Author Topic: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?  (Read 3522 times)

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Offline wright

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2013, 02:53:44 PM »
I base this on that abiogenesis seems to only have happened once in the 4.54 billion years the Earth has been around, and therefore I would consider a rare event.

I agree that the universe is large enough that carbon might not always be the basis for life everywhere (though because of its relative abundance and ease of energy-carrying reactions probably more common than alternatives), but something else occurred to me.

It would seem to me that abiogenesis needn't be rare (especially over billions of years on a given planet / location), but that once it happens it precludes any later such events. A common creationist question is why we don't see it happening now; the obvious answer is 3.5 billion years of well-established competition.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2013, 11:31:23 AM »
A common creationist question is why we don't see it happening now; the obvious answer is 3.5 billion years of well-established competition.

I remember KCrady once answered this along the lines of "if a squid were to take fledgling steps toward becoming a land animal, it would not get very far.  As soon as it flopped itself onto a beach a far better adapted dog would come up and eat it without much trouble."

An evolving thing needs space where it can evolve.  Humans would not have been able to evolve with all those far better adapted dinosaurs in the way.  It was only after they were eliminated that mammals had the space to become dominant.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2013, 12:32:10 PM »
Right.  An already-established ecosystem is not going to be a friendly place for newly-evolved creatures.  Same reason that if you introduced flint-wielding tribal hunters into modern America, they wouldn't last very long at all.

It's exactly the opposite problem that you get with things like kudzu, mongooses, goats, or even the common housecat - when they're introduced to new ecosystems, then can easily wreak havoc on that ecosystem, specifically because there's nothing in that ecosystem that can effectively keep them in check.

Offline screwtape

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2013, 02:00:21 PM »
It's exactly the opposite problem that you get with things like kudzu, mongooses, goats, or even the common housecat - when they're introduced to new ecosystems, then can easily wreak havoc on that ecosystem, specifically because there's nothing in that ecosystem that can effectively keep them in check.

You left off humans.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2013, 10:40:22 PM »
I remember KCrady once answered this along the lines of "if a squid were to take fledgling steps toward becoming a land animal, it would not get very far.  As soon as it flopped itself onto a beach a far better adapted dog would come up and eat it without much trouble."

There is an animated science evolution series, called The Future is Wild, that posits that the next intelligent land animal will derived from squid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_Is_Wild

They do lots of animations of squid swinging through the trees, and big elephant sized squid.

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the obvious answer is 3.5 billion years of well-established competition.

The series posits a global extinction event.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline wright

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2013, 12:05:53 AM »
There is an animated science evolution series, called The Future is Wild, that posits that the next intelligent land animal will derived from squid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_Is_Wild

They do lots of animations of squid swinging through the trees, and big elephant sized squid.

Loved that series.

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the obvious answer is 3.5 billion years of well-established competition.

The series posits a global extinction event.

I was actually referring to the creationist question of why abiogenesis isn't still happening now, rather than well-developed animals competing with each other. Modern microbial life would (indeed, perhaps still does) simply assimilate the result of any new abiogenesis event.

It's still a good point, though. The Chicxulub impact cleared away all the big dinosaurs and reptiles, leaving our ancestors a wide-open playing field.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2013, 09:14:16 AM »
There is an animated science evolution series, called The Future is Wild, that posits that the next intelligent land animal will derived from squid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Future_Is_Wild

They do lots of animations of squid swinging through the trees, and big elephant sized squid.

I saw that!  Creeped me out.  I am anti-cephalopod.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Can Both Evolution & Creationism be Wrong?
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2013, 09:43:35 AM »
I saw that!  Creeped me out.  I am anti-cephalopod.
If you liked that imagery, you'll probably love this:



What intelligent 'squid' could very well look like.  Complete with using the equivalent of tridents (forks), flails, and blowpipes.  But don't feel too bad, screwtape.  They'd probably be just as creeped out by you as you are of them.  Especially once they saw how you moved.

Interestingly enough, the males are the little guys (the ones you can barely see behind the cowl of the giant mother in the center).  The normal-sized ones are 'female' neuters.  I have no idea how that matches up to actual squid biology, but it makes sense that this could develop.