Author Topic: Hillary  (Read 227 times)

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Offline shnozzola

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Hillary
« on: January 25, 2016, 03:04:37 PM »
When this election season started rolling rolling around, I thought to myself, no - a Bush or Clinton - I am NOT voting for either one. So now that it has come down to it, after watching all the crap, after watching Hillary Clinton when she was getting grilled about Benghazi by the the committee, after Trump and Bush and Cruz and Carson and Bernie and Rubio and Christie and Kasich,  I gotta go with Hillary.  She's not the smooth  talking Obama, or smooth like her husband, but she has the intelligence and middle of the road, international  views needed.  If I had to vote Republican,  I'd vote for Kasich.

Who are you all voting for ?
Should'very started a poll but I'm on this phone.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2016, 03:26:35 PM »

as it stands, I'm voting for Hilary, she's pragmatic and tough.  I really do like some of Bernie's ideas but he often strikes me as being a little out of touch of the reality of what a president has to do.   I'd love to be queen of the world and declare my opinions and desires law but it just doesn't work that way.   I wish Jim Webb would have remained in the race.   I don't think I could vote for any of the Republicans in the running now.  Kasich is the least crazy of a lot of wannabee theocrats and strongmen/women who are entirely divorced from reality and who have no problem lying constantly. 

I watched a recent interview with Obama where he said something along the lines of "once you are in the office and know things, some of the decisions of your predecessors don't seem so wrong."  I respect that realization.   
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2016, 03:48:07 PM »
   I really can't imagine the American public electing any of the republicans, but many said the same about that Hollywood actor Republican - what was his name - oh yeah - Ronald Reagan, and they still adore him.   Hillary has it right about Bernie, and it's interesting.  Ideally, we need universal single payer health care, and we will probably get it someday once the public understands the ridiculous clout of the insurance companies.  And Bernie pushing against Wall Street is right on.  I'm just afraid if Bernie won, we'd have some gun slinging republican president and start world war 3.

   Watching Hillary patiently and strongly answer the committees questions, with her knowledge from being secretary of state, not to mention a pretty good politician at home with her every evening.  That's the reasons.  I understand so many despise the Clintons, but objectively looking at the country during the 90s, Clinton did a pretty good job.  But hey, circumstances made the 90s fairly easy, but Bill is respected in Europe.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2016, 03:50:03 PM »
the repub field is full of crazed maniacs who promise to start wars with literally everyone else on the planet.  And that's not even the worst of what they have said. I wish someone would put them all on one bus and drive it off a cliff.

Kasich might be the least awful of them, but America would still be better off with him at the bottom of a lake.

I hate Hillary.  I hate her stated foreign policy.  I hate her unstated allegiance to Wall Street. I am sick to death of Clintons and Bushes.  And I also know the a repub congress will obstruct her in exactly the same way they have attempted to poison everything Obama has done or tried to do.  But I will vote for her because I am pretty sure Ginsberg is going to retire and Kennedy, Scalia and possibly (hopefully) Thomas are going to drop dead in the next 8 years.  And Bernie has no chance of beating any of the crazed maniacs.  America is so far gone, we would rather elect a crazed manic than a socialist.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2016, 12:23:00 PM »
At the town hall meeting, Hillary said something that really bothered me.  She compared Reconstruction to Jim Crow, as if Reconstruction was all about unfairly punishing the South.  Ta-Nehisi is all over it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/hillary-clinton-reconstruction/427095/

Quote
Clinton, whether she knows it or not, is retelling a racist—though popular—version of American history which held sway in this country until relatively recently.  Sometimes going under the handle of “The Dunning School,” and other times going under the “Lost Cause” label, the basic idea is that Reconstruction was a mistake brought about by vengeful Northern radicals. The result was a savage and corrupt government which in turn left former Confederates, as Clinton puts, it “discouraged and defiant.”

good link therein explains the Dunning School.
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Online wright

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2016, 12:46:43 PM »
^^^It's a recurring problem, that kind of historical whitewashing / amnesia in politicians. All the more disturbing in someone running for President.

And I feel somewhat nauseous that I will likely vote for her, for the same reasons you gave earlier. The Repubs are so far to the right they have a would-be fascist in front and Sanders can't (alas) get the same support Clinton can.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2016, 01:24:55 PM »
At the town hall meeting, Hillary said something that really bothered me.  She compared Reconstruction to Jim Crow, as if Reconstruction was all about unfairly punishing the South.  Ta-Nehisi is all over it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/hillary-clinton-reconstruction/427095/

Quote
Clinton, whether she knows it or not, is retelling a racist—though popular—version of American history which held sway in this country until relatively recently.  Sometimes going under the handle of “The Dunning School,” and other times going under the “Lost Cause” label, the basic idea is that Reconstruction was a mistake brought about by vengeful Northern radicals. The result was a savage and corrupt government which in turn left former Confederates, as Clinton puts, it “discouraged and defiant.”

good link therein explains the Dunning School.

