Author Topic: The Root of All Evil  (Read 2356 times)

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Offline neopagan

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2013, 08:06:56 AM »
To believe that it has remained generally intact is much more probable and probably more likely.  I don't mean to infer that the text has changed much, just that the wording has.  For example.  The black cat jumped in the pool.  VS  There was this crazy cat, which was black, and it did the stupidest thing I have ever seen.  It jumped into my pool!  While the wording is different the premise is the same.

I think you have left out textual corruption - be it intentional corruption or not. The long list of scribes and copyist who handed down the text "changed" it either for their own reasons ("corrections" they wanted to make, downright errors) or changes they were told to make (theological, political, etc). Your example assumes what we have today is correct and the words are all that can be fiddled with and it all comes out right. I think that is virtually impossible... even with the gospel of thomas :)

Either way, it is all irrelevant, since we have no originals of anything, and for all we know  in the OP topic, it was the love  of mommy that was the root of all evil and had something to do with teaching against worshipping the virgin Mary...?

In your example, change "in my pool" to "on the fool."  Different story now.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nam

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2013, 05:38:22 PM »
Let go of my Eggo. ;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2013, 05:42:39 PM »
The root of all evil is this thing called ego.

So it's you who's causing all this evil... OK

No. It's a shared commodity. Just like those two wolves  :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2013, 06:06:05 PM »
The root of all evil is this thing called ego.
I don't buy this.  It sounds like unbalanced pop-psychology to me.

What it sounds like  and what it is maybe two different things, depending on the state of the listener and his filter and creative interpretations.

Let's take Plato and his three character types then seeing you guys don't like wolves. Plato has a philosopher king (good wolf), a lover or gain and a lover of pride (the other wolf or shoulder angel). Now, what fuels the lover of gain and pride, if not self interest. Or put another way if you have authentic love for another, are you thinking of the self. Is the authentic lover a lover of gain or pride.  Give it some time, if it's not immediately obvious. But i think you'll determine all things classed as "evil" are born out of self interested behaviours and a choice between the shoulder angels. 

Quote
There are plenty good things that come from a healthy ego.

From a long term perspective, nothing is healthy about ego.

Quote
Ego helps young adults strive for independence.

Young adulthood is were egos thrive. Meditation and love of their others and kindness would serve them better. And according to Plato, courage, temperance, justice and wisdom  and authentic freedom  (lose of the fear of  death) is a far worthy and sustainable prize.

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Ego can help people fight back when being abused or bullshitted.
That's not ego. That's a sense of injustice and equal worth. the Go(o)d wolf. Assuming they aren't fighting to defend an egoic notion. It's the cornered rat syndrome.

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Ego motivates a lot of the individual achievements that make the whole human species so amazing in science, sport, arts, politics, and business.  Try running a sales team full of people low on ego  &)  You can train people to listen and respond to customers, but without strong ego they won't negotiate effectively and have trouble bouncing back from rejection.  On the cutting edge of vital research - what could we expect from a research team whose leader doesn't yearn to be the first to publish  :o or the first to discredit or better earlier discoveries?  Would art be as good if signing it was outlawed?  &)

Have you taken a global perspective of how well were travelling at the minute. What about leaders like Mandela, Ghandi, Einstein etc... Ego? Now let's think about leaders like Bush, Putin and Kim ill what's his name ?

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Yes there are negative (evil) aspects to ego, not the least of which is religious know-it-alls whose primary hope to satisfy their hunger for respect is spruiking 'personal insights' into the thinking and ways of invisible deities – prophets, clergy and apologists parasiting off the imaginary glory and powers of the mysterious invisible and unverifiable, all for their own little slice of ego-heaven right here on this earth.
I told you prophecy is a fabrication and I offered to prove it. We all have ego's. At least those willing to face reality :-)

Offline William

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2013, 02:13:42 AM »
There are plenty good things that come from a healthy ego.
From a long term perspective, nothing is healthy about ego.

I would like you to back up that claim please. Show me evidence that all levels of ego are unhealthy in the long term.

