Author Topic: Why are scientists afraid of god?  (Read 20026 times)

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Offline Dante

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2013, 04:14:15 PM »
Seems to me they are scared children will like that explanation better and abandon evolution belief.

What does liking an explanation have to do with what's true? I'm sure children would like the explanation that the moon is made of cheese better too, but that doesn't make it correct. I'm sure you like the explanation that you get to live forever, but that's not true either.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2013, 04:51:48 PM »
Agreed, Dante.  Science isn't a popularity contest.  It isn't about what people like better, it's about figuring out how things actually work and what's actually real.

Online Fiji

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2013, 02:09:55 AM »
Can you imagine a world where science WAS a popularity contest ...

Principal: "Ok people, we have the curriculum for this year. This year dinosaurs coexisted with ninjas. The Apollo program WAS an effort to collect an alien artifact from the moon. And Electricity is due to gnomes."
Science teacher: "Gnomes? How?!"
Principal: *leafs through his papers* "Apparently, first they collect the underpants, then ... something ... then electricity."
Science teacher: "Oh Thor! If you'll excuse me ... " *opens window*
Principal: *as the science teacher is leaping through it, the principal calls after him* "Gravity is due to fearies pushing you down!"
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2013, 01:21:03 PM »
Some scientists are scared to death of God. For proof, ask them to mention the word "God" in science class and watch their screaming, yelling, and faces become red with anger.

Give specifics and documentation of these occurrences, because I do not believe you. If you said they facepalmed at the idiocy...well that would be believable.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2013, 06:57:47 PM »
A lot of very interesting points made in this thread with a few exceptions (I'm looking at you skeptic54768!).  Off Topic, I think I disagree with almost everything I've read that was posted by skeptic54768.  I think that is weird.  For fun I'm going to try to find something I agree with him/her on.  I do give credit to the persistence and tenacity of skeptic54768 though.  Thinking about it, I find it both admirable and depressing at the same time.

Here is my own take/perspective on the question "Why are scientists afraid of god?" (hopefully it is unique and haven’t missed it already having been discussed):

I think it has to do with conformity.  It isn’t god that scientists fear, it is the feelings and thoughts of loved ones, family and friends that believe in god that is feared.  I speak from experience on this as I have family members and friends who I would prefer not know that I don’t believe in god.  I wouldn’t lie to them if they asked me, but they’ve never asked if I believe in god.  I imagine I might try to avoid answering the question at all, but I wouldn’t say I believed when I don’t.

So while god likely doesn’t exist the idea of god does exist.  The idea of god is very powerful.  The Islam idea of god inspired people to hijack planes and crash them into buildings.  The Christian idea of god inspired the crusades as well as burning people at the stake.  The idea of god also inspires good as well, I know Christians who do charity work and donate to good causes because they believe that is what their god would want.

Of course, the thing about the good deeds, is a person can do good things and help others without a god.  Once people realize there is no afterlife, life becomes far more precious and killing others or oneself become entirely different.

I view religion as very dangerous, and I fear the idea of god.



"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2013, 07:02:12 PM »
Seven patch, remember, god is always good, so all those things are good things.

Okay, i am pulling your leg, welcome to the forum, nice first post.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2013, 07:21:49 PM »
Ah yes I know what you mean :)

Thanks. 

Actually I'm looking forward to having 3 posts, I have an interesting thought I was wondering if others have had and was going to start a new thread for discussion.  I've searched a number of forums and I wasn't able to find any discussions about it.  I'm sure some philosopher wrote about this idea but I am not very knowledgeable on the subject of philosophy. 

Anyway, that will have to wait until tomorrow.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2013, 07:31:30 PM »
Welcome SevenPatch.

Sorry about the Skeptic thing. Most of us are considering suicide right now to get away from his strange ability to both repeat himself and say nothing. I did a google search and found that this talent of his is not actually a skill. But he keeps using it.

I keep asking him if he is clear on any concept, but apparently he isn't able to formulate an answer. Which, ironically, answers the question.

Most of our theists are able to tell us enough about themselves that we can argue points without wondering what the f**k the other guy is talking about. Skeptic's religious view (I've got christianity exactly right, you guys should be able to see that, and you should be following me right now, I don't understand why you aren't, and quit asking for details because I'm too special for that) would be getting old, except we don't know enough about it to be bored. We know enough about him to be bored though.

We'll find better theists soon, I promise.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2013, 07:52:29 PM »
Ah yes I know what you mean :)

Thanks. 

Actually I'm looking forward to having 3 posts, I have an interesting thought I was wondering if others have had and was going to start a new thread for discussion.  I've searched a number of forums and I wasn't able to find any discussions about it.  I'm sure some philosopher wrote about this idea but I am not very knowledgeable on the subject of philosophy. 

