Author Topic: "Fear" of heaven?  (Read 1473 times)

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Offline Willie

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2013, 01:26:03 AM »
Maybe the big surprise regarding Heaven is that the people that get to go there won't be people (human) at all once they are there. Perhaps the Heavenly realm could be eternally barable if we could realize it as our conscious selves but experience it from a far superior point of view that involves senses we have yet to imagine. Our present reality is to us what out 5 senses make of it, but in the "heavenly state" maybe reality takes on a completely different meaning as it could be perceived and experienced from vastly superior points of view.
With that in mind heaven could be a microscopic world set up on a pile of shit that we would be persuaded by our senses to perceive as a golden paradise of unending pleasure.

What heaven looks like:


Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2013, 02:58:37 AM »
Some of the things that make me happy; riding motorcycles stupidly fast, talking about bikes with friends, fixing up my bikes, drinking with my friends, golf, sailing, watching movies with the kids, lots of sex, thinking about sex with women I know and trying to make it happen.
Trouble with a heaven, is that quite a few of the things that make me 'me' can no longer happen. The thrill with bikes is that it can go terribly wrong and the fun is in making sure that doesn't happen, i.e. there's risk. In heaven, from what I've gathered, I can't hurt myself. With many of our activities, risk makes the fun.
Can I still drink a gallon of ale with friends, do stupid stuff, then laugh til I cry the next time I see them talking about stuff we did?
Fixing up my bikes; do I just wave a magic wand and my bike is customised the way I want it? Where's the fun in that? Where's the feeling of achievement in making seized brakes work or getting out that sheared screw?
Anyone experienced the thrill of an affair?! Yes, I know it's 'wrong'. But is this no longer possible?! How long could we spend with our partners? Thousand years? Million? There's going to be divorce and affairs unless what makes us 'us' is changed.
Can I still sail? Can the boat sink if I screw up? Can I be in danger?
Some of the best laughs I've had has been at other people's expense. Can we no longer do this? Are we banned from being deliciously bitchy sometimes?!
I'm sure my Mum would want me around a lot; but would I want to be around? I'd want my kids around, but they'd have their own things to do. One of us is going to be disappointed in our heaven.
There's a Playstation game where you can do anything; jump off buildings, fly, blow stuff up. Great fun. For an hour or so then it gets a bit boring.
Now I can guess some of the pro-heaven comments will be something like; "You cannot imagine the joys in heaven, you will not need this earthly stuff." But this Earthly stuff is what makes me 'me'.

It seems to me that if there were a heaven, our way of (after)life would change us so much we would no longer recognize ourselves.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Jontom10

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2013, 03:04:12 AM »
With regards to Muslim heaven..

..anyone care to guess at what happens after each lucky man finally shags his way through the 72 virgins ? Do they get replaced with another 72 perhaps?
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2013, 03:17:17 AM »
With regards to Muslim heaven..

..anyone care to guess at what happens after each lucky man finally shags his way through the 72 virgins ? Do they get replaced with another 72 perhaps?

...and will the virgins be forced? Do they have free will? What if another martyr takes a shine to one of his mate's virgins? What if he's gay? When you start to think about it, this whole heaven thing just doesn't add up.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline neopagan

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2013, 08:02:29 AM »
^^^ absolutely right, it makes no sense when you get down to the details, whether it is heaven here on earth, a new and improved earth, harping on clouds, an endless orgy, etc, etc... There is nothing you could do for eternity that would suffice, unless you go the dreaded robot route (which makes YHWH an evil puppet master, more to his nature anyway).
 Also, heaven would need a tap out bell or an "in case of bored as fuck, break glass" box holding a shotgun where you could blast yourself to oblivion in year 900+
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2013, 11:23:44 AM »

GOT #19 Jesus said,

Out of curiosity, why are you quoting non-canonical writings?  While I agree, they have no more or less weight than the canonized stuff, most godbotherers draw a line with the bible.
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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2013, 11:33:23 AM »
He has a site where he orgasms over the GOT. In it, he redefines what a "wall of text" is, and tosses in cute little quotes from a variety of people, all of which he ignores, if his behavior is an indicator.