I think you've inadvertently fallen for religious propaganda that vilifies ego and automatically equates the concept with excessive pride.  We both know religion prefers sheep. 

Meanwhile I will back up my claim that healthy ego produces good. 

I think we already agree that a big ego is bad - no need to go there right now. 

Without a healthy mature ego, how would a good person find the confidence to volunteer for a leadership role or take charge when nobody else will? 
How would we find the audacity to ask a relative stranger out on a date – but then restrain our instinctual desires to just jump on them for sexual gratification at first opportunity?
What makes us bold enough to state our case when we think somebody else is wrong? 
What gives us the chutzpah to ask the boss for a raise?

There is plenty of evidence that low ego strength is bad or leads to dysfunctional outcomes:
Here's a finding that low ego people don't cope well with the challenge of cancer - perhaps they believe they are not worthy.
Quote
Results showed that psychosocial adaptation to cancer was related to a patient's ego strength. Es correlated positively with a patient's use of effective coping strategies.
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/40/8/585.short

Here, low ego is implicated as part of the mix in pathological gambling:
Quote
Compared to the standardization group norms on these instruments, pathological gamblers are significantly deficient in both ego strength and one type of achievement motivation, Ac. Clinical impressions of gamblers in treatment suggest that narcissistic characteristics are a major problem in treatment and that future research should attempt further detailed studies of ego structure in order to refine treatment objectives.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01019626

Here, low ego people have incorrect perceptions of themselves - correlated with eating disorder.
Quote
A group of 15 female anorexic patients had a significantly lowered mean Es when compared with a normal control group. The patients' overestimation of body width at shoulders, waist and hips was significantly different from the normal group;
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022399978900247

Here, a vulnerable ego is a factor in suicide risk:
Quote
The ego with its enormous complexity (Murray, 1938) is an essential factor in the suicidal scenario. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines ego as "the part of the mind that reacts to reality and has a sense of individuality." Ego strength is a protective factor against suicide. Suicidal people frequently exhibit a relative weakness in their capacity to develop constructive tendencies and have likely been weakened by a steady toll of traumatic life events (e.g., loss, abuse) (Zilboorg, 1936). A vulnerable ego, thus, correlates positively with suicide risk.
http://www.suicidefindinghope.com/content/suicide_notes


So excessive ego and low ego both have their problems.  I put it to you (and you said that we all have ego) that in the middle ground ego can be healthy and mature, facilitating the best functioning of individuals within a society.  The healthy level isn't an ego squashed and suppressed because it's been culturally or religiously painted as the font of evil. IMHO we are better off trying to understand ego and ways of ensuring it is healthy.
   
Here is at least one balanced way of understanding and managing our ego – it is the concept of self-compassion:
Quote
Research is presented which shows that self-compassion provides greater emotional resilience and stability than self-esteem, but involves less self-evaluation, ego-defensiveness, and self-enhancement than self-esteem. Whereas self-esteem entails evaluating oneself positively and often involves the need to be special and above average, self-compassion does not entail self-evaluation or comparisons with others. Rather, it is a kind, connected, and clear-sighted way of relating to ourselves even in instances of failure, perceived inadequacy, and imperfection.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00330.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

I think that making an effort to know our own egos and how to love ourselves comes with a bonus – a useful social tool i.e. self-awareness that gives us a basis for reciprocity and a skill at dealing with other people’s egos. 

Good people managers are extremely good at nurturing the egos of subordinates.  By contrast I also refer you to famous work on “ego-depletion”:
Quote
The scientists individually told each member of another group of randomly selected people, “I hate to tell you this, but no one chose you as someone they wanted to work with.” Believing absolutely no one wanted to hang out with them, people in this group then learned they would have to work by themselves. Punched in the soul, their self-esteem dripping with inky sludge, the people in the unwanted group proceeded to the main task. .... <snip>.....  The subjects learned they could eat as many as they wanted while filling out a form commonly used in corporate taste tests. .... <snip>.....  They predicted the rejects would gorge themselves, and so they did. On average the rejects ate twice as many cookies as the popular people.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2012/04/17/ego-depletion/

Plenty published research on the negative impacts of ego-depletion:
Quote
Results revealed a significant effect of ego depletion on self-control task performance. Significant effect sizes were found for ego depletion on effort, perceived difficulty, negative affect, subjective fatigue, and blood glucose levels.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/4/495/

If ego is evil, why would depleting it produce mediocrity and low energy levels? 

