Author Topic: Ferguson  (Read 715 times)

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Offline Nick

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2014, 07:36:31 PM »
Several players on the NFL St. Louis Rams came out onto the field today with hands up in support of the demonstrators.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Online Nam

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2014, 08:30:14 PM »
Several players on the NFL St. Louis Rams came out onto the field today with hands up in support of the demonstrators.

Were they fined?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2014, 01:52:25 PM »
Did I say it was?  Let's take a look at my posts...hmm, I don't see anything that would indicate that.  So I guess the answer is no, no I did not say stealing crap was acceptable.  Neither did I imply it.  Where you got that idea, I do not know. My point was this even if this kid did all the stuff they said he did, it was not worth killing him over.

I have to tell you G, few things push my buttons around here harder than putting words in my mouth.

No I suppose you didn't and I figured you didn't find it to be acceptable behavior. Your statement sounded like you defended his actions seeming the items were not worth all that much money. So I made a silly assumption and posted it.
I will apologize if my question came across as a scathing accusation or character assault. As that was not my intention.

Also I don't think its a huge part of the story, rather an assault on the character of Brown.

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I think that approach leaves too much up to the police.  You are essentially deferring all judgment to them.
I suppose I am. Honestly I haven't heard to much other than the word of the police outside of this website. Perhaps a system is needed to police the police? There seems to be a lot of trust the police in the current system. I would like to believe that cops are honest guys like you and me and we can use the trust system. Then you have incidents like this and the 12 year old kid.

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Did I say it was?  Let's look at my post.  Hmm.  I don't see where I wrote that.  In fact, immediately after I wrote "minor incidents", I gave an example of what I was talking about :"selling onesies".  So it looks like G is pushing my buttons again.
But I was on a roll with the silly accusations! Go big or go home!
The onesies? Was that the guy who was choked to death (I think he was choked to death) by the police for selling cigarettes?

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That said, getting punched in the face once or twice is minor relative to killing someone.  Is that where we are at as a nation, now?  Nobody can take an ass kicking anymore? 

You know I am glad you said that because I have been asking that question since the Treyvon Martin tragedy. I always thought cops where of something more than you average citizen and would shoot someone as the very last option. Perhaps I was wrong about them or times have changed... Or maybe I shouldn't paint all cops with the same brush. But it does seem that people are quicker to shoot others because they fear a good old fashioned ass kicking. Maybe its always been that way? Maybe the media scares people? I don't know but I agree that it seems that way.

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Cops get to kill people in order to avoid a little discomfort?  Look at the rude pundit link above.  Every day police handle bad guys without killing them and without brutality.  Pieces of crap like Wilson undermine our trust in the good ones.
Did you say earlier that you didn't think Brown assaulted Wilson? I don't recall and its easier to just ask you than to go back digging through posts.
Do you feel there is a time that its ok for police to use lethal force? If so at what point?
 

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He wasn't defending himself when he killed Brown.  Allegedly, he shot Brown at the car to defend himself.  Brown ran away.  Wilson shot at him some more.   Not self defense.  Brown stopped, turned around and either surrendered or charged, depending which version you believe.  Still not self defense.  In my opinion, Wilson shot because he was upset and just because he could. It was less complicated that way.
To my understanding he shot at the car and missed (I think he missed). Then when Brown turned to leave Wilson radioed in and started to pursuit. Brown then supposedly charged, which I do admit makes little since.
Accusing him of shooting him for no reason sounds like quite the accusation. But perhaps if he was scared or in the "heat of battle" or something along those lines it makes since.
I will have to read the links you and Azdgari provided if I ever get the chance.

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What do you think of cameras on cops?

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Wonderful idea, provided the correct rules are in place.  Cops must be punished for not turning them on, or for turning them off when they should be on.  The video must not be under police control.  The video must be available to anyone who requests it.  Given that, I think it is a boon for both police and citizens.  Cops behave better.  People behave better.  Data shows this is true.
I agree that it should be in some other organizations control outside of the police. I think that would remove any accusations of the police tampering with the film to cover for their own.
All I have heard is talking points on it on tv. I was wondering what others think of it.

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That is what a grand jury is supposed to decide - whether the prosecution has enough merit to go onto a full trial.  The DA works closely with the police - they're on the same team, so to speak.  So, few DAs ever want to try a cop.  He didn't want an indictment because a trial is too much of a toss-up.
I  think if a US citizen is killed they deserve a trial. A huge let down IMO.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 01:54:53 PM by G-Roll »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2014, 09:26:18 PM »
No I suppose you didn't and I figured you didn't find it to be acceptable behavior. Your statement sounded like you defended his actions seeming the items were not worth all that much money. So I made a silly assumption and posted it.
I will apologize if my question came across as a scathing accusation or character assault. As that was not my intention.

I appreciate that.

Perhaps a system is needed to police the police?

Aye.  But that's an age old problem, innit?

I always thought cops where of something more than you average citizen and would shoot someone as the very last option. Perhaps I was wrong about them or times have changed...

