Author Topic: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?  (Read 2321 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« on: August 22, 2013, 06:29:54 AM »
As a side issue in an earlier topic and by looking at the topic, “What is your religious position?” it is clear that some of us accept a vanishingly small chance that there are gods, the justification for this rests upon the few instances throughout history of such statements as “All swans are white.” followed by the embarrassment of the discovery of the Black Swan.

Of course, had the statement been “So far, all the swans that we have seen have been white.” The statement would have been popularly shortened to “All swans are white.” In the same manner as we say, “All dogs have four legs” only to have some idiot come along and tell you either about the dog he knows that has three legs after an accident or the one born in Mexico with 6 legs.
 
Karl Popper introduced FalsifiabilityWiki thus:

Quote
By the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonym to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.

The concern with falsifiability gained attention by way of philosopher of science Karl Popper's scientific epistemology "falsificationism". Popper stresses the problem of demarcation—distinguishing the scientific from the unscientific—and makes falsifiability the demarcation criterion, such that what is unfalsifiable is classified as unscientific, and the practice of declaring an unfalsifiable theory to be scientifically true is pseudoscience.

Popper was OK in what he said, and I admit to not having read all his works[1] but the error in the reasoning, which he must have seen, is that when we add the word, “normal” we have “So far, all the normal swans that we have seen have been white.” which, as far as using it as the killer argument goes, is pretty anodyne and is not going to get people sitting down in amazement.

The main reason for the weakness of this argument is that the human being likes to see patterns and then invent a reason for the pattern. So all Popper is saying is that stopping thinking before the real answer is likely to get you into trouble. So if the statement had been:

“So far, all the normal swans that we have seen have been genetically disposed towards being white but an alteration of gene TGFB[2] would cause this to be otherwise.” We would have something to get hold of[3].

All this boils down to the universality of a statement, i.e. a generalisation: As long as we know it is a generalisation, then we can accept it in broad terms. And this is what is meant by “All swans are white.”

So, “There are no gods; there never have been and never will be.” could be seen as a generalisation were it not for the fact that a god, to be a god has to have “supernatural powers”.

You will see the difference between 1. “All swans are white.” And 2. “A god must have supernatural powers[4]”: Whereas the first does not define a swan or whiteness[5], the latter does define[6] a god.

The only problem is what we mean by “supernatural.” And this, I suggest, is “not presently understood.”

Any god worth the title should have the ability to explain any power they have; once they have done that, then they have no supernatural powers. Devoid of supernatural powers, they are not a god.

Does this mean that there can be gods, albeit temporary ones? Ones whose “godness” will evaporate on explanation? No, it does not, otherwise any human action we do/did not understand would create a god.

This method of creating gods exists today: you should be aware of the idea of the Cargo CultWiki: The supernatural (i.e. not understood) method by which a person apparently made cargo appear out of the sky, and following that person’s departure, and thus the cessation of the arrival of cargo from the sky, he is revered as a god.

I therefore am puzzled as to why anyone should think that there is even a vanishingly small chance of there being gods.
 1. or even any of them
 2. I just invented that one
 3. except for the questions, “How and why does that work?”
 4. Ghosts are said to have supernatural powers, but this does not mean that ghosts = gods. So gods are merely a subset of those things that have supernatural powers.
 5. the meanings of which are pretty clear
 6. to a degree
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline William

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 07:59:39 AM »
I think it all hinges on our definition of the category of "god", and also whether or not benevolence is part of that definition.

There are probably other intelligent life forms somewhere in our universe, and possibly beyond our known universe - I don't know.  These beings may or may not be superior to us.  Our existence here on earth may or may not be contingent on something they did in the past or which they currently control - seems unlikely but I honestly don't know.

If they are just independent alien beings who are as surprised to detect us as we are to detect them, then they cannot be gods.  Even if they are superior to us and somehow "lord" over us from the time of our first encounter, they can't be "gods", only a conquering enemy.  But if they have been knowingly (to them) responsible for and in control of any vital part of our circumstances then they could fall into what I would respect as a "god" category. 

