Author Topic: Behemoth?  (Read 1907 times)

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Offline Robob 123

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Behemoth?
« on: August 20, 2013, 10:59:04 AM »
Possibly Job, Elihu, or a contemporary of Job wrote the things in Job 40:v 15-18. A peculiar thing to write about:

Job 40:15-18 NIV
[15] “Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. [16] What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! [17] Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. [18] Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron.

Just thought this would make some interesting conversation... I found it interesting that the description has an uncanny resemblance to that of a dinosaur, and this was written several thousand years ago. What do you think? Do the descriptions match with any animals we know today?

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 11:23:03 AM »
The description also has an "uncanny" resemblance to an elephant, rhinoceros or hippopotamus.
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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 11:34:18 AM »
Just thought this would make some interesting conversation... I found it interesting that the description has an uncanny resemblance to that of a dinosaur, and this was written several thousand years ago. What do you think? Do the descriptions match with any animals we know today?

Which dinosaur?  There were thousands of different species of dinosaur, so why only that particular one?

One would think that a T-Rex or Allosaur wouldv'e gotten mention.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nick

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 11:37:32 AM »
If T Rex he would not have been around to write about it.  And where did they keep these writings.  The tent library?
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 11:39:06 AM »
Possibly Job, Elihu, or a contemporary of Job wrote the things in Job 40:v 15-18. A peculiar thing to write about:

Job 40:15-18 NIV
[15] “Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. [16] What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! [17] Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. [18] Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron.

Just thought this would make some interesting conversation...

Indeed it does.  I personally have always found it interesting that YECs will often trumpet that this passage "proves" that man existed alongside dinosaurs, but they are always very, very careful to ignore the next creature discussed in Job, immediately after the behemoth.

Job 41:12-34 NIV
Quote
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
    its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
    Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
    ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
    tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
    that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
    they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
    its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
    sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
    as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
    and flames dart from its mouth.

22 Strength resides in its neck;
    dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
    they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
    hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
    they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
    nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
    and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
    slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
    it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
    leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
    and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
    one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
    a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
    it is king over all that are proud.”

{bold mine}

If apologists are to insist that the first creature discussed is referencing an actual historical beast, then they would also seem obliged to say the same thing about the second creature, and yet they never seem to do so.  Can't imagine why not.  *cough*
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Offline Emily

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 11:40:11 AM »
I can't help but be reminded of Douglas Adams duck quote for some reason:

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 11:45:05 AM »
clearly, Job had been through a lot and had taken to drinking. 
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 11:49:52 AM »
" resemblance to an elephant, rhinoceros or hippopotamus.

I considered those three, but then the description of the tail being like a cedar tree doesn't make sense for those three animals.

I'm not out to prove anything, it just seems interesting, as well as the part of the scripture mentioning a leviathan. It's just a possibility that dinosaurs and animals we have today existed in parallel.  :)

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 11:52:34 AM »
In fact, I've always wondered what exactly could be the leviathan spoken of in the book of job. Tell me!

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 11:53:34 AM »
" resemblance to an elephant, rhinoceros or hippopotamus.

I considered those three, but then the description of the tail being like a cedar tree doesn't make sense for those three animals.

I'm not out to prove anything, it just seems interesting, as well as the part of the scripture mentioning a leviathan. It's just a possibility that dinosaurs and animals we have today existed in parallel.  :)
Parallell universes perhaps. On this earth in this universe not so much. How about addressing Pianodwarfs post.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:55:41 AM by mrbiscoop »
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Offline Emily

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 11:54:41 AM »
I think you've watched one too many episodes of the Flintstones. The last dinosaurs died out like, 100 million years ago, or something like that, long before the animals we have today. But, you're not arguing that dinosaurs and animals today lived together, you are saying that dinosaurs and humans have lived together which is far from the truth.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 11:56:07 AM »
also quite possible probable "Job" made shit up... kinda like Stephen King although less entertaining
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 11:59:13 AM »
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline neopagan

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2013, 12:00:02 PM »
how many dinosaur skeletons have thet found in the middle east with humans in their jaws? (using creationist logic there... like why are there still monkeys?) :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 12:04:45 PM »
" resemblance to an elephant, rhinoceros or hippopotamus.

I considered those three, but then the description of the tail being like a cedar tree doesn't make sense for those three animals.

I'm not out to prove anything, it just seems interesting, as well as the part of the scripture mentioning a leviathan. It's just a possibility that dinosaurs and animals we have today existed in parallel.  :)
Parallell universes perhaps. On this earth in this universe not so much. How about addressing Pianodwarfs post.

You're right, it's worth looking at. It seems like the description of a dragon, which seems really quite strange, in contrast to the behemoth, which there are some creatures that could fit the criteria.

But the dragon like description is very interesting. We've found no fossil like it, and so it's very mysterious, this contrast between a seemingly mythical dragon and a a behemoth with a familiar description.

However, they describe the behemoths behaviour as well, as dwelling in the river, and grazing on the land like an ox. Perhaps they observed this for themselves.