Times have changed.  I knew an old state trooper who never shot his gun in his career, but spoke of harrowing fights where I cannot imagine not needing to shoot it.  One particular, he took some rural children into custody (parents had abused them) and had to fight his way from the house to his cruiser.  He fought the entire extended family, single handedly, about a dozen people.  He got away with the children and the family sued him for brutality.

There was a quote from a movie - I forget which one - police used to be iron men with wooden sticks, now they are wooden men with iron sticks.  Don't take that as getting all misty eyed and romantic for the olden days.  Said state trooper was also a horrid racist and talked about hassling black guys just for the fun of it.  But at least he understood who was working for whom and what his job was.

Do you feel there is a time that its ok for police to use lethal force? If so at what point?

Yes. When someone's life is genuinely threatened.  I think cops killing people because they feel scared is criminal.  When a cop says, "I thought he was reaching for a gun" and there was no actual gun, then I think that cop really needs to find a new line of work, because his judgment is a public safety threat.

A topical commentary from Charles Pierce
"Armies of occupation or the local police?"
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Problem_With_Police


edit: I --> in
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 10:05:55 AM by screwtape »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2014, 04:22:25 PM »
Cameras on police is a very expensive solution, especially if "anyone" who requests the footage can have access to it. There have already been cases where cities have been bombarded with costly requests by "concerned citizens" who turned out to be troublemakers. I am talking thousands of dollars racked up in requests by one individual who wanted to see all hundreds of hours of footage the police had.

And guess who will end up paying for all that?

And video footage can be ambiguous or misleading, just like eyewitness reports. Was the guy who got shot yelling "Hey, don't shoot me" or "I'll kill you honky"? One person sees a guy charging recklessly with his arms up to attack, another sees a guy stumbling forward, arms up in surrender after having been shot.

What a mess-- the whole increased scrutiny thing will make reasonable, trustworthy people less likely to go into police work. And who will that leave? The Dirty Harry types who don't really care who is watching. Does not seem to solve the problem, which is a small percentage of cops behaving badly in altercations, whereas most cops do the right thing.:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2014, 04:48:28 PM »
Cameras on police is a very expensive solution, especially if "anyone" who requests the footage can have access to it.

Why can it not be like regular FOIA requests where the fees are paid by the person making the request?

And video footage can be ambiguous or misleading,

It will be a lot less ambiguous that witness memory.  As it is, in Ferguson we have numerous conflicting accounts of whether "Big Mike" had his hands in the air or at his side, whether he was kneeling down, standing up or charging.  All this would be resolved by cameras.  Particularly if you have the same incident from two or more perspectives because all the police involved will have cameras.

Does not seem to solve the problem, which is a small percentage of cops behaving badly in altercations, whereas most cops do the right thing.

The initial data says cameras, with the right rules, will help both the community and the police.
http://www.policefoundation.org/content/body-worn-cameras-police-use-force
"...more than 50% reduction in use of force incidents..."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/california-police-body-cameras-cuts-violence-complaints-rialto
"...complaints against officers plunged 88%..."

But  I also agree that across the whole nation, the police need an attitude adjustment as per Charles Pierce (linked above).

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2014, 10:25:41 AM »
I cannot believe Pantaleo was not indicted.  I just cannot believe it.

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/12/no-indictment-for-white-cop-who-choked.html
He makes several good points.  Good cops should want these guys indicted.  And yes, this is giving people little alternative but to revolt.  If the government cannot protect us from the police killing us at will, what good is it?

the laws have to change.

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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2014, 10:47:15 AM »
Cameras on police is a very expensive solution, especially if "anyone" who requests the footage can have access to it.

Why can it not be like regular FOIA requests where the fees are paid by the person making the request?

And video footage can be ambiguous or misleading,

It will be a lot less ambiguous that witness memory.  As it is, in Ferguson we have numerous conflicting accounts of whether "Big Mike" had his hands in the air or at his side, whether he was kneeling down, standing up or charging.  All this would be resolved by cameras.  Particularly if you have the same incident from two or more perspectives because all the police involved will have cameras.

Does not seem to solve the problem, which is a small percentage of cops behaving badly in altercations, whereas most cops do the right thing.

The initial data says cameras, with the right rules, will help both the community and the police.
http://www.policefoundation.org/content/body-worn-cameras-police-use-force
"...more than 50% reduction in use of force incidents..."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/california-police-body-cameras-cuts-violence-complaints-rialto
"...complaints against officers plunged 88%..."

But  I also agree that across the whole nation, the police need an attitude adjustment as per Charles Pierce (linked above).

Not to parrot MSNBCs Morning Joe (if its on one of their shows it will be on all the others) but it seems cameras on cops wont work. Here with Pantelo we have clear footage of him choking Garner. A medical report that declares Garners death a homicide. We all saw the video and watched Garner die from his wind pipe (and chest I believe) being crushed by an aggressive cop.
Cops on camera did not work this time. Do you think it will work next time?