I kept tree frogs in a tank for while.  The tank, including glimpses of the space and lights beyond the tank, was their known universe.  It was up to me to catch fruit flies in a trap and release them into the frog's tank every day.  They had to catch and eat the fruit flies in their tank all by themselves.  From their POV, they did not know I was their captor, but if they could say anything about me they would probably say I was a kind of god. They knew quite well that my approach often coincided with the appearance of food, or a topping up of their water. Unbeknownst to them I had the power to release them into a better environment before they might die (which I didn't because I'd brought them here as tiny tadpoles from 300 miles away where the genetics and viruses are different to my local frogs.)

Anyway, my point is, if I met superior beings and it became apparent they had exercised some control over my circumstances, or could alter my circumstances through their own decisions, I think they'd fit into the category of "god" for me.  I would pay close attention to their instructions, and I'd seek clarification of their intentions for me.  If they were benevolent I would cooperate, but if I understood they were abusing me I would seek a way to escape from their controlling power.

I consider the possibility of such "gods" to be close to zero probability.  And thinking about it, even if I do meet beings from elsewhere we'll probably both say WTF :o in our own languages and treat each other with such suspicion that it will likely result in a fight the death simply because of fear of the unknown  :o       

The one thing that I'm comfortably quite sure of is that any "god" category beings that may turn up won't remotely resemble or behave like BibleGod, or Jesus, or any of the hundreds of other gods invented by mankind thus far. 
Git mit uns

Offline Nick

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2013, 08:47:10 AM »
No.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline nebula

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2013, 09:44:05 AM »
I therefore am puzzled as to why anyone should think that there is even a vanishingly small chance of there being gods.

My view is that there is a God but there isn't much that can be accurately thought or said about it due to limitations of the human brain.   Something that perhaps comes close is to say that God or 'the Absolute,' is the 'ground of all being' or 'basis for all existence.'

Here is an analogy.   Fish communicate with each other through pheromones, sounds and body language but what they can conceive of and express is limited.   The existence of fish depends on physics, chemistry, biology, ecology etc.   And what can they think or communicate about these grounds for their existence?   Nothing or very little.   

The main limitation of our thought and language is that they're dualistic.   It's impossible to conceive of 'absolute non-dualistic oneness.'   However, apparently, people who are really good at meditation can somehow 'experience' or 'feel' this oneness in some way, though it is completely ineffable.   
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 09:47:03 AM by nebula »

Offline stuffin

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2013, 09:47:58 AM »
I cannot accept any of the Gods humankind has tried to define thoughout its written history.

After that, I do not believe there is anything in the universe that fits our desciption of God(s), or some other Supernatural Entity having matchless power. Could my beliefs be dis-proven? Certainly, but most likely not until mankind has answered every question there is to be answered.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 10:05:19 AM »
The vanishingly small chance for "god" to exist is based upon the exponentionally vague characteristics that any sentient creature at any point during the duration of the universe would attribute to define what a god is.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 10:08:48 AM »
My view is that there is a God but there isn't much that can be accurately thought or said about it due to limitations of the human brain.   Something that perhaps comes close is to say that God or 'the Absolute,' is the 'ground of all being' or 'basis for all existence.'
My view is that there is a <insert any arbitrary arrangement of letters or symbols> but there isn't much that can be accurately thought or said about it due to the limitations of the human brain.  Something that perhaps comes close is to say that <insert any arbitrary arrangement of letters or symbols> or '<insert second set of arbitrarily arranged letters or symbols'', is the '<insert third set of arbitrarily arranged letters or symbols>' or '<insert fourth set of arbitrarily arranged letters or symbols>'.
Quote
Here is an analogy.   Fish communicate with each other through pheromones, sounds and body language but what they can conceive of and express is limited.   The existence of fish depends on physics, chemistry, biology, ecology etc.   And what can they think or communicate about these grounds for their existence?   Nothing or very little.   
This is true.  Our minds and methods of communication can be fairly limiting, and I grant that it certainly possible that there are aspects of reality that can never be understood or conveyed.  But if there is something that you cannot, in principle, comprehend, in what manner are you able to either claim to know anything about it or claim to believe it to be true?
Quote
The main limitation of our thought and language is that they're dualistic.   It's impossible to conceive of 'absolute non-dualistic oneness.'   However, apparently, people who are really good at meditation can somehow 'experience' or 'feel' this oneness in some way, though it is completely ineffable.
I seriously still don't understand this whole 'dualistic/non-dualistic' thing you keep talking about.

