Author Topic: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill  (Read 248 times)

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Offline shnozzola

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Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« on: April 24, 2015, 06:19:36 PM »
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/04/dems-stuck-between-warren-obama-in-trade-rumble-117211.html

Quote
President Barack Obama’s efforts to pursue a landmark trade agreement with countries on the Pacific Rim has split his own party.
Obama is seeking to finalize an agreement known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The deal has been in negotiation since 2009 between the United States, Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. Combined, these countries account for roughly 40 percent of the world’s economy.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/apr/23/martin-omalley/martin-omalley-says-congress-wont-see-pacific-trad/

I am with the President on this trade bill. While many Dems are beholden to unions, and Elizabeth Warren is just asking for transparency in the deal, I hope it passes.  I find it interesting that the republicans favor the deal for the business community while, as NAFTA, it takes jobs out of the US. 

Taking manufacturing all over the world through trade agreements is exactly what the world needs. And yes, I believe it does hurt American jobs, but makes the world safer. For all our talk about Islamic extremism, it IS the economy (not religion), as we say in elections, and helping economies by leveling trade is what the world needs, perhaps more importantly then any issue of our time.  It's coming - global trade leveling.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/23/us-trade-tpp-idUSKBN0NE07F20150423
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:22:00 PM by shnozzola »
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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 06:28:45 PM »
I usually agree with Warren when it comes to things like this but here I'm on the side of Obama.

-Nam
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Offline Nick

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 07:26:24 PM »
If people think the "old" jobs are returning to this country they are nuts.  If it can be done for 2 bucks or less it will be.  If we don't join in in the global economy we will be left behind.  China will pass us sooner than expected.

Either you get an education and learn how to operate in a tech world or you will be in min wage jobs for most of your life.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 08:20:23 PM »
Every night I flirt with death and every morning I wake up disappointed.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 10:45:58 PM »
Mark me as totally against it.  Why?  For one, it is a complete secret., politifact not withstanding.  They're not allowed to read it before voting on it, which is fishy enough. Secondly, nafta, and every other free trade bullshit agreement, killed the US working middle class.  This will do more of the same.

Warren has been right on the money so far on all things economic.  Plus Bernie Sanders hates it too.  I respect them both a lot and they have a better track record in my book than the president. 

Forbes is for it, so it must only benefit the rich bastards at the expense of everyone else.  I say that only half tongue in cheek.[1]

Also, politico sucks on such a consistent basis, Charles Pierce refers to it as Tiger Beat on the Patomic.

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/04/23/sen-warren-those-promising-tpp-would-be-so-great-prove-it

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/5-things-to-know-about-obamas-trans-pacific-partnership/


 1. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinomarah/2015/04/22/obama-is-right-on-the-trans-pacific-partnership/
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2015, 02:24:01 AM »
If this article is correct about the TPP, its passage would be a very bad thing.  According to the article, the TPP would allow multinational corporations to sue national governments in a "court" (arbitration) run by corporate lawyers, and fine them (the national governments) if they passed regulations or laws that threatened the value of existing capital or anticipated profits, such as environmental regulations and measures to prevent climate change.  They could also conceivably sue nations that did not bail out big banks, or attempted to institute monetary policies that impinged on profits. 

I'm not an expert on the TPP in any sense, and I'm definitely not a lawyer, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of the article's claims.  But if they're correct--then yikes!  I'm with Screwtape (and by extension, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders and the objecting Democrats) on this one.  Especially if the Republicans (who would vote for burning kittens if Obama came out against it) are supporting Obama (?!) this time around.
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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2015, 02:38:46 AM »
I do admit that there must be something fishy if Repubes agree with Obama on something.

However, agreeing and voting in favor of are two different things. From the articles I read: I'm still on Obama's side. The biggest problem Warren has with this is: she hasn't read it. That's what I get from all the articles I've read, and interviews I've seen. She, and others, are likening it to the one during Clinton's (Bill) presidency but how can you if you haven't read it. And, while I agree that transparency is important I don't believe Obama would sign on to something so huge without it benefitting those in which it should.

I could be wrong. Probably am but until it's released to Congress and/or the public people, like Warren, are just assuming it's exactly like the old one.

-Nam
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2015, 02:59:30 AM »
I don't trust Obama that much.  Heck, I wouldn't trust Elizabeth Warren with a pig-in-a-poke like that.  In general, if we sign multilateral agreements that allow capital to move freely across national borders, while labor is not free to do so, that gives an unfair advantage to capital and imposes a race to the bottom.  Are you willing to work for a dollar a day?
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 03:30:26 AM »
If people think the "old" jobs are returning to this country they are nuts.  If it can be done for 2 bucks or less it will be.  If we don't join in in the global economy we will be left behind.  China will pass us sooner than expected.

Either you get an education and learn how to operate in a tech world or you will be in min wage jobs for most of your life.

