Author Topic: Why are scientists afraid of god?  (Read 20583 times)

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Offline wright

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #116 on: December 09, 2013, 10:20:56 PM »
WOW... and I'm the bigot?
What may I ask is the point of this tantrum as it offered nothing to the conversation.

Sarcasm can be difficult to convey over the internet. Nonetheless, the  &) smiley is usually a good indicator of such.

And yeah, it was a bit of a rant. Thing is, harbinger77, we atheist regulars here are only human and sometimes lose patience with being confronted by the same long-discredited fallacies and objections creationists bring against evolutionary theory. It gets boring and irritating, even when the creationist is honestly asking those questions (and fairly often they aren't asking, just trolling us).

That said, I personally don't think you're trolling. But you haven't brought anything new to the debate; thus far all I see is incredulity and playing turnabout wordgames.

You asked for how a particular symbiotic relationship could have evolved. I and others gave you examples of how evolution might explain it.

Now you're claiming we have "faith" in science. No. What we have is an expectation, based on the observation that the scientific method works. Our expectation is based on actual evidence. If you want your religious views given equivalent respect, then produce equivalent evidence.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2013, 10:27:31 PM »
Your faith is in science. Mine is in God. I have personal evidence to build a faith in God. You choose to imagine anything but God. This is where we differ. Don't get into this part though. Rather admit, short of introducing you personally to my friend God, you would reject whatever I offer. For some of you a personal introduction would still not be enough.

Make no mistake about it. If he ever showed up on my doorstep, he would get a ear full. He would be asked point blank how it is that he, a perfect being, made humans nicer than he is. And why. He would be asked why he has played absentee parent for these last many thousands of years, and why he made it so easy to think that he didn't exist. He would be asked why the suffering of the innocent was of no concern, and why he allowed the mighty and powerful and selfish to predominate and damage. He would be asked where he was during the inquisition and the holocaust, where he was during hurricanes and tsunami's, where he was when every child ever murdered was dying.

And he would be asked why he thought he was so great. Why did he demand worship when all he offered in return was an old book and old men with old ideas. Why he didn't keep up with the transformation of humans from shepherds to astronauts. And he would be asked why he made the earth look different than one would expect if his story were true. And why he allowed so many deviations from whatever it was he originally intended. And why the Adam and Eve thing was so frickin' important, and why he wasn't able to handle the errors of human ways in a different manner other than flooding the place, and why he let his people wander around lost for 40 years. He would be asked why he was afraid of iron chariots.

And more.

He would have a lot to answer for before he dared ask me to worship him.

But if he doesn't exist, well, you know, never mind.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2013, 10:28:21 PM »
No, no, no! Breathing air is required by the holy god! Fish are not really alive-- they are just faking it. And amphibians are like bisexuals-- they need to effing make up their minds.

My god is perfect, got that? Any mistakes are in the eye of the beholder-- an eye that could not possibly have evolved, btw. Don't show me any light sensitive cells on plants that turn towards the sun, either. Plants are atheists and will burn in hell.

All non-evolved, intelligently-designed specially-created life has to breathe air, even if it means we choke and drown sometimes.  Small price to pay to show how awesome my god is! Well, maybe not so small when a child chokes or drowns, but at least they go straight to heaven. If they are Christian children, that is. Where is my anti-Darwin punch pillow?  &)
WOW... and I'm the bigot?
What may I ask is the point of this tantrum as it offered nothing to the conversation.

Not really a tantrum, just a sarcastic tirade to demonstrate the absurdity of your claims.

Yeah that... some of that was even a quote huh? Whatever makes you feel good, sir.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline Antidote

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2013, 10:42:09 PM »
Yeah that... some of that was even a quote huh? Whatever makes you feel good, sir.

Let me ask you something harbinger, are you willing to be proven wrong? Can your understanding of evolution and science be expanded? Or are you just rejecting both out of shear principle?