You know another explanation for why 'absolute non-dualistic oneness' is impossible to conceive?  The arrangement of letters and symbols is simply incoherent and conveys no information, in the same way that it is impossible to conceive of 'ou&35990--ffeijNNNise!~<< with cherries on magic coffee RaDDSssi/'.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 10:10:13 AM »
Quote
Any god worth the title should have the ability to explain any power they have; once they have done that, then they have no supernatural powers. Devoid of supernatural powers, they are not a god.

I don't follow this statement .

Ok god explains I can do anything because I am god.

That is a super power by sheer force of thought I can create life.


I create a temporal nano vortex create energy and do this by will alone. 

No one else can do this because I do not will it.


Offline bertatberts

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 10:15:13 AM »
I therefore am puzzled as to why anyone should think that there is even a vanishingly small chance of there being gods.
I personally have to err on the side of caution when it comes to that vanishingly small chance, only because I cannot travel the universe or the ether to look for a god, So it would be infantile to say with certainty, that a  god doesn't exist, just as it is to say that dragons don't exist somewhere else in the universe. This does not mean I believe they do, only that beyond a shadow of a doubt, I can only say I don't know. It is extremely unlikely that anything godlike or even a god exists.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 10:19:35 AM »

I therefore am puzzled as to why anyone should think that there is even a vanishingly small chance of there being gods.

Waaaaaay to intellectual GB. People don't necessarily think when it comes to god(s). Thought is replaced by conditioning and hope. Societal conditioning about the hope a godly power exists that is able protect us and make our dreams come true and that that goldy power knows about and cares for us as individuals makes the prospect of god belief attractive, endering, and widely accepted.

Very few people, especially believers are even inclined to get into the weeds and pick up, study, and know the God handbook that is the Bible. People's understanding of God is based not on scholarship but rather on their personal desires and convictions that rest on the foundation that a powerful and caring God does in fact exist.

In the grand scheme of things god belief is the voucher that gives the existence of man an ultimate level of credibility and purpose. It is sort of an innate outgrowth of our own vanity that has us create gods and a supreme being that in a very real way is no more than the personification of mans ideals and hopes for himself.

Until we become gods in our own right, we will always find a place for belief in there being at least a small change of gods existing as we will likely continue to hold out hope that they can save us from our mortal plight and make us like them in some form or fashion.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 10:26:14 AM »
The one thing that I'm comfortably quite sure of is that any "god" category beings that may turn up won't remotely resemble or behave like BibleGod, or Jesus, or any of the hundreds of other gods invented by mankind thus far.

If an alien intelligence with abilities that seemed miraculous to us was able to pick up on our radio and TV waves and wanted to come here and take our home world, the best way for them to do so with our cooperation would be to imitate Jesus and run with the whole 2nd coming narrative.

Offline nebula

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 01:14:18 PM »
I seriously still don't understand this whole 'dualistic/non-dualistic' thing you keep talking about.


That entire sentence is completely dualistic as is every thought, every concept, and every person, place or thing.   Here are the dualities in your sentence:

I/you…or me/not me…or self/other

seriously/jokingly

still/newly…or continue to/now

don't/do

understand/not understand

this/that

whole/part….whole/not whole

dualistic/non-dualistic

thing/nothing

you/me…you/not you

keep/don't keep

talking/not talking

about/not about

No thought or idea makes any sense unless it is contrasted with something else.   For example, existence only makes sense when it is contrasted with non-existence.   Without a notion of non-existence, you can have no notion of existence.