Anyway, that will have to wait until tomorrow.

Welcome. I look forward to reading your new thread.

Unfortuantely we don't have any members here with much knowledge of philosophy, but we do have some pretty intelligent laymen.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline median

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2013, 08:27:51 PM »

Welcome. I look forward to reading your new thread.

Unfortuantely we don't have any members here with much knowledge of philosophy, but we do have some pretty intelligent laymen.

Unfortunately, you are severely mistaken. I have two degrees in Philosophy and have been studying the subjects for over 17 years. Sorry!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2013, 08:37:19 PM »

Welcome. I look forward to reading your new thread.

Unfortuantely we don't have any members here with much knowledge of philosophy, but we do have some pretty intelligent laymen.

Unfortunately, you are severely mistaken. I have two degrees in Philosophy and have been studying the subjects for over 17 years. Sorry!

Ahh. Oopsy daisy. Please accept my apologies.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline wright

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2013, 09:02:45 PM »
I don't see much evidence of scientists or science teachers being "scared" of god. I see them avoiding controversy that could and has resulted in school districts being expensively sued for violating the US Constitution. I see their exasperation at having to waste valuable class time confronting evangelizing students. That I see.

We know enough about him to be bored though.

Ditto.

Welcome to the forum, SevenPatch.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2013, 06:24:48 PM »
<rant>

Species: We can show that hippos are related to whales and dolphins, whereas the hyrax (Le:11:5) is related to the elephant (behemoth.) So here we have different species coming from one. (Checkmate, godbotherers!)

</rant>

 "hyrax" translated as "Coney" in my KJV bible. What translation are you using for this? Anyway Lev11:5 is a dietary restriction concerning an animal with undevided hooves. To say a horse relative, maybe. I can't go with elephant though.

The behemoth mentioned in Job 40:15 his tail is like a cedar tree and the chief (as in king of the Jungle) of all God made... I can't say this animal is even related to the other you mention let alone the elephant.

Also with a tail like a cedar tree, it can't actually BE an elephant. I don't see 2 animals coming from one here.

This is a little embarrassing. As Mod I have removed 2 posts of yours that had nothing but the quote of one of Greybeard's posts and no comment from you. I assume this was a glitch with the "post" button.
GB Mod
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 08:41:17 PM by Graybeard »
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2013, 06:39:10 PM »
sorry about post #71. Not sure how that happened. anyway, dad's question. I think to say they fear God is wrong. To admit they have no answers is the true fear. To ever admit science is only creating more questions and problems on a molecular and cellular level where evolution is concerned is the real fear. Look at the "tree of life" I can buy a branch when the roots or even the trunk can be explained as possible.

try this link for an example. some of this a bit heady and there are a few remarks I could have done without but this was still a good read.

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Nam

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2013, 09:43:10 PM »

Welcome. I look forward to reading your new thread.

Unfortuantely we don't have any members here with much knowledge of philosophy, but we do have some pretty intelligent laymen.

Unfortunately, you are severely mistaken. I have two degrees in Philosophy and have been studying the subjects for over 17 years. Sorry!

If you think about it, most of the atheists here (including me) studies philosophy every day: Glossary_of_philosophyWiki.

:)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2013, 09:58:23 PM »
To admit they have no answers is the true fear. To ever admit science is only creating more questions and problems on a molecular and cellular level where evolution is concerned is the real fear.

No it is well know that "I don't know" is that starting point of progress. Stop thinking in agendas and think with common sense. Furthermore, yes answers come up with more questions is also well know. However, each progressive layer firms up the TOE, just not the mechanics behind it completely. This isn't a fear, it is an accepted nature of all questioning.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2013, 03:05:17 AM »
To admit they have no answers is the true fear. To ever admit science is only creating more questions and problems on a molecular and cellular level where evolution is concerned is the real fear.

No it is well know that "I don't know" is that starting point of progress. Stop thinking in agendas and think with common sense. Furthermore, yes answers come up with more questions is also well know. However, each progressive layer firms up the TOE, just not the mechanics behind it completely. This isn't a fear, it is an accepted nature of all questioning.

Did you even read the link I posted?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2013, 09:39:23 AM »
Did you even read the link I posted?
Micro/macro evolution has already been defeated. Surprised you would post it. "macro-evolution" is "micro-evolution" over time...

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2013, 10:37:26 AM »
Did you even read the link I posted?
Micro/macro evolution has already been defeated. Surprised you would post it. "macro-evolution" is "micro-evolution" over time...

so the answer is no, you did not read it. the paper this link points to goes much deeper micro vs macro.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2013, 11:36:29 AM »
so the answer is no, you did not read it. the paper this link points to goes much deeper micro vs macro.
Once they started on macro/micro I knew they did not know anything and were speaking outside their area of expertise. If you feel they have something of value to offer then paraphrase it and I may go back, however, their credibility is shot off of the initial point they tried to make.