If you can't accept the possibility when presented with evidence, quit using that computer, house, car, plumbing, everything man-made. Because guess what: It was done using a scientific discipline, and using/owning them shows your support of the scientific process. Like it or not, Evolution is one of, if not the most, substantiated scientific theories in all of science. It even has several other scientific fields backing it up. Evolution is more than smoke and mirrors like people like you tend to claim, It's an important aspect of our lives. If it weren't for our knowledge of evolution vaccines wouldn't exist, Polio would still be a common occurrence, smallpox would still be a problem, malaria would still be a problem all over.

Evolution, while it can't be proven to be absolutely true, is the best possible explanation for the phenomena observed. Accept it or not, like it or not, it's real, and it's important that we understand how it works.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #120 on: December 09, 2013, 10:44:38 PM »
I'm not trying to make people mad here. just calling it like I see it. That being said I have a feeling you all won't like where I take this.
Actually, having read it, I'm not really impressed.  Your logic has a fatal flaw in it.

Quote from: harbinger77
Minor premise: One can't imagine (or has not imagined) how P could be so.

Major premise (unstated): If P, then one could imagine (or would have imagined) how P could be so.

Conclusion: Not-P.
Irrelevant.  If P exists, it does not matter that one can not imagine how it could be so.  And if P does not exist, then it does not matter that one can imagine how it could be so.  That's why one can't rely on being able to imagine how something might exist, or not being able to imagine how it might exist.

Quote from: harbinger77
As a syllogism this is valid. The fallacy lies in the unstated major premise. If a state of affairs is impossible to imagine, it doesn't follow that it is false; it may only mean that imagination is limited. Moreover, if no one has yet managed to imagine how a state of affairs is possible, it doesn't follow that no one will ever be able to.
Accurate, so far as it goes.  But nowhere do you mention or even acknowledge that the converse is also true.  If a state of affairs is possible to imagine, it doesn't follow that it is true.  Furthermore, this illustrates the fatal flaw I mentioned.  This logic doesn't tell us a thing about whether P actually exists or not.  This is why evidence is so important, and why we can't just rely on logic and philosophy to tell us about the universe.

Quote from: harbinger77
Keep reading I changed it up a bit :)

Minor premise: One can't imagine (or has not imagined) how God could be so.

Major premise (unstated): If God, then one could imagine (or would have imagined) how God could be so. (or at least how to prove one way or the other)

Conclusion: Not- God
As before, irrelevant.

Quote from: harbinger77
As a syllogism this is valid. The fallacy lies in the unstated major premise. If a person lacks FAITH in a state of affairs, it doesn't follow that it is false; it may only mean that FAITH is limited. (or absent) Moreover, if no one has yet managed THE FAITH TO SEE how a state of affairs is possible, it doesn't follow that no one will ever be able to.
As before, this has a fatal flaw - it doesn't actually tell us whether God really exists or not.  Moreover, it cannot tell us that either.  It simply talks about someone having 'faith' (in actuality, having imagination)

Quote from: harbinger77
This is a perfect statement. It can go both ways and clearly demonstrates how it takes faith (here referred to as imagination) to be both an atheist as well as an evolutionist.
No, it is a badly flawed statement, as you are conflating 'faith' with imagination.  I can imagine lots of things, but my ability to imagine them doesn't mean I have faith that they really exist.

Quote from: harbinger77
Your faith is in science.
Incorrect.  I have no 'faith' in science.  I never have had any and I never will have any.  I understand how the scientific process works too well to have 'faith' in it.

Quote from: harbinger77
Mine is in God. I have personal evidence to build a faith in God.
Which you conveniently can't show to anyone else, meaning it isn't useful in any way, shape, or form except to validate a belief you already hold.  You can't even show us that your evidence really exists, rather than it being the product of your own imagination - indeed, your earlier conflation of faith and imagination strongly implies that it is.

Quote from: harbinger77
You choose to imagine anything but God. This is where we differ. Don't get into this part though. Rather admit, short of introducing you personally to my friend God, you would reject whatever I offer. For some of you a personal introduction would still not be enough.
Incorrect.  If you had real, solid evidence that supported your belief, something you could actually share, it would make your argument a lot more convincing.  Instead, all you have is flawed logic and personal 'evidence' that doesn't exist for anyone besides you.  What you need to understand is that this isn't about competing imaginations.  I don't 'imagine' the evidence that shows that science works, so your comparison fails.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #121 on: December 09, 2013, 11:00:10 PM »
Your faith is in science. Mine is in God. I have personal evidence to build a faith in God. You choose to imagine anything but God. This is where we differ. Don't get into this part though. Rather admit, short of introducing you personally to my friend God, you would reject whatever I offer. For some of you a personal introduction would still not be enough.