So get out there, get an education, rack up six figures in student loan debt...then see if you can compete with some kid from Bangalore who's willing to code for burger-job wages.  Or the latest Watson-type expert-system software that doesn't need a salary at all.  The problem with the "tech world" is that it doesn't really need a lot of (relatively well-paid) people to run the way the old Fordist economy did.  It'll work just fine with a tiny clade of hotshot tech entrepreneurs, hedge fundies, and oil barons at the top plus a caste of well-to-do hangers-on (life coaches, personal masseuses, private chefs, security guards, etc.), a much larger struggling class of McService Job working poor, then the rest who get just enough of a dole to keep them from rioting or starving to death, and provide smart phones to keep them occupied.  See Tyler Cowan's Average is Over.  Also Robotic Nation by Marshall Brain. 

In principle, we could probably use tech and automation to create a Star Trek economy along the lines people like Buckminster Fuller or Jacque Fresco proposed instead of making a person's right to exist and participate meaningfully in society based on "having a job" in a world where "jobs" either don't exist or pay peanuts.  But that's crazy commie-talk.  Who is John Galt?   
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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2015, 03:59:34 AM »
kcrady,

I already work 19 hours a day and get paid nothing.

Sadly, my only happiness is coming here and occasionally calling someone an idiot.

-Nam
Quote from: David Garrett Arnold
there are oceans of words aged in prayer,
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credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—
trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2015, 06:11:48 AM »
   Good arguments against Obama's position.  His position does seem to be a legacy plan that is 50 years or more too far in the future.  Tribalism and nationalism, with it's selfishness, is something western society may not be ready for.  His bill is asking for skipping long world debate needed for things like copyright, currency manipulation, environmental regulation, and lawsuits - like KCrady says,  and, hell, so many people distrust what the UN would need to be, like Mr. Blackwell's video, that any needed plans are probably doomed.  Unfortunately, to put it bluntly and maybe overstated, wealth should then be expecting more 9/11s as the poorest can muster them.
   
The idea that the senate is expected to vote on the bill without reading it is beyond fishy, beyond ludicrous - in fact, I don't believe it - why would one senator vote for it?  So I guess it is like everything else (as per Screwtape) - Warren's phones are ringing off the wall against business interests, and republicans phones are ringing off the wall with fat cat money promised for relocating outside the US.

I'd like to hear what Aussie and European members think about this, especially after the austerity measures needed for the Euro.  It seems like Europe is better suited for the global business deals necessary with the ugly sausage making process that is needed.

I guess it is like the god debate, no matter what society thinks, we continue to roll along without such a thing, and with global trade, the market slowly but surely rolls along incrementally solving problems regardless of arguments.

Edit:  Another thing to add to the argument, after reading Screwtape's Forbes link, is China's part of the equation which may also drive Obama's position
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 06:29:29 AM by shnozzola »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2015, 07:29:44 AM »
Parts of TiSA - which is a trade deal similar to TPP - were released on wikileaks.   Unless you are a CEO or a corporation, it looks really bad.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121967/whats-really-going-trade-services-agreement

must remain secret for 5 years after passing.  no thank you.
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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2015, 11:02:20 AM »
I don't understand why Republicans are so against Obama after reading that. I'm mean hell, that's a Republicans wet dream coming true. It's like the Alien series -- the Corporation controls everything.

-Nam
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Offline Nick

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2015, 07:28:58 AM »
It is nice to see that the Dems are not in lock step with everything like the GOP is.  But I am with the president as well on this one.  You can't stop progress and hiding on your side of the world and going...nanananana.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2015, 12:33:54 PM »
despite proponents saying the TPP would not usurp US law, we see exactly how other trade agreements force congress to placate outside interests. This is not good for consumers.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35637/country-of-origin-meat-law-repeal/

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2015, 12:42:55 PM »
One of the single most disturbing things about those two trade agreements is that they can be used to effectively override existing regulations on, say, intellectual property (aka, copyright).  Why spend time and money lobbying for extensions to copyright law in multiple countries when you can just take the existing law to this arbitration court so you can profit off of the fines levied against the government which passed it and force the governments of those countries to change it in order to not continue to be fined?

No thanks.  These trade deals need to either become completely public and aboveboard before they are voted on, or they need to die.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2015, 12:49:36 PM »
One of the single most disturbing things about those two trade agreements is that they can be used to effectively override existing regulations on, say, intellectual property (aka, copyright). 

I am less worried about that than I am what it can do to environmental law or labor law or, as in the case above, consumer protections.  Will some company sue to have OSHA shut down because china doesn't have those restrictions?  The EPA?  I know this is a repub's wet dream.  But it should not be forwarded by a democratic president. 
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Re: Obama vs Democrats on Pacific Trade Bill
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2015, 01:17:59 PM »
Quote from: Screwtape
I know this is a repub's wet dream.

You stole my line. :'([1]

-Nam

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Quote from: David Garrett Arnold
there are oceans of words aged in prayer,
against geometric lines, and cloudbeaten skies;
credulous allure—slowly captivated in hearts fair—
trees and flowers bloomed in grace upon one's eyes.