 I don't see what you and Coates see in Clinton's quote:

"You know, he was willing to reconcile and forgive.  And I don't know what our country might have been like had he not been murdered, but I bet that it might have been a little less rancorous, a little more forgiving and tolerant, that might possibly have brought people back together more quickly. But instead, you know, we had Reconstruction, we had the re-instigation of segregation and Jim Crow.  We had people in the South feeling totally discouraged and defiant.  So, I really do believe he could have very well put us on a different path."

I don't see a comparison of Jim Crow and Reconstruction.   I see a sequence of events.   Could you tell me where you see the comparison? 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2016, 01:58:35 PM »
I don't see what you and Coates see in Clinton's quote:

"You know, he was willing to reconcile and forgive.  And I don't know what our country might have been like had he not been murdered, but I bet that it might have been a little less rancorous, a little more forgiving and tolerant, that might possibly have brought people back together more quickly. But instead, you know, we had Reconstruction, we had the re-instigation of segregation and Jim Crow.  We had people in the South feeling totally discouraged and defiant.  So, I really do believe he could have very well put us on a different path."

Could you tell me where you see the comparison?

No problem.

It is the juxtaposition of "it might have been a little less rancorous, a little more forgiving and tolerant," and, "But instead, you know, we had Reconstruction...and Jim Crow."  (bold mine)  The point being, Lincoln could have brought the nation back together in a " more forgiving and tolerant" way.  But because Lincoln was murdered by a Southern terrorist, we did not have "forgiving and tolerant", we had "Reconstruction and Jim Crow."  We know Jim Crow was horrible, and Reconstruction is being lumped in with it, opposite of "forgiving and tolerant".

I could be wrong.  It is possible she meant something different and just did not articulate well, or I just don't get it.  But that is how I take her statement. It sounds to me like she presents another case of Both Sides Do It, which is untrue.  First, Reconstruction was not a punishment.  Second, both sides didn't do it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-reconstruction/2016/01/21/0719b324-bfc5-11e5-83d4-42e3bceea902_story.html


http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article17335943.html
Quote
Union General Joshua Chamberlain remarked to Southern counterpart Henry Wise that perhaps now “brave men may become good friends.”

Wise’s reply was bitter as smoke. “You’re mistaken, sir,” he said. “You may forgive us, but we won’t be forgiven. There is a rancor in our hearts which you little dream of. We hate you, sir.”




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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2016, 02:17:49 PM »
I would guess that it was more articulation than anything.

It's kind of scary that there are people out there trying to push the idea that Reconstruction was an attempt at vengeance on the South.  I never thought of it that way, although thinking back, there were at least overtones of the idea in what I learned in high school.  But while I always thought of it as a harsher plan than Lincoln's, I never saw it as actual vengeance.  I think they were trying to break the cultural traditions of the South.  It didn't work, of which a consequence was the Jim Crow period, but it wasn't actually responsible for Jim Crow.  I think if there had been no Reconstruction, there would still have been something like Jim Crow, although it probably wouldn't have been as overt.

EDIT:  I did some reading of those links screwtape posted, and I have to admit that I thought at least two or three of those myths were actually true (due to what I initially learned about Reconstruction).  What's irritating is that if I had actually thought about them, I might have realized sooner.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 02:40:58 PM by jaimehlers »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2016, 03:37:32 PM »
EDIT:  I did some reading of those links screwtape posted, and I have to admit that I thought at least two or three of those myths were actually true (due to what I initially learned about Reconstruction). 

At least three of those myths were taught as fact when I was in school.  In addition, I was taught John Brown was a villain and a kook, the war was really about states rights and most slaves were treated quite well.  And I went to school in the north east.  How the heck did that happen?
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2016, 04:01:09 PM »
I am strongly in favor of Bernie Sanders' platform but very doubtful it being implemented.  I see numerous fights with the Republicans in the house and senate.  Unless more Dems are voted in to the house and senate both Bernie and Hillary have an uphill battle.  If a Republican wins the presidency it gives me a sick feeling.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2016, 06:20:03 PM »
No problem.

It is the juxtaposition of "it might have been a little less rancorous, a little more forgiving and tolerant," and, "But instead, you know, we had Reconstruction...and Jim Crow."  (bold mine)  The point being, Lincoln could have brought the nation back together in a " more forgiving and tolerant" way.  But because Lincoln was murdered by a Southern terrorist, we did not have "forgiving and tolerant", we had "Reconstruction and Jim Crow."  We know Jim Crow was horrible, and Reconstruction is being lumped in with it, opposite of "forgiving and tolerant".

I could be wrong.  It is possible she meant something different and just did not articulate well, or I just don't get it.  But that is how I take her statement. It sounds to me like she presents another case of Both Sides Do It, which is untrue.  First, Reconstruction was not a punishment.  Second, both sides didn't do it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-reconstruction/2016/01/21/0719b324-bfc5-11e5-83d4-42e3bceea902_story.html


http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article17335943.html
Quote
Union General Joshua Chamberlain remarked to Southern counterpart Henry Wise that perhaps now “brave men may become good friends.”