Make no mistake about it. If he ever showed up on my doorstep, he would get a ear full. He would be asked point blank how it is that he, a perfect being, made humans nicer than he is. And why. He would be asked why he has played absentee parent for these last many thousands of years, and why he made it so easy to think that he didn't exist. He would be asked why the suffering of the innocent was of no concern, and why he allowed the mighty and powerful and selfish to predominate and damage. He would be asked where he was during the inquisition and the holocaust, where he was during hurricanes and tsunami's, where he was when every child ever murdered was dying.

And he would be asked why he thought he was so great. Why did he demand worship when all he offered in return was an old book and old men with old ideas. Why he didn't keep up with the transformation of humans from shepherds to astronauts. And he would be asked why he made the earth look different than one would expect if his story were true. And why he allowed so many deviations from whatever it was he originally intended. And why the Adam and Eve thing was so frickin' important, and why he wasn't able to handle the errors of human ways in a different manner other than flooding the place, and why he let his people wander around lost for 40 years. He would be asked why he was afraid of iron chariots.

And more.

He would have a lot to answer for before he dared ask me to worship him.

But if he doesn't exist, well, you know, never mind.

I'll change nothing, but this may come across as angry or hateful. I don't mean either. I do stand by my statements though.

ALL of this assumes that when He showed up you didn't first require an endless list of proof.

 However, If (I give ya that) the bible is correct you will fall on your face unable to speak. There will be no doubt who is before you. You will ask no questions. He won't ask for your worship. He is God and you just will worship Him. To think you would even attempt to give the God of the universe "an ear full" very arrogant on your part. This also shows you have quite a small view of what God must be in order to even BE God.

Read the book of Job. In His mercy, He answered all your questions there. The answer starts with who do you think you are o man!

I would like to point out You have a heck of a list of questions you've thought to ask a God you believe so strongly doesn't even exist. I find that interesting.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #122 on: December 09, 2013, 11:11:01 PM »
I would like to point out You have a heck of a list of questions you've thought to ask a God you believe so strongly doesn't even exist. I find that interesting.

Do you really think that Christians are the only ones with vivid imaginations?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #123 on: December 09, 2013, 11:26:35 PM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life thretning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!
This may be the best I can do for some dude online though.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #124 on: December 09, 2013, 11:39:30 PM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life threatning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!
This may be the best I can do for some dude online though.

That sounds amazing. What was the name of this heart specialist? I would like to keep an eye out for the award winning paper he will write about the first ever documented, verifiable miracle.
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2013, 11:45:14 PM »
I'll change nothing, but this may come across as angry or hateful. I don't mean either. I do stand by my statements though.

ALL of this assumes that when He showed up you didn't first require an endless list of proof.

 However, If (I give ya that) the bible is correct you will fall on your face unable to speak. There will be no doubt who is before you. You will ask no questions. He won't ask for your worship. He is God and you just will worship Him. To think you would even attempt to give the God of the universe "an ear full" very arrogant on your part. This also shows you have quite a small view of what God must be in order to even BE God.

Read the book of Job. In His mercy, He answered all your questions there. The answer starts with who do you think you are o man!


Though we shouldn't we can, indeed, move mountains:



We can't make whales yet, but we're now at least able to make meat:

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21583241-worlds-first-hamburger-made-lab-grown-meat-has-just-been-served

Who do I think I am. It doesn't matter, but right now I'm a critic.

Who does your god think I am? Dirt. Literally and figuratively. Even if I was a christian,he would think I am nothing. In my semi-long life, I have seen many a christian friend go through a variety of hells, from cancer to fatal car wrecks to murdered parents. While I have cruised through life with none of those things. I'm an atheist. I can see how a real go would treat me like dirt. But if his followers have no noticeable advantages, then he is treating them exactly the same way. If not worse.