Finally I’d like to refer you to a book by a fine Australian researcher, Hugh Mackay: “What Makes Us Tick?”.   Mackay identifies the common desire underlying much of our behaviour: “This is the desire to be taken seriously.”   
I can’t see that desire coming from or feeding back into anything but the ego.  I see it as a force for good – a key driver of creativity and of expression.  And knowing that also strikes me as handy for getting the best out of relationships with others.
Git mit uns

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2013, 03:11:49 AM »
There are plenty good things that come from a healthy ego.
From a long term perspective, nothing is healthy about ego.

I would like you to back up that claim please. Show me evidence that all levels of ego are unhealthy in the long term.

I'd like lots of things to. But hey :-)

Quote
I think you've inadvertently fallen for religious propaganda that vilifies ego and automatically equates the concept with excessive pride.  We both know religion prefers sheep. 
Try meditating. And on sheep, I seem to stand alone on my theory. Now you guys, you're more like a church and a flock :-)
Quote

Meanwhile I will back up my claim that healthy ego produces good. 
Good job. Let's see how you go.
Quote

I think we already agree that a big ego is bad - no need to go there right now. 

One for me :-)

Quote

Without a healthy mature ego, how would a good person find the confidence to volunteer for a leadership role or take charge when nobody else will? 
How would we find the audacity to ask a relative stranger out on a date – but then restrain our instinctual desires to just jump on them for sexual gratification at first opportunity?
What makes us bold enough to state our case when we think somebody else is wrong? 
What gives us the chutzpah to ask the boss for a raise?

First mature and ego don't belong in the same paddock let alone sentence. Those volunteers are being **** not egoic. You do realize that Plato said that there are four measures of his philosopher king. Wisdom, courage, temperance and Justice. I'm going to through in one more, authentically selfless. He also said that the **** and true fear not death.

Regarding the dating game depends on which is in play. Sex is a strong motivator as is true love.

A sense of Justice for the boss and our cause.

GOT#1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

Quote

There is plenty of evidence that low ego strength is bad or leads to dysfunctional outcomes:
Here's a finding that low ego people don't cope well with the challenge of cancer - perhaps they believe they are not worthy.
Quote
Results showed that psychosocial adaptation to cancer was related to a patient's ego strength. Es correlated positively with a patient's use of effective coping strategies.
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/content/40/8/585.short


I think in your desperation to ignore a **** things existence, you are confusing the authentic role of ego. After all there just classifications. Which one fits the wider set of circumstances accurately .

Quote

Here, low ego is implicated as part of the mix in pathological gambling:
Quote
Compared to the standardization group norms on these instruments, pathological gamblers are significantly deficient in both ego strength and one type of achievement motivation, Ac. Clinical impressions of gamblers in treatment suggest that narcissistic characteristics are a major problem in treatment and that future research should attempt further detailed studies of ego structure in order to refine treatment objectives.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01019626

Or just ban gambling. BTW, what are the most frequent "long term" affects of gambling as a percentage of the population. What's that you say? They all make money. I don't think so  :-)

Quote
 
Here, low ego people have incorrect perceptions of themselves - correlated with eating disorder.
Quote
A group of 15 female anorexic patients had a significantly lowered mean Es when compared with a normal control group. The patients' overestimation of body width at shoulders, waist and hips was significantly different from the normal group;
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022399978900247

Another one for me :-)

Quote
 
Here, a vulnerable ego is a factor in suicide risk:
Quote
The ego with its enormous complexity (Murray, 1938) is an essential factor in the suicidal scenario. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines ego as "the part of the mind that reacts to reality and has a sense of individuality." Ego strength is a protective factor against suicide. Suicidal people frequently exhibit a relative weakness in their capacity to develop constructive tendencies and have likely been weakened by a steady toll of traumatic life events (e.g., loss, abuse) (Zilboorg, 1936). A vulnerable ego, thus, correlates positively with suicide risk.
http://www.suicidefindinghope.com/content/suicide_notes


Ego strength is the same thing as spiritual maturity. Another one for me. It just a difference in terminology. Check out ego strength in your research. I'll bet it is correlated to changed choices.