I'd tell you where it is, but the NSA would start watching me. And besides, I'm not in the mood to chase it down. It isn't worth the effort.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline neopagan

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2013, 02:46:32 PM »

GOT #19 Jesus said,

Out of curiosity, why are you quoting non-canonical writings?  While I agree, they have no more or less weight than the canonized stuff, most godbotherers draw a line with the bible.

screwtape, don't ask... we"ll have to hear the fucking old cherokee and the wolf story again...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2013, 01:44:45 AM »

GOT #19 Jesus said,

Out of curiosity, why are you quoting non-canonical writings?  While I agree, they have no more or less weight than the canonized stuff, most godbotherers draw a line with the bible.

The GOT was found in 1945 (at least 1700+ years old) and rejected by the Church. I wan't to find out why. It has 114 Jesus sayings. 61 are in the bible but tweaked somewhat or in a different context. The 53 that aren't  put a whole new spin on the Go(o)d interpretation. Nothing of any obvious harm mind you. So I decided to dig into the History and found that all the prophecy and miracles where made up to serve Empire and Authority. That led to the book. What's this thing called Go(o)d?.  That research took about a year and was also my way of proving to this crowd that Religions and atheists are barking up the wrong tree and never the twain will meet. 

This is a summary of my findings.

http://eartheconomyspirit.net/PRVW/WIITTCGHandBook.htm

Don't worry about PP and Neo, they have flies in their ointment and I think they may be a little lazy when it comes to any research. I did offer assistance, but alas. These things pass. Unless a raw nerve (our perhaps Nerva) has been exposed.  :-)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 02:07:35 AM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2013, 01:47:31 AM »
He has a site where he orgasms over the GOT. In it, he redefines what a "wall of text" is, and tosses in cute little quotes from a variety of people, all of which he ignores, if his behavior is an indicator.

I'd tell you where it is, but the NSA would start watching me. And besides, I'm not in the mood to chase it down. It isn't worth the effort.

I think you'll find your way wrong. Time will tell. The NSA may be an issue though, but it seems that according to your assessment it's nonsense, so why would they bother, I wonder.   :-)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 02:09:16 AM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline TripedalInstincts

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2013, 02:42:11 AM »
Living a finite life (after this one, it's over) would make everything we do in this life extremely important...whereas an unending life makes everything less meaningful; a "bad" choice could always be made up for after enough time, time we won't always have within a finite lifetime.
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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2013, 08:57:12 AM »
He has a site where he orgasms over the GOT. In it, he redefines what a "wall of text" is, and tosses in cute little quotes from a variety of people, all of which he ignores, if his behavior is an indicator.

I'd tell you where it is, but the NSA would start watching me. And besides, I'm not in the mood to chase it down. It isn't worth the effort.

I think you'll find your way wrong. Time will tell. The NSA may be an issue though, but it seems that according to your assessment it's nonsense, so why would they bother, I wonder.   :-)

Well, their algorithm for bullshit is real effective.

And I don't claim to be right. But I am far less wrong than you.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2013, 06:19:25 PM »
He has a site where he orgasms over the GOT. In it, he redefines what a "wall of text" is, and tosses in cute little quotes from a variety of people, all of which he ignores, if his behavior is an indicator.

I'd tell you where it is, but the NSA would start watching me. And besides, I'm not in the mood to chase it down. It isn't worth the effort.

I think you'll find your way wrong. Time will tell. The NSA may be an issue though, but it seems that according to your assessment it's nonsense, so why would they bother, I wonder.   :-)

Well, their algorithm for bullshit is real effective.

And I don't claim to be right. But I am far less wrong than you.

Let's put to a real test instead of your imagination shall we :-)

Online Nam

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2013, 09:44:48 PM »
^still trying to figure out if you're real. Or, is that "for real"?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2013, 10:41:00 PM »
Let's put to a real test instead of your imagination shall we :-)

Yoda, is that you?
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2013, 01:06:05 AM »
Let's put to a real test instead of your imagination shall we :-)

Yoda, is that you?

Hey, I thought you weren't interested. Off you go :-)

Offline Truth OT

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2013, 12:12:16 PM »
^^^ absolutely right, it makes no sense when you get down to the details, whether it is heaven here on earth, a new and improved earth, harping on clouds, an endless orgy, etc, etc... There is nothing you could do for eternity that would suffice...........