Our reality IS duality.   That is how it works, it's dualistic.   There is this galaxy/that galaxy, this solar system/that solar system, this planet/that planet, this person/that person, this idea/that idea etc.   

So, my definition of God is that it is the nondual basis of duality, or the inconceivable basis of conceivability. <--That isn't in any way nonsensical gibberish.   It's completely coherent.       

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 01:33:18 PM »

Our reality IS duality.   That is how it works, it's dualistic.   There is this galaxy/that galaxy, this solar system/that solar system, this planet/that planet, this person/that person, this idea/that idea etc.   
     

I'd say it would be better to state that our ability to perceive the reality we think we are a part of is overwhelmingly based in dualities. That our perception makes it seem dualistic has very little to no bearing on whether reality exists or is or is not dualistic.

Offline nebula

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 01:49:07 PM »
I'd say it would be better to state that our ability to perceive the reality we think we are a part of is overwhelmingly based in dualities. That our perception makes it seem dualistic has very little to no bearing on whether reality exists or is or is not dualistic.

OK, our perception is dualistic.   

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 02:51:22 PM »
The only definitions we have for gods are human ones. We are inherently limited in what we can imagine, and it is, by definition, impossible for us to conceive anything beyond that.

So are there gods of the sort that humans have described as they invented their religions? No.

Are there intelligent (or beyond) powers far beyond our own that we can neither perceive or detect?  I've no idea. By definition, none of us do. And while I doubt that to be the case, it doesn't matter what I thfnk. Either those powers are out there or they are not.

They may exist and not know about us, they may exist and not care about us, they may exist and be controlling us. Again, I doubt it, but I have nowhere enough info to decide. I can't have that much info. As a human in the 21st century, we as of now we have too many limits to know otherwise.

I'm going to go with with my base assumption that there are none, because of my/our limits and the lack of clues otherwise.

So my guess is no, there are none. But I can't say that it is impossible.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline neopagan

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 04:05:11 PM »
If an alien intelligence with abilities that seemed miraculous to us was able to pick up on our radio and TV waves and wanted to come here and take our home world, the best way for them to do so with our cooperation would be to imitate Jesus and run with the whole 2nd coming narrative.

Our only hope would be that they get caught up watching Law & Order or The Simpsons and never get around to invading us...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline One Above All

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 04:07:31 PM »
Not by my definition.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 04:42:20 PM »
If an alien intelligence with abilities that seemed miraculous to us was able to pick up on our radio and TV waves and wanted to come here and take our home world, the best way for them to do so with our cooperation would be to imitate Jesus and run with the whole 2nd coming narrative.

Our only hope would be that they get caught up watching Law & Order or The Simpsons and never get around to invading us...

If I had the time and attention span I'd write a script for a motion picture that I'd title 'The Parousia'. I'd get Michael Bay to direct it and have Spielburg bring it to life. I'd of course play black Jesus  and star as the avatar the aliens use to trick the human populace. I'd have the protagonist be an actor playing the part of the resurrected RaymondKHessel telling the world as eloquently as only Ray could how stupid we were for falling for following my alien-fakegod avatar ass to our own oblivion. 

Offline neopagan

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2013, 04:47:35 PM »
^^^ and 60% of the popluation would still bow down to you. :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 04:51:46 PM »
Quote
Any god worth the title should have the ability to explain any power they have; once they have done that, then they have no supernatural powers. Devoid of supernatural powers, they are not a god.

I don't follow this statement .

A god should know more than us. Even if it doesn't (and it would be a pretty useless god) it should, nevertheless, be able to explain how it manages to, for example, turn water into wine, raise the dead, grant immortality, be in several places at once, etc.

I know how I walk, saw wood, drive a car, how to give artificial resuscitation, do card tricks, speak other languages and can explain all these to people who think any of them is supernatural.

You can't fly, but a bird can. You know how a bird flies, so you don't think it is supernatural. You don't know how to turn water into wine or make animals talk. But if you did, those things would not be supernatural, would they?

Once we have an answer to what is apparently "magic" it is no longer magic and no longer "supernatural."