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 12:08:20 PM »
There is the possibility that it was just something imaginary. But nah, not if it's in the bible.   ;D
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Emily

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 12:08:42 PM »

But the dragon like description is very interesting. We've found no fossil like it, and so it's very mysterious,

If no fossils (for a dragon or a behemoth)  have been found they why believe it even existed in the first place?
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 12:08:57 PM »
I think elephants destroyed the temple in Jerusalem... they were everywhere

the bible also talks about unicorns and other mythical creatures, robob.  Dragons even pop up in revelation, so go figure
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 12:11:13 PM by neopagan »
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Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 12:13:09 PM »
I think you've watched one too many episodes of the Flintstones. The last dinosaurs died out like, 100 million years ago, or something like that, long before the animals we have today. But, you're not arguing that dinosaurs and animals today lived together, you are saying that dinosaurs and humans have lived together which is far from the truth.
.

The thing is, can we be sure of that? Because there's also the entirely different topic of the age of the earth. I'd encourage all of us to look up the young earth theory as well as conventional theories of the planets age. It might be an eye opener into what creation scientists think of the geology of the earth, as well as their viewpoint on wildlife and nature

Offline neopagan

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 12:15:26 PM »
there's a young earth creationist theory? Well, call me toast and butter my bum... Anyone here ever heard of it? 

What creationists "think" and what science shows are two different realities...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 12:17:00 PM by neopagan »
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Offline Emily

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 12:15:53 PM »
The thing is, can we be sure of that? Because there's also the entirely different topic of the age of the earth. I'd encourage all of us to look up the young earth theory as well as conventional theories of the planets age. It might be an eye opener into what creation scientists think of the geology of the earth, as well as their viewpoint on wildlife and nature

Ugh, no thank you! While it's a different topic there is no evidence to support a "young earth theory".
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Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 12:16:23 PM »
Thing is, it may have been a combination of the behemoth being real, and the dragon being mythical. It's an odd thing.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 12:18:45 PM »
Thing is, it may have been a combination of the behemoth being real, and the dragon being mythical. It's an odd thing.

That would be one of a host of explanations.  Most of them much more convoluted than Job made shit up. :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 12:25:23 PM »
The thing is, can we be sure of that? Because there's also the entirely different topic of the age of the earth. I'd encourage all of us to look up the young earth theory as well as conventional theories of the planets age. It might be an eye opener into what creation scientists think of the geology of the earth, as well as their viewpoint on wildlife and nature

Ugh, no thank you! While it's a different topic there is no evidence to support a "young earth theory".

How about the discovery at the time of the aftermath of the eruption of Mount St. Helens that, contrary to previous ideas about how fine layers of sediment were made, and in what length of time they were formed, showed that within even an hour, distinguishable layers of sediment were made by 8 meters of ash.

It just illustrates that some geological processes can take much less time than we think, and therefore, it becomes less certain of how long these things take, and therefore, the age of the earth is more uncertain.

Offline Willie

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 12:31:28 PM »
" resemblance to an elephant, rhinoceros or hippopotamus.
I considered those three, but then the description of the tail being like a cedar tree doesn't make sense for those three animals.

Why not? It says that it "sways like a cedar", not that it was as big or as strong as a cedar.

But from the context, it seems much more likely that Behemoth is just plain mythical.


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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 12:32:38 PM »
and therefore, the age of the earth is more uncertain.

May I ask, before we go any further, what kind of evidence you would need to adjust your worldview to that of an ancient earth? Because if you refuse to accept evidence, or don't have the ability or wherewithall to alter your worldview, there's not much point to conversing with you.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2013, 12:50:20 PM »
and therefore, the age of the earth is more uncertain.

May I ask, before we go any further, what kind of evidence you would need to adjust your worldview to that of an ancient earth? Because if you refuse to accept evidence, or don't have the ability or wherewithall to alter your worldview, there's not much point to conversing with you.

Hi, i see what you mean, and I reckon to change my ideas, I would have to find out firstly the degree of accuracy of dating methods ( apart from carbon dating, which is pretty accurate to a few thousand years)

There is a ton of stuff about the good points and the bad points of using dating methods, because the accuracy of these are always under scrutiny, because of the questioning of the original ratio of the parent to daughter isotope ratio in lava, the discussion of whether radioactive decay has always been constant throughout time, that sort of thing.

Sorry I went on so much, but that is probably how I would reconsider my world view

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2013, 12:53:52 PM »
" resemblance to an elephant, rhinoceros or hippopotamus.
I considered those three, but then the description of the tail being like a cedar tree doesn't make sense for those three animals.

Why not? It says that it "sways like a cedar", not that it was as big or as strong as a cedar.

But from the context, it seems much more likely that Behemoth is just plain mythical.

When it says sway like a cedar, I thought  it represented a heavy, slow movement of a large tree swaying in the wind, not the somewhat small tails other creatures have to swat insects
(And for the hippo's kinda nasty habit of propelling its poo everywhere...)

Offline Robob 123

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Re: Behemoth?
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2013, 12:58:10 PM »
By the way, sorry, I could be making myself clearer. I'm just a freshaar!