That would depend on what the limitations are one would face in eternity. An eternity of monotony in a limited Heaven or limited to a revamped Earth may in fact get old, but suppose that eternity would have no such limits? 

The concept of eternal life is a concept that I believe should be more fully embraced and sought after. We as people really don't seem to value it enough. When you think of the vastness of the universe and all the near infinite possibilities for discovery and life experiences that may exist and can never be experieced unless one has the opportunity to have an immortal existence in a 'enhanced' or more evolved form that may or may not be human-like.

Offline neopagan

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2013, 12:36:42 PM »
TruthOT, do you mean sort of like an endless Star Trek voyoage to other places?

Wouldn't we want our human faculties intact for such explorations - pain, fear, happiness, mystery, etc?  All the xian versions of heaven seem to have our energies directed toward god - not some self-fulfilling activity (since that is all sinful supposedly). Either way, where would home base be - heaven, your mind, star particles?

Maybe I am not following you, so clarify what you would see this looking like, if you could.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Truth OT

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2013, 01:35:36 PM »
TruthOT, do you mean sort of like an endless Star Trek voyoage to other places?

Wouldn't we want our human faculties intact for such explorations - pain, fear, happiness, mystery, etc?  All the xian versions of heaven seem to have our energies directed toward god - not some self-fulfilling activity (since that is all sinful supposedly). Either way, where would home base be - heaven, your mind, star particles?

Maybe I am not following you, so clarify what you would see this looking like, if you could.

My response had totally dismissed the concepts of religious eternity scenarios and was intended to discuss the reasons why embracing the pursuit of eternal life would be worthwhile. 

Offline neopagan

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2013, 02:00:48 PM »
TOT,

Ok, religious eternity aside (hey, I can do that), how does it all work in your view?  I have no point of reference for when I did not knowingly exist (pre birth), so I have none for after death. It all seems, although not religious, steeped in the same sort of mystery.  What is the "enhanced or... non-human like" existence you describe? 

Btw, I'm not challenging your viewpoint - just curious. I'm fairly non-scientific, so it may take baby steps. :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline epidemic

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2013, 02:03:39 PM »
^^^ absolutely right, it makes no sense when you get down to the details, whether it is heaven here on earth, a new and improved earth, harping on clouds, an endless orgy, etc, etc... There is nothing you could do for eternity that would suffice...........

That would depend on what the limitations are one would face in eternity. An eternity of monotony in a limited Heaven or limited to a revamped Earth may in fact get old, but suppose that eternity would have no such limits? 

The concept of eternal life is a concept that I believe should be more fully embraced and sought after. We as people really don't seem to value it enough. When you think of the vastness of the universe and all the near infinite possibilities for discovery and life experiences that may exist and can never be experieced unless one has the opportunity to have an immortal existence in a 'enhanced' or more evolved form that may or may not be human-like.

I am not sure I need to visit a billion billion stars to kinda get the gist of it.  After a while I think I would be like..... "ohhhh wow a super nova, just like the last 6000 super novas I saw a while back.  Oh my look a nebula that looks like a cat when you look at it from the right side.  Ok now just let me die. 

We are talking about not billions of years nor trillions of years but infinite years.  There would be no amount of freedom to enjoy the universe that would keep me entertained.

I loved TV as a kid, I loved watching scary movies with my grandma.  I got scared watching the wizzard of oz, godzilla and "Them".  Now I find myself less and less entertained by TV and movies.  I know the gags before they show up on screen.  it has only taken me 47 years to get to this point.  How many years could I watch sun's expode for and planets coalesce for?  How many times can I watch rise and fall of life on given planets before I say "ummm, been there done that"

Offline wright

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2013, 02:34:59 PM »
I am not sure I need to visit a billion billion stars to kinda get the gist of it.  After a while I think I would be like..... "ohhhh wow a super nova, just like the last 6000 super novas I saw a while back.  Oh my look a nebula that looks like a cat when you look at it from the right side.  Ok now just let me die. 