Has that helped?

Quote
Ok god explains I can do anything because I am god.

That is not an explanation.

Quote
That is a super power by sheer force of thought I can create life.
OK, what do you have that enables that? This requires channeling energy. How is it done?

Quote
I create a temporal nano vortex create energy and do this by will alone.

How does "will", which has no substance, react as you say? What exactly are you doing (apart from making this stuff up)?

Quote
No one else can do this because I do not will it.

How does that "will" thing work?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:57:51 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 05:00:28 PM »
Absolutely no objective evidence whatsoever = no god(s).
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Offline xyzzy

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2013, 05:41:31 PM »
Gods? If we are talking about these supposedly supernatural beings that have been invented and named by earlier societies in order to (a) explain what they currently didn't understand, (b) to provide comfort and solace in dealing with emotionally difficult events, e.g. death, or (c) as a way to control otherwise errant behaviour?

No, not a chance.
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Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2013, 05:58:34 PM »
As usual, your near sighted approach, sees you all Barking up the wrong tree.  The fundamental error is that you think this thing called Go(o)d has to be a being of some sort. Correctly you acknowledge that this cannot be so. Yet you still persist in going round and round on the issue. So obviously, your either not satisfied with your own position (still seeking understanding) or your trying to convert others to your tribe. What's the stats on that by the way?

Try thinking about this thing called Go(o)d without personification. Let it be what ever common sense wills. Now it can be, just a Go(o)d wolf. A metaphor for joy, love, peace, humility, kindness, authentic selflessness etc...
 
“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

And philosophers, religious folk, spiritualist etc.. are all talking about these wolves and adding the MAGIc because we also are blessed with creative imaginations.

Much ado about nothing really, particularly if you consider the role of meditation in the authentic stuff   :-)

Offline neopagan

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 06:32:42 PM »
^^^ so your answer was "no" for gods but yes for fuzzier woo-like concepts?
The wolf tale still is based on the god meme
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline One Above All

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 06:34:25 PM »
<snip>

I don't know about you, but I refuse to bow down to something less than what I consider perfect. In other words, for a god to be a god, IMO, it must be alive.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 07:25:44 PM »
As usual, your near sighted approach, sees you all Barking up the wrong tree.  The fundamental error is that you think this thing called Go(o)d has to be a being of some sort. Correctly you acknowledge that this cannot be so. Yet you still persist in going round and round on the issue. So obviously, your either not satisfied with your own position (still seeking understanding) or your trying to convert others to your tribe. What's the stats on that by the way?

Try thinking about this thing called Go(o)d without personification. Let it be what ever common sense wills. Now it can be, just a Go(o)d wolf. A metaphor for joy, love, peace, humility, kindness, authentic selflessness etc...
 
“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

And philosophers, religious folk, spiritualist etc.. are all talking about these wolves and adding the MAGIc because we also are blessed with creative imaginations.

Much ado about nothing really, particularly if you consider the role of meditation in the authentic stuff   :-)

By changing definitions and shifting goalposts you can have a god be anything you want, ergo a god or gods do exist, well your version of a god at least.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2013, 07:42:34 PM »
As usual, your near sighted approach, sees you all Barking up the wrong tree.  The fundamental error is that you think this thing called Go(o)d has to be a being of some sort. Correctly you acknowledge that this cannot be so. Yet you still persist in going round and round on the issue. So obviously, your either not satisfied with your own position (still seeking understanding) or your trying to convert others to your tribe. What's the stats on that by the way?

Try thinking about this thing called Go(o)d without personification. Let it be what ever common sense wills. Now it can be, just a Go(o)d wolf. A metaphor for joy, love, peace, humility, kindness, authentic selflessness etc...
 
“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

And philosophers, religious folk, spiritualist etc.. are all talking about these wolves and adding the MAGIc because we also are blessed with creative imaginations.

Much ado about nothing really, particularly if you consider the role of meditation in the authentic stuff   :-)

By changing definitions and shifting goalposts you can have a god be anything you want, ergo a god or gods do exist, well your version of a god at least.