If real, he's the one with an ego. A giant ego, an insatiable ego that demands faith in the in the face of totally contrary evidence, the insatiable ego for whom being worshipped is more important than the worshippers. The christian world is formed around him is like a Monty Python sketch gone bad, with silly rules and bumbling actors and, sadly, bad lines. Which is why nobody is laughing.

Being impressed by nothing is not very impressive. Yet christians insist that they must be right, because by golly they just have to be. Otherwise they wouldn't' be able to exist in this world. Which means that the only tool they have to survive is their imagination, and they have to spend their every waking minute fending off information to the contrary.

Who am I. It may be relevant after all. I'm you're worst nightmare. I'm informed and educated and not tied to a preconceived notion of what reality is. So I ask questions and demand honest answers, even when I don't like them. I seek rather than hide, I appreciate knowledge, and I am not one who demands that others must accept my unsubstantiated version of the truth.

Who are you? Better not answer that. Your head would explode. You're better off inside that tiny box that your beliefs allow you to cruise around in. You think you're in a philosophical Ferrari, but you're actually in a pedal car.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #126 on: December 10, 2013, 12:05:43 AM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life threatning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!
This may be the best I can do for some dude online though.

That sounds amazing. What was the name of this heart specialist? I would like to keep an eye out for the award winning paper he will write about the first ever documented, verifiable miracle.
We frequently get Christians here who tell us that god does not intervene in human affairs anymore, which is why we have famines and childhood leukemia and traumatic brain injuries with no sign of god. Not to mention those annoying amputees who just stubbornly refuse to grow back limbs anywhere near a cell phone camera. So, how did you get so special as to have god help you and our wife out?

Please tell us how to get in touch with god, so we can refer him to where he is most needed. I am quite happy, have a great job, nice home and loving family. My wonderful atheist life is complete and I have no need of supernatural assistance.  However, I have several good friends-- some are struggling immigrants, and others live in third world countries-- who are much more deserving than me, who are devoutly religious and who are eagerly waiting for some of that loving attention that you have received.

I am hardly a bigot against religious folks. I was raised in a strict Christian home and know the drill quite well. I teach college students and am so even-handed and respectful that my Muslim students think I am Muslim. Read my posts-- mostly I am kinda funny, down-to-earth and nerdy. But I do get tired of watching people wasting time and money on useless feel-good supernatural sh!t, while denying the science that actually works.

Any input on those light sensitive cells that evolved into the various kinds of eyes we find in nature? Or are plants really the instruments of Satan?  ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #127 on: December 10, 2013, 12:27:00 AM »
However, If (I give ya that) the bible is correct you will fall on your face unable to speak. There will be no doubt who is before you. You will ask no questions. He won't ask for your worship. He is God and you just will worship Him. To think you would even attempt to give the God of the universe "an ear full" very arrogant on your part. This also shows you have quite a small view of what God must be in order to even BE God.
I have to disagree here, strongly.  There's a concept you need to get through your head, it's called speaking truth to power.  What it means is being willing to say what's necessary, even though you might get in trouble for it, simply because it is necessary.  Doesn't matter if it's your boss, the President of the United States, the Supreme Overlord of the Universe, or even God.  Even Caesar had a slave behind him in his chariot, whispering, "this too shall pass" when he was cheered by the multitudes of Rome.

Now, it's true that not everyone is capable of doing that - but I would think a god would be able to recognize just how much a treasure such a person would be.  And yet you call it arrogance?  The only arrogance here is that which I see coming from you, declaring that someone who you don't even know would fall on their knees and worship a god merely because he is a god.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #128 on: December 10, 2013, 12:31:12 AM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life thretning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!

Uh, Mr. Harbinger, sir -- I happen to work in a large hospital.  I type medical reports for various specialists.  I can say with confidence that you are flat-out wrong about there being no treatment for GERD.  I can provide anecdotal evidence of My own successful treatment of same a decade ago, without surgery and with an inexpensive H2 antagonist that is available over-the-counter in just about every pharmacy in town.  I can also come up with literally dozens of peer-reviewed papers outlining treatment best practices for the condition. 

And if you would be so kind to provide Me with the exact medical name of your wife's heart condition, I think we could come up with a few dozen more peer-reviewed papers suggesting treatment strategies for that as well.

Seriously, stay away from the "medical miracle" stories while you're at WWGHA.  I take a special interest in debunking them.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #129 on: December 10, 2013, 07:57:37 PM »
try this link for an example. some of this a bit heady and there are a few remarks I could have done without but this was still a good read.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

I see a lot of conversation has occured since this post, however I would like to comment on this link provided.

harbinger77, you really didn't do yourself any favors by posting this link.  I skimmed through it and counted several points which have been debunked.  I would guess that the entire link you posted is false.  The problem with anti-evolutionists is they don't understand evolution. 

Why don't you try reading about evolution and attempt to understand it for yourself before you start reading anti-evolution lies?   After all, if evolution is clearly false then understanding it and proving that it is false should be very easy.  I suspect that you are afraid.  You are afraid that you will fail and conclude that evolution is indeed a valid observation of how nature works.  So you rely on others to support your pre-existing perspective.

Even complex and convincing falsehoods can be proven false.  This is why the link you posted fails in accomplishing anything, it is one big complex and convincing falsehood which has been proven false repeatedly for the last several decades.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #130 on: December 10, 2013, 10:00:06 PM »
try this link for an example. some of this a bit heady and there are a few remarks I could have done without but this was still a good read.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

I see a lot of conversation has occured since this post, however I would like to comment on this link provided.

harbinger77, you really didn't do yourself any favors by posting this link.  I skimmed through it and counted several points which have been debunked.  I would guess that the entire link you posted is false.  The problem with anti-evolutionists is they don't understand evolution. 

Why don't you try reading about evolution and attempt to understand it for yourself before you start reading anti-evolution lies?   After all, if evolution is clearly false then understanding it and proving that it is false should be very easy.  I suspect that you are afraid.  You are afraid that you will fail and conclude that evolution is indeed a valid observation of how nature works.  So you rely on others to support your pre-existing perspective.

Even complex and convincing falsehoods can be proven false.  This is why the link you posted fails in accomplishing anything, it is one big complex and convincing falsehood which has been proven false repeatedly for the last several decades.

fair enough. As you have skimmed through and know at least some of the points and that they have been proven false. Would you care to post said "lie" so that I'll know the point(s) you're talking about, and a link that may provide the information that debunks it?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #131 on: December 10, 2013, 10:19:21 PM »
First three links after typing "evolution" into the google machine:

Search Results
Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution?

Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at ...
?
Evolution - PBS
www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/?

The most comprehensive evolutionary science resource on the Internet.

Understanding Evolution
evolution.berkeley.edu/?

Teaching the science and history of evolutionary biology, from the University of California Museum of Paleontology and the National Center for Science ...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #132 on: December 11, 2013, 10:30:21 AM »
If you can't dazzle with brilliance then baffle with bullshit.

What he is doing is engaging in Underwear Gnomes Theism:


(1)Find one thing that science is unclear on(or is too difficult to the Theist to understand)
(2) Shrug
(3) Declare that Young Earth Creation and the Bible is true


And the worst thing is when (1) is solved, you find a different (1)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #133 on: December 11, 2013, 10:02:59 PM »
try this link for an example. some of this a bit heady and there are a few remarks I could have done without but this was still a good read.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

I see a lot of conversation has occured since this post, however I would like to comment on this link provided.

harbinger77, you really didn't do yourself any favors by posting this link.  I skimmed through it and counted several points which have been debunked.  I would guess that the entire link you posted is false.  The problem with anti-evolutionists is they don't understand evolution. 

Why don't you try reading about evolution and attempt to understand it for yourself before you start reading anti-evolution lies?   After all, if evolution is clearly false then understanding it and proving that it is false should be very easy.  I suspect that you are afraid.  You are afraid that you will fail and conclude that evolution is indeed a valid observation of how nature works.  So you rely on others to support your pre-existing perspective.

Even complex and convincing falsehoods can be proven false.  This is why the link you posted fails in accomplishing anything, it is one big complex and convincing falsehood which has been proven false repeatedly for the last several decades.

fair enough. As you have skimmed through and know at least some of the points and that they have been proven false. Would you care to post said "lie" so that I'll know the point(s) you're talking about, and a link that may provide the information that debunks it?

I appreciate that you are interested in discussion.

There are two fronts in truly understand how absurd the link you posted is.

First, as I suggested, learning about what the actual claims of evolution are, learning about what the evidence of evolution is and properly understanding it all.  You’ll have to set aside any pre-existing understandings you might have (save them for later).  It is difficult to understand something if you simply dismiss or ignore certain things about what you are trying to understand.

Here are some links to help you understand the theory of evolution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnQe0xW_JY4&list=SP3EED4C1D684D3ADF
-   I know this is long even though it is supposed to be a crash course (I watched all the videos, very informative even if it does move very quickly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent
-   Wikipedia has some good information.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01
-   Berkeley has a website dedicated to understanding the theory of evolution.

Keep in mind, everything we understand today about the theory of evolution is based on over 150 years of investigation, research, testing, verification and use of the scientific method by thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people in many fields of science.  All of these people have or had different backgrounds and specialized areas of expertise.

Secondly, once you understand the theory of evolution and examine the claims of anti-evolutionists you begin to see a pattern of misunderstanding and outright lies which are often repeated over and over again.  These misunderstandings and outright lies are repeated so often that there are websites that have just about all the false claims from anti-evolutionists documented thoroughly and debunked equally as thorough.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolution


In regards to any one of the specific points, I’ll just look at one lie at random. 

Lie:  The “Tree of Life” is falling

This section goes into horizontal gene transfer and how it is supposedly dismantling the Tree of Life.  HGT has not caused the Tree of Life to fall, which makes a claim otherwise a lie.  Actually what HGT is doing is uncovering new evidence which advances our understanding of the Tree of Life and rearranges it to a more accurate picture.

Here are some links were you can learn about horizontal gene transfer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/focus/genetransfer/index.html

Here is a link to the article (http://www.nature.com/news/phylogeny-rewriting-evolution-1.10885 ) which is actually quote mined by your original link.  The article doesn’t even refute evolution, rather it supports it and only aims to form a different looking “tree of life” based on the research done by Kevin Peterson.  The article also provides a reasonable counter argument to the conclusions that Peterson has arrived at, which has to do with mircroRNA losses.  This is typical in science, Scientists examine evidence, propose hypothesis, predictions are made based on those hypothesis’s and then tested.  Evidence and methods are examined and reviewed.  HGT is a very new hypothesis within the theory of evolution. 

If you were wondering, yes this claim is documented and debunked by talkorigins (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB822.html). talkorigins also has the earliest known claim related to HGT which was back in 2003 from darwinismrefuted.com.  Ironically, many of the same points in your link are similar to the darwinismrefuted.com article, although I don’t believe it is a direct copy (the title is close though).
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #134 on: December 13, 2013, 02:54:19 AM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life thretning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!

Uh, Mr. Harbinger, sir -- I happen to work in a large hospital.  I type medical reports for various specialists.  I can say with confidence that you are flat-out wrong about there being no treatment for GERD.  I can provide anecdotal evidence of My own successful treatment of same a decade ago, without surgery and with an inexpensive H2 antagonist that is available over-the-counter in just about every pharmacy in town.  I can also come up with literally dozens of peer-reviewed papers outlining treatment best practices for the condition. 

And if you would be so kind to provide Me with the exact medical name of your wife's heart condition, I think we could come up with a few dozen more peer-reviewed papers suggesting treatment strategies for that as well.

Seriously, stay away from the "medical miracle" stories while you're at WWGHA.  I take a special interest in debunking them.


I do not deny that you are absolutely correct. I never said there is no treatment available. There are treatments and surgeries as I stated to fix both conditions. To Fix GERD requires diet and lifestyle changes I was never interested in. A pill a day forever (That's what the dr told me)or surgery. I did none of these. I had NO TREATMENT. Unless tums is a treatment that cures?

My wife had NO TREATMENT. Unless the 2 Eccos and the 1 pep talk from the Dr was a treatment? 1 pep talk because the second time she was amazed. Never saw this before she said. Her heart condition required surgery. There was no other treatment even discussed. It's a shame in this world if you have no insurance you don't get treatment. We are lucky to get the bare minimum in the E.R. You should know that though. Then again maybe you and I just disagree on what "treatment" really is?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 03:00:17 AM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #135 on: December 13, 2013, 03:33:52 AM »
However, If (I give ya that) the bible is correct you will fall on your face unable to speak. There will be no doubt who is before you. You will ask no questions. He won't ask for your worship. He is God and you just will worship Him. To think you would even attempt to give the God of the universe "an ear full" very arrogant on your part. This also shows you have quite a small view of what God must be in order to even BE God.
I have to disagree here, strongly.  There's a concept you need to get through your head, it's called speaking truth to power.  What it means is being willing to say what's necessary, even though you might get in trouble for it, simply because it is necessary.  Doesn't matter if it's your boss, the President of the United States, the Supreme Overlord of the Universe, or even God.  Even Caesar had a slave behind him in his chariot, whispering, "this too shall pass" when he was cheered by the multitudes of Rome.

Now, it's true that not everyone is capable of doing that - but I would think a god would be able to recognize just how much a treasure such a person would be.  And yet you call it arrogance?  The only arrogance here is that which I see coming from you, declaring that someone who you don't even know would fall on their knees and worship a god merely because he is a god.

I happen to be one of those who will speak to power. I got that one through my head while serving in the Army Infantry. It took a while to learn tact, so I got into trouble a lot early on.

when i said "If(I'll give you that) the bible is correct..." that was the lynch pin of the whole statement. Read revelation. It will tell you what you will do when you see him in all Glory. I don't need your theories of how mere men act one to another.

maybe what you need to "get through your head" Is God is Other. He will not act as a mere man would. when in His Presence you will not be so bold. He is more than your finite mind could ever dream of. As for ego. He is GOD. Not "a god" THE GOD. There is none greater. I anyone has right to an ego as you call it, would it not be THE GOD?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #136 on: December 13, 2013, 12:33:44 PM »
I happen to be one of those who will speak to power. I got that one through my head while serving in the Army Infantry. It took a while to learn tact, so I got into trouble a lot early on.
Yet apparently, despite this, you think God is so amazingly awesome that everyone in the world will instantly fall down on their knees and worship.

Quote from: harbinger77
when i said "If(I'll give you that) the bible is correct..." that was the lynch pin of the whole statement. Read revelation. It will tell you what you will do when you see him in all Glory. I don't need your theories of how mere men act one to another.
But since the Bible being true is the lynch-pin of your statement, it serves as its fatal weakness as well.  You see, the Bible has to actually be true for that to matter.  So I simply don't care what the Bible says what people will do when they see God appear in all glory, or whatever.  There's enough inaccuracies and outright falsehoods in the Bible that there's no reason at all for me to accept that to begin with - or anything else conveyed in Revelation.

Leaving that aside, I'm not the kind of person to fall on my knees and instinctively worship anything, whether god or human.  Certainly not based on the ravings of an exile with a grudge against the Roman Empire, close to two thousand years ago.

Quote from: harbinger77
maybe what you need to "get through your head" Is God is Other. He will not act as a mere man would. when in His Presence you will not be so bold. He is more than your finite mind could ever dream of. As for ego. He is GOD. Not "a god" THE GOD. There is none greater. I anyone has right to an ego as you call it, would it not be THE GOD?
Frankly, I don't care about your opinion of God's majesty, because it's based on your reading of the Bible, what you've heard from other Christians, and whatever else you've dreamed up in your own mind.  The Bible is not a reliable source, and the other stuff is purely subjective and thus not meaningful.  Who are you to tell me what I should or should not believe about the nature of God?  Assuming he even exists in the first place.

Offline Jag

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2013, 01:34:37 PM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life threatning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!
This may be the best I can do for some dude online though.

That sounds amazing. What was the name of this heart specialist? I would like to keep an eye out for the award winning paper he will write about the first ever documented, verifiable miracle.

Did I overlook the reply to this, or has there not been one yet?
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2013, 01:38:50 PM »
I got that one through my head while serving in the Army Infantry.
along with a fair amount of shrapnel it seems.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2013, 01:51:27 PM »
maybe what you need to "get through your head" Is God is Other. He will not act as a mere man would. when in His Presence you will not be so bold. He is more than your finite mind could ever dream of. As for ego. He is GOD. Not "a god" THE GOD. There is none greater. I anyone has right to an ego as you call it, would it not be THE GOD?

What if the only question that could and would be asked was "should I worship you THE GOD"?

If the answer is yes, then that would mean what exactly?  What does THE GOD gain from being worshiped?  Is THE GOD insecure?

- Now if some one refuses to worship THE GOD, what then?  Hell would prove some kind of insecurity.  I have to assume THE GOD is perfectly secure, so ...

The answer will be no.  THE GOD knows why THE GOD would not be worshiped and would not desire, need or accept worship.

The only god that desires, needs, accepts or even expects worship would be an imperfect one.  An imperfect god does not deserve worship.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #140 on: December 13, 2013, 03:46:20 PM »
Worship that is demanded is not worship at all. It is enforced reverence. When you toss in penalties too gruesome to mention, then you are simply talking about enslaved conformity.

I'm not interested. Luckily, I don't have to be. And luckier yet, I realize that.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #141 on: December 13, 2013, 04:33:41 PM »
maybe what you need to "get through your head" Is God is Other. He will not act as a mere man would. when in His Presence you will not be so bold. He is more than your finite mind could ever dream of. As for ego. He is GOD. Not "a god" THE GOD. There is none greater. I anyone has right to an ego as you call it, would it not be THE GOD?

What if the only question that could and would be asked was "should I worship you THE GOD"?

If the answer is yes, then that would mean what exactly?  What does THE GOD gain from being worshiped?  Is THE GOD insecure?

- Now if some one refuses to worship THE GOD, what then?  Hell would prove some kind of insecurity.  I have to assume THE GOD is perfectly secure, so ...

The answer will be no.  THE GOD knows why THE GOD would not be worshiped and would not desire, need or accept worship.

The only god that desires, needs, accepts or even expects worship would be an imperfect one.  An imperfect god does not deserve worship.

harbinger77, 

You are right about a few things.  THE GOD will not act as a mere mortal.  THE GOD is more than my mind, your mind or any ones mind could possibly comprehend on many levels.  Atheists already understand this.  I have found that some theists don't understand this and often try to apply mortal desires, needs and/or characteristics to a being that would be beyond such flaws. 

An all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving THE GOD has no use for worship, revenge, hate, impatience, intolerance, ignorance, arrogance, greed, lust, ego or any flaw exhibited by humans.

EDIT: Spelling
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 04:35:39 PM by SevenPatch »
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2013, 09:12:12 AM »
What if the only question that could and would be asked was "should I worship you THE GOD"?

If the answer is yes, then that would mean what exactly?  What does THE GOD gain from being worshiped?  Is THE GOD insecure?

- Now if some one refuses to worship THE GOD, what then?  Hell would prove some kind of insecurity.  I have to assume THE GOD is perfectly secure, so ...

The answer will be no.  THE GOD knows why THE GOD would not be worshiped and would not desire, need or accept worship.

The only god that desires, needs, accepts or even expects worship would be an imperfect one.  An imperfect god does not deserve worship.
Yes worship The Gawd

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2013, 08:29:12 PM »
I was personally healed of GERD. My wife was healed of a Life threatning heart condition. Both of these were conditions that should have required surgery to repair. The before condition is documented for both of us. My Wife's after condition is documented by a heart specialist. There was NO treatment of any kind for either condition. Yet praise God, it's gone!
This may be the best I can do for some dude online though.

That sounds amazing. What was the name of this heart specialist? I would like to keep an eye out for the award winning paper he will write about the first ever documented, verifiable miracle.

Did I overlook the reply to this, or has there not been one yet?

I deem the question as both spiteful and patronizing. I ignored it. So no, it was never answered.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2013, 08:50:52 PM »
I deem the question as both spiteful and patronizing. I ignored it. So no, it was never answered.

So you're not going to name the heart specialist, thus denying us the ability to verify your story?

So it's just a matter whenever we believe your words?  Funny how that works.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.