOT professing themselves to be wise right? In fact they're doing the exact opposite, they always admit they don't know all the details.

the signature...
i'm surprised that rode so long with no comment. In the context the verse is about idolatry.  never meant it to refer to science. to me it goes with the NO Atheists

not attacked... I'll link you a few really harsh and undeniable ones from graybeard shortly. I understand you see  differently, but you made some kind of google history of my comments for the purpose of attacking perceived assumptions. Just read my posts. I'm generally gang raped on these threads. It's cool though there are a few decent people around here. Hate will not move me. you can quote that too :)
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2013, 04:24:38 AM »
see calling me a lier... that's an attack. you have no clue what popped up on my screen.... Maybe you don't know my OS? I'm using a mobil OS. How can you know what works on it in order to justify calling me a lier?

You do come accross angry. That's why I asked.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #198 on: December 24, 2013, 04:25:51 AM »
harbinger77, you have not been attacked.
Name one time you've been attacked and provide a link.
And would you please address both of my posts.

EDIT:
I'm going to address your signature:
Quote
Rom1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
You do realize that scientists are NOT professing themselves to be wise right? In fact they're doing the exact opposite, they always admit they don't know all the details.

the signature...
i'm surprised that rode so long with no comment. In the context the verse is about idolatry.  never meant it to refer to science. to me it goes with the NO Atheists

not attacked... I'll link you a few really harsh and undeniable ones from graybeard shortly. I understand you see  differently, but you made some kind of google history of my comments for the purpose of attacking perceived assumptions. Just read my posts. I'm generally gang raped on these threads. It's cool though there are a few decent people around here. Hate will not move me. you can quote that too :)

Well quite obviously you're wrong about the No atheists bit, I never bought into Christianity, and I was raised southern baptist, I stopped going to church after the age of 8 when I told my mother that under no uncertain terms was I going to go to church again.

I personally have never attacked you, if you can provide a link to an instance of greybeard attacking you, that's cool, but you've done your share of attacking and dodging as well, so don't think you're innocent.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #199 on: December 24, 2013, 04:26:37 AM »
see calling me a lier... that's an attack. you have no clue what popped up on my screen.... Maybe you don't know my OS? I'm using a mobil OS. How can you know what works on it in order to justify calling me a lier?

You do come accross angry. That's why I asked.

Regardless of what type of OS you're running that link goes to the same place, Google has seamless integration, and no calling you a liar is not an attack.
I'm a developer, so I'm pretty certain I know what popped up on your screen, if you were unable to properly go to that link then it speaks poorly for google. I personally use mobile OSes on a regular basis, so I can say with confidence that that link lead you to where it was supposed to.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 04:28:29 AM by Antidote »
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #200 on: December 24, 2013, 04:35:38 AM »
this one was recently posted... don't think I ever talked to this dude even...




My comment about being thankful not seeking Ugabuga. Why can't you just be thankful you given life? Without father I wouldn't be here. In my case father was abusive so I thankful not knowing that type  childhood.
No matter the circumstance there always something be thankful for.
As why should you seek Ugabuga? unlike your John father In this case Ugabuga given you much. Your life, sun, stars, food, fish even. He didn't walk out. He gave everything you.. even King Agga, his son, tasted our death. Providence, common grace, be thankful. :)

That's what you sound like to me. An ignorant savage bowing down before your volcano god.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #201 on: December 24, 2013, 04:40:19 AM »
this one.tells.me. I'm possessed by satan only one of the many from graybeard... I wouldn't have said these things but i could never get away with it if I did.

biased absolutely! narrow minded concerning God? Yes sir!
Dear me... You do know that God hates you, right?

Let us crack open KJV1611 and ask ourselves, "Who does God hate?" but first let us look at what Jesus says: You proclaim your faith loudly, yet does not Jesus warn,

"Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."


And now, a couple of sins that you seem to wallow in; sins that are abhorrent to God. He hates people like you:

The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30),

So, what is this "hate"? Why, it is the doctrine of reprobation or God's "HATE" and this involves eternal retribution or the everlasting punishment in Hell forever. The description is given in Leviticus 20:13,23, Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Malachi 1:1-3, Romans 9:11-13, Matthew 7:13,23, John 12:39-40, 1 Peter 2:8, Jude 4, Revelation 13:8, 20:15, 21:27, etc.

Yet you mindlessly, and happily ignoring the Word of the Almighty, The Lord of Hosts, (and paradoxically) you spit in His Perfect Face and boast of your faith and humility. You scream how humble you are from the roof-tops. You call for others to see how much you love God.

Is this right? Can it be true? It certainly seems so. I'm with God on this one. It is disgusting.

So, as you fry for all eternity, I and the other atheists here, having been modest and truly humble hoping only for "reasonable people to be heard (see the Sermon on the Mount), will sit with Jesus and look down and laugh as Satan and his Devils anally rape you in the pit of darkness and fire for all eternity. We, like poor Lazarus will peer down on you and we will laugh with Jesus.

I am really glad I am not you, for you the Afterlife will be torture without end and the presence of God will have deserted you for ever.

Worse still: as if your sins were not black and evil enough, you say you are biased... and yet Jesus tells us to "Judge in righteousness."

Jesus does not say, “Start hating, don't listen to reason but spit out your own one-sided, personal bile." No... He does not do that.  Yet you do it. I am so, so sad for you.

You will never see your family in heaven. You will never know joy. You will never sit at God’s right hand.

Look, Harbinger, I’m the last person to say this but I really feel the presence of Satan in your soul, your prideful, dark and wizened soul, the soul that festers with conceit, bias and pride within your breast and forces you to proclaim how much better you are than others. I cannot understand why all that Jesus has ever said is, to you and your dark master, no more than so much dross.

I hear you say you talk to God... and someone talks back... I am afraid that everything points to your being deceived. The voice you hear is that of Satan and his minions.

It cannot possibly be the Voice of Jesus. Jesus would never, ever, tell you to write such things.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #202 on: December 24, 2013, 04:42:04 AM »
2quick examples... I could go on. Do you still hold that I am NEVER attacked?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project