We are talking about not billions of years nor trillions of years but infinite years.  There would be no amount of freedom to enjoy the universe that would keep me entertained.

I loved TV as a kid, I loved watching scary movies with my grandma.  I got scared watching the wizzard of oz, godzilla and "Them".  Now I find myself less and less entertained by TV and movies.  I know the gags before they show up on screen.  it has only taken me 47 years to get to this point.  How many years could I watch sun's expode for and planets coalesce for?  How many times can I watch rise and fall of life on given planets before I say "ummm, been there done that"

A point. Is the human mind really capable of dealing with immortality, existence continuing indefinitely? Aside from the physiological problems to be overcome, what about the psychological aspects (which are of course part and parcel of our physiology)?

How much memory can your unenhanced brain store without having problems of accuracy and retrieval (not that our memories are terribly accurate to begin with)? And when you start enhancing it, how do you avoid changing it beyond what you consider acceptable? As brain injuries show, changing the physical structure often changes our very sense of self.

It would seem to me that to achieve true immortality, a person would unavoidably become very different from the standpoint of those who knew them before the process started. That isn't to say those changes would necessarily be for the worse, but that centuries or millennium of new memories and experiences could effectively make a person unrecognizable to even their younger self.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2013, 02:41:32 PM »
TOT,

Ok, religious eternity aside (hey, I can do that), how does it all work in your view?  I have no point of reference for when I did not knowingly exist (pre birth), so I have none for after death. It all seems, although not religious, steeped in the same sort of mystery.  What is the "enhanced or... non-human like" existence you describe? 

Btw, I'm not challenging your viewpoint - just curious. I'm fairly non-scientific, so it may take baby steps. :)

Life extension technologies that help move and continues our evolution to the higher levels is what I have in mind. Trying to discover ways that we can personally experience as well as seemingly affect the reality we are a part of endlessly would be the goal for me. In the eternal life scenario I hope for, no resurrection is needed as we will have evolved to the point where death by natural causes is a thing of the past and we will also be so advanced that we won't have to be subject to the limitation of only being able to exist on this Terran rock.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2013, 02:54:28 PM »
It would seem to me that to achieve true immortality, a person would unavoidably become very different from the standpoint of those who knew them before the process started. That isn't to say those changes would necessarily be for the worse, but that centuries or millennium of new memories and experiences could effectively make a person unrecognizable to even their younger self.

Persistent existance as they person I am now with all the natural limitations that are a part of the human experience would undoubtedly get to the point of insufferability. That is one reasons why as we pursue life extention we must simultaneously pursue human enhancement. We currently have limited abilities as it relates to perceiving the world we live in. If our perceptive abilities were enhanced and things that are 'dark' to us suddenly became more apparent then that reality would make a life that was confined to this world all that much more exciting and tolerable.

Additionally, why assume that within this seemingly infinite universe we can even experience all possible experiences? It may be the case that there is always at least one more experience out there even after we've experienced what we consider to be everything. There may be senses beyond the 5 we currently enjoy that can provide us with experiences we would desire to have for an innumeral period of time. By the same token, there may not be, but in my mind, we owe it to ourselves as living beings to do all we can to find out how limited or limitless the life experience this cosmos offers can be.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2013, 02:44:47 AM »
Some of you  atheists seem more hung up on, or attached to perhaps, the religious imaginings of these  things called Go(o)d, Devils and  Heaven than the Religious folks. I'm pretty certain there all just metaphors. Not something to bother with so directly. Is it because they are easy targets, do you think. Just a thought   ;)

So....what is "heaven" a metaphor for, exactly?

Interpretation - Paradise (or heaven if you prefer) , for Jesus, maybe within the context of our life. In meditation perhaps you should be silent in thought but alert or aware to the five senses, smell, touch, sight, hearing and taste. Allow the left brain to stand silent for a moment, perhaps.

So your contention is that there is no afterlife, is that correct?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: "Fear" of heaven?
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2013, 04:53:51 AM »
With regards to Muslim heaven..

..anyone care to guess at what happens after each lucky man finally shags his way through the 72 virgins ? Do they get replaced with another 72 perhaps?
The girls all do a Hyman Maneuver and revert back to being virgins.[1]
 1.  see what I did there.
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