Wise’s reply was bitter as smoke. “You’re mistaken, sir,” he said. “You may forgive us, but we won’t be forgiven. There is a rancor in our hearts which you little dream of. We hate you, sir.”

Thanks.  I see better what you see.   I do wonder though about the problem with thinking Lincoln would have made it better when that is what the Herald article said "America shattered in 1861. Lincoln forced the bloody pieces back together at the cost of over 600,000 lives, one of them his own. It never did knit itself back together in the way he had hoped — in the way he might have helped it to, had he survived."
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2016, 06:49:51 PM »
I have liked Sanders for years and respect him a great deal.

But like in the Bush-Gore election, we are in danger of letting the perfect become the enemy of the good. Or even the okay. Or the sane.

We cannot let Repubs get close to the White House. The world is not just the US and now we see quite clearly what damage crazy greedy ignorant people can do to the entire planet when they get into power. I would vote for Bernie if he got the nom, but it will probably be Hillary. 

And I will work my butt off to get her into the presidency. Not because she is perfect and wonderful. Because she is smart, tough, experienced-- and not as evil or as crazy as any of the people on the other side.
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Offline mrbiscoop

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 09:52:25 AM »
I do wonder though about the problem with thinking Lincoln would have made it better...

I agree.  I don't think Lincoln would have been able to make it better.  Wise's quote sums it up.  There are still white southerners who think like that today.  Possibly what Abe might have done was keep Reconstruction on track, moving it along further, helping Black southerners, and possibly Black Americans would have been in a better place today.

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Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2016, 10:17:12 PM »
There's nothing she could do or say that would make me vote for the Republican candidate.   
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 03:24:04 PM »
There's nothing she could do or say that would make me vote for the Republican candidate.

I agree there. If it turned out that she was a reptilian overlord sent from Planet Ten as part of the advance force to take over the earth and enslave us all......I would still not vote for Trump, Cruz, Carson, Rubio or any of the others. They are too horrible for me to imagine leading this country.

I have lived through ten presidents.[1] Notice how the current crop of repubs never even mention previous repub presidents except Reagan? And they have rebooted history to ignore all the things he did that were wrong, like Iran-Contra. They act like all the other repub presidents never existed, because they cannot abide by the fact that none of them before Reagan was nearly as crazy and evil as they are today. Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower and even Nixon would be flaming liberals by today's standards.

In my lifetime, the country, and the world is always worse off after the republicans have been in power. War, death, crumbling infrastructure, more inequality, worse environmental problems, worse social problems.  Less help from the government and more money and power to the already rich and powerful.  Cut taxes on the wealthy and pay for government services by raising fees on everything. Expand the military presence. Privatize everything. Blame poor people, women, gays, blacks and immigrants for things that are not going well. Borrow from China and pretend that the budget is balanced. Let big businesses do whatever they want. Reduce emphasis on science--except for weapons. Put people in important positions in government based on who you knew in college (Heckuva job, Brownie.) and who prays the right way (Can a non-Catholic get on the Supreme Court these days?). And don't evaluate the results. Might not look like what you think...

Just like what we hear from the republicans this time around. "We are gonna win!" says Trump. Yeah, that sounds like a coherent, well thought out policy proposal for the future of the country. "Scriptures!" says Cruz. Right you are. That will fix the health care and environmental problems. "Bomb somebody!" says all of them. That always makes things better. And it costs nothing--the military is all-volunteer, right?! Pay no attention to all the maimed and dead people, and all the injured, traumatized vets and homeless refugees behind the curtain.

No solutions. No policies. No programs.

If I thought Hillary was truly evil, and Sanders was out of the running, I would write in a different candidate before I would vote republican, and that is saying a lot coming from someone as committed to democracy as I am.
 1. Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush one, Clinton, Bush two and Obama.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Hillary
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 03:37:28 PM »
I find it fascinating how virtually every Republican candidate (and president) for the past several years - hell, maybe the past several decades - fits the definition of a demagogue. There aren't any proposals in any of their speeches; just "THE SKY IS FALLING!!!"-type speeches. If the Democrat president doesn't take immediate (often violent) action, they're a coward. Deliberation is forfeited in favor of knee-jerk reactions that screw everyone. The only people who vote for candidates with these speeches are those who have knee-jerk reactions as well.
You're not alone, however. Portugal had its presidential elections a week ago. I looked up every candidate before I went to vote and crossed out the ones who made this type of speeches. Unsurprisingly, they were all from our equivalent of your "right-wing". They're not as insane as your guys, thankfully, and our elections aren't as rigged as yours[1], meaning they have an actual chance to win without pandering to the idiots and knee-jerkers, but the similarities are astonishing.
 1. I'm referring to "gerrymandering", which is simply impossible under our current system.
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