Quote
 
So excessive ego and low ego both have their problems.  I put it to you (and you said that we all have ego) that in the middle ground ego can be healthy and mature, facilitating the best functioning of individuals within a society.  The healthy level isn't an ego squashed and suppressed because it's been culturally or religiously painted as the font of evil. IMHO we are better off trying to understand ego and ways of ensuring it is healthy.
   
Here is at least one balanced way of understanding and managing our ego – it is the concept of self-compassion:
Quote
Research is presented which shows that self-compassion provides greater emotional resilience and stability than self-esteem, but involves less self-evaluation, ego-defensiveness, and self-enhancement than self-esteem. Whereas self-esteem entails evaluating oneself positively and often involves the need to be special and above average, self-compassion does not entail self-evaluation or comparisons with others. Rather, it is a kind, connected, and clear-sighted way of relating to ourselves even in instances of failure, perceived inadequacy, and imperfection.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00330.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
 

And I put it to you. There are no levels, Just immature and Mature Choices driven either by self interest or selflessness. No imagining. no complexity and above all no excuses. just personal responsibility and accountabilities. You do realize a lot a people make a lot of money from complexity. Who you ask? . Bill gates for one, perhaps. he took the real simple state of duality. On and Off and built an empire  :-)   

Quote
 
I think that making an effort to know our own egos and how to love ourselves comes with a bonus – a useful social tool i.e. self-awareness that gives us a basis for reciprocity and a skill at dealing with other people’s egos. 
 

Yes, that's true. But some times you need to shake a tree to get the apple to land on Newton's head. Kindness doesn't always need to be sugar coated methinks (no spaces).

Quote
 
Good people managers are extremely good at nurturing the egos of subordinates.  By contrast I also refer you to famous work on “ego-depletion”:
Quote
The scientists individually told each member of another group of randomly selected people, “I hate to tell you this, but no one chose you as someone they wanted to work with.” Believing absolutely no one wanted to hang out with them, people in this group then learned they would have to work by themselves. Punched in the soul, their self-esteem dripping with inky sludge, the people in the unwanted group proceeded to the main task. .... <snip>.....  The subjects learned they could eat as many as they wanted while filling out a form commonly used in corporate taste tests. .... <snip>.....  They predicted the rejects would gorge themselves, and so they did. On average the rejects ate twice as many cookies as the popular people.
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2012/04/17/ego-depletion/
 

No **** people Managers, choose wisely and have Plato's wisdom and foresight. They Know the Two forces at play and can work this to everyone's advantage in the long term. There are those who will  abuse this though as well.  Particularly the prideful ones. This is why Plato wisely alerts us to the subtle ego of pride, as does Jesus et al (not the biblical readings though). There are those volunteers that are broken hearted by not getting their annual awards :-)

Unenlightened, we are fragile and at the mercy of these things. Enlightened people aren't troubled by these games. Do you think such tests would apply to the Dalai Lama. Could he be punched in  the soul.  Or nelson Mandela I think not.
 
Quote
 
Plenty published research on the negative impacts of ego-depletion:
Quote
Results revealed a significant effect of ego depletion on self-control task performance. Significant effect sizes were found for ego depletion on effort, perceived difficulty, negative affect, subjective fatigue, and blood glucose levels.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/4/495/


Quote
   
If ego is evil, why would depleting it produce mediocrity and low energy levels? 

Finally I’d like to refer you to a book by a fine Australian researcher, Hugh Mackay: “What Makes Us Tick?”.   Mackay identifies the common desire underlying much of our behaviour: “This is the desire to be taken seriously.”   
I can’t see that desire coming from or feeding back into anything but the ego.  I see it as a force for good – a key driver of creativity and of expression.  And knowing that also strikes me as handy for getting the best out of relationships with others.