Correct. Now prove these things aren't Go(o)d and that they don't exist. :-)

Offline stuffin

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2013, 07:46:49 PM »
As usual, your near sighted approach, sees you all Barking up the wrong tree.  The fundamental error is that you think this thing called Go(o)d has to be a being of some sort. Correctly you acknowledge that this cannot be so. Yet you still persist in going round and round on the issue. So obviously, your either not satisfied with your own position (still seeking understanding) or your trying to convert others to your tribe. What's the stats on that by the way?

Try thinking about this thing called Go(o)d without personification. Let it be what ever common sense wills. Now it can be, just a Go(o)d wolf. A metaphor for joy, love, peace, humility, kindness, authentic selflessness etc...
 
“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

And philosophers, religious folk, spiritualist etc.. are all talking about these wolves and adding the MAGIc because we also are blessed with creative imaginations.

Much ado about nothing really, particularly if you consider the role of meditation in the authentic stuff   :-)

My common sense wills it to be nothing.


Your good and bad metaphor places two gods in us. If we feed the good god he wins, if we feed the bad he wins. That would make us all Lord and Lucifer at the same time.

I assume this inner energy you attribute to Lord and Lucifer is our soul/spirit and is the part that goes to heaven when our physical existence ends?

Could you elaborate on how that works? And explain exactly how you know our soul/spirit lives on after our mortal selves perish?

Unless of course you don't believe in the afterlife.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: Is there any possibility at all that there are gods?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2013, 08:35:31 PM »
As usual, your near sighted approach, sees you all Barking up the wrong tree.  The fundamental error is that you think this thing called Go(o)d has to be a being of some sort. Correctly you acknowledge that this cannot be so. Yet you still persist in going round and round on the issue. So obviously, your either not satisfied with your own position (still seeking understanding) or your trying to convert others to your tribe. What's the stats on that by the way?

Try thinking about this thing called Go(o)d without personification. Let it be what ever common sense wills. Now it can be, just a Go(o)d wolf. A metaphor for joy, love, peace, humility, kindness, authentic selflessness etc...
 
“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

And philosophers, religious folk, spiritualist etc.. are all talking about these wolves and adding the MAGIc because we also are blessed with creative imaginations.

Much ado about nothing really, particularly if you consider the role of meditation in the authentic stuff   :-)

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My common sense wills it to be nothing.

Ridiculous comment. Your saying that love and joy don't exist? All I've done is claim that these things are what people have lumped under the class of Go(o)d. It's just a tag for some go(o)d stuff.


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Your good and bad metaphor places two gods in us. If we feed the good god he wins, if we feed the bad he wins. That would make us all Lord and Lucifer at the same time.

Not mine. That belonged to an old Indian. Its also the same  metaphor that Plato used. Although Plato broke the bad wolf into a lover of gain and a lover of pride. Plato's Go(o)d was the lover of wisdom.  However your conclusion is correct. We are that, we are. Look around and consider the effects of ego on all that is classed as evil. Greed, Lust, et al are all self interested behaviours.
     
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I assume this inner energy you attribute to Lord and Lucifer is our soul/spirit and is the part that goes to heaven when our physical existence ends?

No inner energy thingee. Just a will to be community spirited vs a will to be selfish. No God a part from us and certainly no devil other than an ego. Wouldn't personally have a clue about heaven. All i can say is that Jesus (not in the bible) says its a matter to resolve in life. Although my dad had a near death experience in hospital. When revived he said he felt a wonderful sense of peace. And he's just a good man not a man of God.   

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Could you elaborate on how that works? And explain exactly how you know our soul/spirit lives on after our mortal selves perish?

As above. Who knows for sure. Best leave that question til we die. Knowing or pondering these things doesn't add a jot to the life experience. 

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Unless of course you don't believe in the afterlife.

For the most part correct. like I said it's irrelevant to the living context.  Apparently the real Jesus would agree (Note: you will not find this in any bible even though it is recognized as over 1700 years old)

59 Jesus said, "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."