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2013, 11:54:31 AM »

so the answer is no, you did not read it. the paper this link points to goes much deeper micro vs macro.

I tried to read it, but when I got to the 5th debunked claim (no evidence for the evolution of the eye) I couldn't take it anymore and had to stop for a few  minutes.  My second attempt showed me a plethora of mistaken claims advocated as truth, willful misinterpretation of terms to advance a point and repeated instances of "if you don't know exactly how X works then all of evolution is wrong!" I did finsh reading it though.


This article is far too large to  be addressed in a single post.Why don't you point out exactly which part of it that you feel supports your point and it can be discussed by the group.
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Offline median

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2013, 06:35:16 PM »
To admit they have no answers is the true fear. To ever admit science is only creating more questions and problems on a molecular and cellular level where evolution is concerned is the real fear.

No it is well know that "I don't know" is that starting point of progress. Stop thinking in agendas and think with common sense. Furthermore, yes answers come up with more questions is also well know. However, each progressive layer firms up the TOE, just not the mechanics behind it completely. This isn't a fear, it is an accepted nature of all questioning.

Did you even read the link I posted?

Please don't post massive articles that make numerous claims (which are false btw), expecting to stump us with it. Post one or two points, in your own words, and let's discuss it. Otherwise, the effort is futile.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline abbysometh1ng

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2013, 07:06:37 PM »
I know that I'm back-tracking a bit in this thread, but as a science teacher in a public school, I thought I could add a little to that end of this discussion.  My field is biology, but I am currently teaching physical science.  I know that in many schools, if the school board is religious or if they are bombarded by a campaign to teach ID or creation science by the community, ugly things can happen in a science classroom.  I'm not referring to a teacher yelling or ranting; what I see is an avoidance of addressing the fact of evolution at all.  Teachers in my state are lucky that we have State Standards that require evolution to be taught, but not all states spell it out unambiguously.  They are instructed to "teach the controversy" as if "alternate theories" have equal weight. 

When I student taught under a biology teacher in a small town high school, years ago, the teacher was explaining an aspect of evolution when one of her students asked her in front of the class if she actually believed that organisms evolved into other organisms.  She replied that she just had to teach this because of the Standards, but that she believed in creationism.  I was appalled and lost so much respect for her. In one sentence, she undermined everything she was teaching about science.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2013, 07:48:43 PM »
ok one topic... This one is not from the paper I linked to though. The termite. A termite eats only wood. However it can't, on it's own, digest cellulose. If it can't digest it's food it dies. Inside the termite is another organism that makes an enzyme that breaks down the cellulose so the termite can digest it. This organism is also an anaerobe. If it were exposed to the oxygen outside the termite it would die. Neither one of these organisms can live without the other. my question is simple. Which evolved first?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2013, 08:30:26 PM »
To admit they have no answers is the true fear.
And why would they be afraid of that?  Scientists are perfectly willing to let anyone who asks know that science isn't about discovering answers in the first place, it's about figuring out how things work.

Quote from: harbinger77
To ever admit science is only creating more questions and problems on a molecular and cellular level where evolution is concerned is the real fear. Look at the "tree of life" I can buy a branch when the roots or even the trunk can be explained as possible.
Again, why would they be afraid of that?  Science isn't about discovering perfect answers.  Answers don't really do anything for you - it's questions that matter.

ok one topic... This one is not from the paper I linked to though. The termite. A termite eats only wood. However it can't, on it's own, digest cellulose. If it can't digest it's food it dies. Inside the termite is another organism that makes an enzyme that breaks down the cellulose so the termite can digest it. This organism is also an anaerobe. If it were exposed to the oxygen outside the termite it would die. Neither one of these organisms can live without the other. my question is simple. Which evolved first?
I have no idea which evolved first.  However, the likelihood is that both evolved separately until they became symbiotes, and then continued evolving based on their new symbiotic relationship.  It's little different from the way that mitochondria evolved until they hooked up with cells.

Offline median

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2013, 08:39:29 PM »
ok one topic... This one is not from the paper I linked to though. The termite. A termite eats only wood. However it can't, on it's own, digest cellulose. If it can't digest it's food it dies. Inside the termite is another organism that makes an enzyme that breaks down the cellulose so the termite can digest it. This organism is also an anaerobe. If it were exposed to the oxygen outside the termite it would die. Neither one of these organisms can live without the other. my question is simple. Which evolved first?