*Edit
To further stress my point the video of Pantelo preforming an act that I would at least be convicted of manslaughter should I preform is 9 times better than any camera on a cop. If we were to go with cameras on cops it would be just plain black because Pantelo would be a bit to busy killing Garner. We actually saw his arm around his neck and a third person clear view. I don't think you could have had a clearer video.
Perhaps in the case of a cop mounting and beating the shit out of an old lady a POV would be more helpful. Anyone know what came of that case? I bet I can guess what will happen.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:52:39 AM by G-Roll »

Online Azdgari

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2014, 10:52:24 AM »
G-Roll:  They did work.  Meaning, they allowed the public to see what would otherwise be hidden.  To assess how well they worked, you have to consider the differences between the outcome with the cameras, with the outcome had they not been present.  What story would we have heard?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2014, 10:57:00 AM »
G-Roll:  They did work.  Meaning, they allowed the public to see what would otherwise be hidden.  To assess how well they worked, you have to consider the differences between the outcome with the cameras, with the outcome had they not been present.  What story would we have heard?

Yes I agree with your point.

However if cameras on cops are supposed to help bring justice I feel it failed.
I personally think one can argue the legitimacy of Mike Browns killing. The killing of Garner however is pretty clear cut and the whole thing is on video. If all cameras on cops mean is that we get to watch police kill people.. what is the point? What difference does it make what story they tell us if cops are allowed to kill people in near willy nilly fashion?
 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2014, 11:08:14 AM »
However if cameras on cops are supposed to help bring justice I feel it failed.

justice failed because 1. the law is heavily slanted in favor of police and 2. Staten Island is full of cop-loving morons.

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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2014, 11:23:13 AM »
To avoid being a Negative Nancy here is a case in which the camera worked. The 51 year old lady who assaulted for walking within traffic lanes.
 http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/california-police-videotape-beating/

As a result of the settlement, the officer involved, Daniel L. Andrew, has agreed to resign, the CHP media relations office said.
She received a $1.5 Mill payout.

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2014, 11:44:36 AM »
Even if the only advantage of cameras on cops is that we get to see what they're getting away with, I would hope that over time, growing resentment would fester in to a gigantic give a fuck, which might perhaps angrily lead towards a somewhat more aggressive form of apathy.

I started the above sentence as an optimist, ended it as a pessimist. Can you tell?

My suggestion is this. If the victim of police brutality is, without question, having just committed a murder, then it's okay for the cops to do him in, just to let off a little steam. But if the dead black kid, whether he be a perp, an alleged perp, or not a perp at all, is guilty of a less serious offense or nothing, and the police used deadly force, then we do some math. If the dead person would have gotten 6 months for what he was guilty of, say stealing hubcaps, you subtract what the kid would have gotten (6 months) from life imprisonment and that is how long the cop would have to spend in jail for being such a deadly dick. If the kid was guilty of armed robbery and assault and would have gotten 20 years, subtract 20 years from a life sentence. If the kid had a pot seed in his pocket and would have gotten 50 years, subtract that. (Please note, the pot seed thing is oozing with sarcasm, whether you notice it or not, ) The less the kid is guilty of, the more time the cop spends in jail. And vice versa.

Figure life as 80 years minus the age of the dead kid.

The use of deadly force, whether against felonies and/or complete innocence can not be condoned if it happened because of police attitudes rather than because of clear and present dangers. If cops can't allow for the fact that their own history in a community has pissed off the locals and behave with at least tiny amounts of sensitivity, then they should find another line of work. If they are going to behave with brazen indifference, they need to go out and be billionaires like Donald Trump or the Koch brothers. They wouldn't even have to wear cameras any more. Nor would they dare.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Online Nam

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2014, 12:35:02 PM »
The problem with our police situation is that not only do cops protect cops but prosecutors/DAs protect cops, too. In this situation, and clearly in the Brown situation that's what happened.

There needs to be an outside special prosecutor when it comes to police.

Look how much FBI agents have gotten away with in the past 25 years. They can murder someone in front of other people and get away with it.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2014, 12:59:34 PM »
Charles Pierce on this non-indictment
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Eric_Garner_Case_And_Police_Lawlessness

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This flaunting of both departmental rules and federal law on the part of local police departments is the clearest indication that they consider themselves beyond the law they are sworn to enforce. And why shouldn't they? The systems by which they are supposed to be held accountable are intolerably weak, where they are not broken altogether.

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Offline Nick

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2014, 05:57:58 PM »
To show you how sad of a state I live in (Missouri) this little racist event is taking place in St. Joseph, Missouri...a bar is offering a Michael Brown special...6 shots for $10 bucks.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Online Nam

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2014, 06:11:57 PM »
To show you how sad of a state I live in (Missouri) this little racist event is taking place in St. Joseph, Missouri...a bar is offering a Michael Brown special...6 shots for $10 bucks.

Missouri's State Motto: "Trying to be a part of the Confederacy going on for 153 years!"

They never got over that their ancestors voted to stay a part of the Union.

That motto discludes the non-racist, non-bigots, and non-heavily prejudiced peoples who still live there. Few and far between. But, at least it's not as bad as some Southern states or Kansas.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Ferguson
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2014, 09:50:08 AM »
The NYT carries a good report of the incident: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-missouri-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.html?_r=0

As opposed to the Rodney King affair, this shooting is a poor case upon which to stage a riot.
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