Everyone else seems to suggest duality.

Plato and Victor Hugo. Perhaps take a look at them  :-)

I have removed gratuitous references to wolves - you have had your ration of wolves (and several other people's too.) GB Mod

I would encourage others not to refer to these creatures


« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:33:29 AM by Graybeard »

Offline William

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2013, 03:30:58 AM »
I would like you to back up that claim please. Show me evidence that all levels of ego are unhealthy in the long term.
I'd like lots of things to. But hey :-)

Sorry, you lose.  If you won't back up your claims then your response here is just obfuscation and not worthy of my attention or effort.

I doubt anyone here will take you seriously - not until you find some etiquette and humility.
Git mit uns

Offline Astreja

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2013, 10:16:36 AM »
(Springy G unlurks and kicks aside a pile of gnawed Canis lupus bones)  EES, why don't you subcontract your wolf problem to dragons?  Works for Me.  ;D
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Offline neopagan

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2013, 11:07:20 AM »
^^^ or a talking snake...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2013, 11:13:19 AM »
eartheconomyspirit's take on religion, in a nutshell.

He has gone over a lot of religious writings both in and out of the bible.

The ones he likes are true.
The ones he dislikes are false.

And why others don't see it that way confounds him.

So he's no different from any other believer. Though he's pimped his religion a bit more than average.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline BornAgainAtheist

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2013, 04:50:29 PM »
So if we are really arguing semantics over words we need to find a few Scholars who speak things like 2000 year old Hebrew.(Yes I did steal some of this from an earlier post I wrote)


So John 8:32 should read "And you will know the 2000 year old Hebrew, and the 2000 year old Hebrew will set you free".   ;)
My hair is a bird.  Your argument is invalid.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2013, 09:32:35 AM »
If the root of all evil is the love of money, there must have been money in the Garden of Eden, where according to Christians sin was brought into the world.  With that in mind, on what day did God create money?  And if it is the root of all evil I have to scratch my head and ask why he created it in the first place.  Doh.

At one time, before I retired, I was involved in investigations that revolved around the social system in northern Pakistan.  The main source of survival was agriculture and the way to understand individual problems was to trace back the family trees to see where the dispute over the land had taken place. Land changed hands mainly on death and at marriage. In those days, local money was in short supply and much was traded, so the motto was “The love of land is the root of all evil.”

The area prospered and money became commoner but the disputes continued as the new money overthrew old families and traditions.

So the situation had not changed but a medium of exchange had changed the established order. We therefore see that “The love of money is the root of all evil.” is merely a repeat of various parables and “sage words” indicating that the love of earthly pleasures and riches is not the way to heaven.

If we re-translate this, we have a Zen-like philosophy that minimalism is probably a sensible way to go. Low-carbon-footprint, low needs, low consumer requirements to be happy.

There is some truth in it. If you want a new car, after you have bought one then, a few years later, you will want a new one again. Want a bigger computer/ newer TV/the latest cell phone? You are probably buying into consumerism and an endless and pointless cycle. Even the most ardent consumerist will agree that we are not "better persons" just because we have the latest and greatest. To quote Ecclesiastes[1]: "Ec:5:10: He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity."

Those who are truly obsessed with these things yet can’t afford them, or those who sell them and seem to need more and more money, probably do commit or create evil to satisfy their own love of material things.

Just so you don’t think I’m suggesting that we all live in caves and eat uncooked grubs and berries, it’s like all things -> everything in moderation: it never hurt anyone.
 1. I like Ecclesiastes, it is written by a depressed and grumpy old man who is pissed off with the stupidity of the world - I can identify with him except where he bangs on about God.
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Re: The Root of All Evil
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2013, 09:59:58 AM »
^Yep.  I have a four-year old laptop (typing on it right now, as a matter of fact), and it works fine.  I have no intentions of replacing it until it breaks down past my ability to repair, or until it becomes unable to do what I need it to do.  Now, I do have other computers, such as a desktop that's two or three years older than that, and a desktop that's two or three years old period, but all three of them are in use - I didn't buy them to throw away perfectly good computer equipment.