This question is ill formed and represents a common misconception about what evolution actually is. Things do not "evolve first". All life forms are continuously evolving all the time. So far as I've read, the question of how termites evolved is not exactly known quite yet. Doesn't that just stink that sometimes we don't know things? The bigger problem though, is when because we don't know someone says, "Science can't explain it so God did it!" This is a common logical fallacy (Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity). If we don't know something yet, then we should admit it and stop there. Not just posit a god of the gaps.

In case it hasn't already been noted, evolution is supported by lots of other evidence (fossil record and distribution, speciation, genetics, etc). So bringing up one thing that you cannot particularly "see" is not a problem for evolutionary biology. Have you studied biology to any significant degree?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online Graybeard

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2013, 08:44:14 PM »
"hyrax" translated as "Coney" in my KJV bible. What translation are you using for this?

I am disappointed that you ignored the majority of my rant[1] and chose to think that the 'coney' reference is to rabbits, it is a mistake by the writer.

From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Quote
Coney  (Heb. shaphan; i.e., "the hider"), an animal which inhabits the mountain gorges and the rocky districts of Arabia Petraea and the Holy Land. "The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks" (Prov. 30:26; Ps. 104:18). They are gregarious, and "exceeding wise" (Prov. 30:24), and are described as chewing the cud (Lev. 11:5; Deut. 14:7).   The animal intended by this name is known among naturalists as the Hyrax Syriacus. It is neither a ruminant nor a rodent, but is regarded as akin to the rhinoceros. When it is said to "chew the cud," the Hebrew word so used does not necessarily imply the possession of a ruminant stomach. "The lawgiver speaks according to appearances; and no one can watch the constant motion of the little creature's jaws, as it sits continually working its teeth, without recognizing the naturalness of the expression" (Tristram, Natural History of the Bible). It is about the size and color of a rabbit, though clumsier in structure, and without a tail. Its feet are not formed for digging, and therefore it has its home not in burrows but in the clefts of the rocks. "Coney" is an obsolete English word for "rabbit."
So you see that the nearest that the writers of KJV1611 could get to this creature, whom they did not know, was “coney”, or “rabbit”, but it isn’t a rabbit. I’ve seen these critters and they’re cute. (I've never eaten one though.)

Here’s a picture of one:



The caption reads
Quote
8.  Hyrax - This little guy looks like he would be a rodent, but his true relatives are actually much more surprising!  Weighing between about 5 and 10 pounds, the hyraxes are actually fairly closely related to the members of the family Proboscidea, or the elephants and their relatives!  The extant hyraxes have their own family, Hyracoidea, but their ancient ancestors are thought to have branched into the extant hyraxes, the elephants and kin, and most likely the manatee and its relatives!  Hyraxes are found exclusively in Africa and the Middle East.

I am always disappointed when atheists know so much more about the Bible than so-called Christians.
 1. I assume that you agree with it and have now seen the error of your ways
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2013, 08:53:05 PM »
To admit they have no answers is the true fear. To ever admit science is only creating more questions and problems on a molecular and cellular level where evolution is concerned is the real fear.

No it is well know that "I don't know" is that starting point of progress. Stop thinking in agendas and think with common sense. Furthermore, yes answers come up with more questions is also well know. However, each progressive layer firms up the TOE, just not the mechanics behind it completely. This isn't a fear, it is an accepted nature of all questioning.

Did you even read the link I posted?

"Debunking Evolution" being the title, I immediately knew it to be bullshit. Why would I bother with what I know will be a load of agenda laden creationist crap?

But I did glance within the first paragraph... the term microevolution is a creationist falsehood akin to saying pennies cannot add up to dollars.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline wright

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Re: Why are scientists afraid of god?
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2013, 08:54:20 PM »
ok one topic... This one is not from the paper I linked to though. The termite. A termite eats only wood. However it can't, on it's own, digest cellulose. If it can't digest it's food it dies. Inside the termite is another organism that makes an enzyme that breaks down the cellulose so the termite can digest it. This organism is also an anaerobe. If it were exposed to the oxygen outside the termite it would die. Neither one of these organisms can live without the other. my question is simple. Which evolved first?

Evolution is a process that acts continually and simultaneously on all organisms, so asking "which evolved first" is a bit nonsensical. In the case of termites and their cellulose-digesters, both evolved independently but found a mutually-beneficial relationship. It would have been only marginally useful at first, but any variation that offers an organism an advantage in surviving long enough to beget the next generation will be selected for.

Creationists seem to have a hard time grasping that evolution proceeds in gradual increments, not dramatic leaps and bounds. Keep in mind that the major morphological changes (like the development of birds from their dinosaur ancestors) took place over multiple millions of years, with successive generations looking little different from each other. Only looking back from our current perspective does time seem to compress.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius