Author Topic: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!  (Read 2609 times)

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Offline epidemic

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My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« on: August 19, 2013, 06:27:58 AM »
The claim is when push comes to shove they almost always conceed that there is some freakishly remote chance of a god or gods.  In order to be atheist do you need to absolutely deny the possibility of a god or gods?

if you accept the minute remote possibility of god does that not put you in the agnostic camp?

Online One Above All

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 06:36:14 AM »
A gnostic atheist is one who is 100% sure that there are no gods. An agnostic atheist is someone who isn't sure that gods don't exist, but doesn't believe in them. Both are atheists.
Being agnostic regarding belief in gods is like saying your car has wheels when asked what brand it is. Gnosticism refers only to knowledge; not belief.
EDIT: As for the "no atheists in foxholes" thing, tell your friend he/she might want to do a quick search on Google.
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Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline William

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 06:44:55 AM »
Some kind of being with superior technology who might have had some input to our existence - maybe - I'm conscious of the need to be open minded but it is a very long shot.

BibleGod, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Ganesh or any of scriptural/mythical gods we've invented so far - not a snowball's chance in hell - I'm full bore atheist with respect to all of them - tending towards militant atheist because I'm fed up with all this nonsense and the breeding ground for BS created by religious tolerance.
Git mit uns

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 07:05:03 AM »
A gnostic atheist is one who is 100% sure that there are no gods. An agnostic atheist is someone who isn't sure that gods don't exist, but doesn't believe in them. Both are atheists.
Being agnostic regarding belief in gods is like saying your car has wheels when asked what brand it is. Gnosticism refers only to knowledge; not belief.
EDIT: As for the "no atheists in foxholes" thing, tell your friend he/she might want to do a quick search on Google.

why would an agnostic atheist not simply be rolled into the agnostic catagory?

a Gnostic Atheist would seem to be a very rare fish.  Only because it implies more knowledge than a person could have.

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 07:09:49 AM »
why would an agnostic atheist not simply be rolled into the agnostic catagory?

Because, as I explained:
Being agnostic regarding belief in gods is like saying your car has wheels when asked what brand it is. Gnosticism refers only to knowledge; not belief.
Try fully reading my post next time.

a Gnostic Atheist would seem to be a very rare fish.  Only because it implies more knowledge than a person could have.

I am a gnostic atheist (lowercase; it's not a proper noun) because, by my definition of a god, gods cannot exist. I do not require more knowledge than I already have.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 07:56:01 AM »
I am a gnostic atheist (lowercase; it's not a proper noun) because, by my definition of a god, gods cannot exist. I do not require more knowledge than I already have.

I was going to argue with you, then I read "by my definition".  Hmmm,  interesting.  I still think it is a little strange (not considering the possibility that your definition could be wrong) but now I see where you are coming from. 

Offline bertatberts

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 10:05:49 AM »
Mine isn't anybodies definition, I'm 99.99999(ad-infinitum) sure that no god/gods, demons/ devils, orks/fairies etc ...  Exist.
And the reason for that most minuscule of doubts is because I cannot travel the entire universe nor be in every place at the same time to look for any, it would be nonsensical to, no infantile to say with certainty that god/gods don't exist. Considering the above reason. We are all agnostic-atheists. I don't actual doubt it, but it would be foolish to say I was certain. Only religious people claim certainty.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 10:34:21 AM »
Mine isn't anybodies definition, I'm 99.99999(ad-infinitum) sure that no god/gods, demons/ devils, orks/fairies etc ...  Exist.
And the reason for that most minuscule of doubts is because I cannot travel the entire universe nor be in every place at the same time to look for any, it would be nonsensical to, no infantile to say with certainty that god/gods don't exist. Considering the above reason. We are all agnostic-atheists. I don't actual doubt it, but it would be foolish to say I was certain. Only religious people claim certainty.


I am inclined to agree with you.  However, I am only 99.99995% sure there is no god/gods, fairies...

I don't know how to address this with my friend though, he believes 99.999999999999999 leaves open the .00000000000001% making us agnostic.  In the strictest definition of atheist I am not sure that he is wrong.  Very few people would claim that there is absolutely no possibility of god.   but like the WTC being blown up by the illuminatti with thermite charges I am confident that there is likely no god.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 10:38:31 AM »
I am inclined to agree with you.  However, I am only 99.99995% sure there is no god/gods, fairies...

I don't know how to address this with my friend though, he believes 99.999999999999999 leaves open the .00000000000001% making us agnostic.  In the strictest definition of atheist I am not sure that he is wrong.  Very few people would claim that there is absolutely no possibility of god.   but like the WTC being blown up by the illuminatti with thermite charges I am confident that there is likely no god.
Could you ask your friend if s/he can think of any claim that could be reasonably considered as true or false with absolute 100% confidence?

A tangential nitpick @ bertatberts:
99.99999(ad infinitum)% is equal to 100%.

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 10:54:43 AM »
I am inclined to agree with you.  However, I am only 99.99995% sure there is no god/gods, fairies...

I don't know how to address this with my friend though, he believes 99.999999999999999 leaves open the .00000000000001% making us agnostic.  In the strictest definition of atheist I am not sure that he is wrong.  Very few people would claim that there is absolutely no possibility of god.   but like the WTC being blown up by the illuminatti with thermite charges I am confident that there is likely no god.
Could you ask your friend if s/he can think of any claim that could be reasonably considered as true or false with absolute 100% confidence?

A tangential nitpick @ bertatberts:
99.99999(ad infinitum)% is equal to 100%.

In a round about way I just did that.  I asked him if he believed that the strictest definition of theist was possible?  I asked if a theist could be swayed by irrefutable proof.   

Which is what we are talking about with the atheist 99.999999999999%  thing.  If god were to start healing amputees and speaking to us in a credible irrefutable way atheists would become believers. 


Offline neopagan

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 11:03:38 AM »
^^^ seems like a simple thing for an omnimax being to do - worked for Paul and others in their mystical yarns.  Why stop making such appearances?  However, just because I see it, doesn't mean I worship it... that's another step
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:57:45 AM by neopagan »
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2013, 12:15:39 PM »
^^^ seems like a simple thing for an omnimax being to do - worked for Paul and others in their mystical yarns.  Why stop making such appearances?  However, just because I see it, doesn't mean I worship it... that's another step

Recently I have figured out that god becoming apparent does not remove free will.   It just gives informed concent.   You now must decide whether you worship them and or risk hell.  With all the information you will probably make better decisions.

Offline neopagan

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2013, 12:29:01 PM »
I don't understand the supposed universal need to worship something. Heard a pastor say recently we will all worship or make something a god. Of course, his pick was skygod from the list of irrational items he named like money, sex, fame, McDonalds Smurf toys (ok I added that one)

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline bertatberts

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 12:40:45 PM »
A tangential nitpick @ bertatberts:
99.99999(ad infinitum)% is equal to 100%.
Not quite it does leave the very very smallest of margins, even if it is negligible, and insignificant.  And that is only because it would be foolish to have absolute 100% certainty. As you intimate yourself. I am not prepared, to say with certainty that gods do not exist. for the reasons I gave in my previous post.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 01:11:17 PM »
I don't understand the supposed universal need to worship something. Heard a pastor say recently we will all worship or make something a god. Of course, his pick was skygod from the list of irrational items he named like money, sex, fame, McDonalds Smurf toys (ok I added that one)

I think there is a difference between liking to go skiing and worshiping it.  I don't think he is right at all.  I have many hobbies but none of them are worshipped by me.  I like to dabble.  I like money but I do not pursue it insanely at the expense of other things.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2013, 03:08:56 PM »
Tell your friend that I am 100% certain that there are no gods. I might be wrong, but until proven otherwise, I'll treat the universe and my life as if there are none whatsoever.

I have been known to do the bertatberts 99.99999999% thing, just to keep the locals off my back. But I think I would rather say I'm positive that there are no gods, but I'll also say that I'll admit I'm wrong if someone can show otherwise. It accomplishes the same thing without my needing to compromise for the sake of logic, or whatever it is that claims that we can't be certain. Which of course we can't. Except me, in this case. In a round about way.

If there is a god, he knows where to find me. If there isn't a god, I've no idea where to find him.

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Online jynnan tonnix

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 03:19:33 PM »
Wouldn't this work in reverse for theists?

I know it's rare around here to find one who will admit to the possibility that god does not exist, and that their relationship with him, or what have you, could be a delusion. But there are also a lot out there who will concede that there is no way they can know for sure, but that it resonates for them, makes them feel good, and thus is real for them. And I suspect that there are many others who simply won't look at the evidence (or lack thereof), at least partially because they are afraid of what they might find.

There's another thread somewhere around here which touches on this question; that of why, if theists are so convinced that an omniscient god is watching them 24/7, they manage to ever commit any sins.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2013, 03:39:30 PM »
A tangential nitpick @ bertatberts:
99.99999(ad infinitum)% is equal to 100%.
Not quite it does leave the very very smallest of margins, even if it is negligible, and insignificant.  And that is only because it would be foolish to have absolute 100% certainty. As you intimate yourself. I am not prepared, to say with certainty that gods do not exist. for the reasons I gave in my previous post.
It's really just a mathematical nitpick.  0.9999(infinitely repeating) is exactly equal to 1, ergo, 99.999999(infinitely repeating) is exactly equal to 100.

I recognize what you're saying though...I'm just being a math-Nazi at this point :)

Online Graybeard

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 04:33:54 PM »
A gnostic atheist is one who is 100% sure that there are no gods. An agnostic atheist is someone who isn't sure that gods don't exist, but doesn't believe in them. Both are atheists.
Being agnostic regarding belief in gods is like saying your car has wheels when asked what brand it is. Gnosticism refers only to knowledge; not belief.
EDIT: As for the "no atheists in foxholes" thing, tell your friend he/she might want to do a quick search on Google.

I dislike the idea of qualifying "atheist". I see it as being dead or pregnant - you either are or you aren't. If you deny that there are gods, you are an atheist[1]

If you concede, at any level, that there might be gods, then 'agnostic' is your label. 

If you believe there are gods, then you are a theist. The theists then divide themselves into various religions and the religions then divide themselves into sects and the sects have off-shoots, etc., until you arrive at the present position, where everyone imagines their own god, or takes a view on what their god is like.

Edit to correct deist to theist (see below.)
 1. This is always worth repeating: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." --Todd Pataky
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 04:47:50 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Online One Above All

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2013, 04:37:21 PM »
I dislike the idea of qualifying "atheist".
<snip>

We're going to disagree on this, no matter what either of us says. Ergo, I will not discuss it with you.

If you believe there are gods, then you are a deist. The deists then divide themselves into various religions and the religions then divide themselves into sects and the sects have off-shoots, etc., until you arrive at the present position, where everyone imagines their own god, or takes a view on what their god is like.

I think you mean "theist". Deists, AFAIK, are a group of theists (who believe in a hands-off god).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2013, 04:46:18 PM »

I think you mean "theist". Deists, AFAIK, are a group of theists (who believe in a hands-off god).

Thanks. I do. I will amend my post.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Willie

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2013, 11:32:46 PM »
I think that way too much is read into this idea of being 100% certain of something. The conflation of certainty with unreasoning belief is the basis of the frequent accusations that atheists are closed minded, or that we think we're omniscient, or that atheism is as faith-based as theism. But being sure about something, and being closed to reason, are not the same thing.

This may be easier to see when considering a more mundane question than the existence of gods. For example, I am 100% certain that Voldemort, as described in the Harry Potter stories (as opposed to some other person who has only superficial similarities, or who is merely named Voldemort, but is not THE Voldemort) is a fictional character, not an actual person. What this means is that I don't think there is any possibility of the Voldemort character being real. I am not on the fence. I am not "seeking". This does not, however, mean that I am closed to reason, or that I deem myself omniscient. If presented with credible evidence of Voldemort being real, I might become only 99% certain, or 50% certain, or even reverse my position entirely, depending on the strength of the evidence. Encountering such evidence would come as a complete surprise. I have zero expectation that any such evidence exists, and I certainly see no reason to actively hunt for it. But if it turns up, I'll consider it.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:34:21 PM by Willie »

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 12:21:16 AM »
Wouldn't this work in reverse for theists?

I know it's rare around here to find one who will admit to the possibility that god does not exist, and that their relationship with him, or what have you, could be a delusion.

I must admit that all the while I considered myself a believer I always admitted any "relationship" I had with god was either very one-sided or quite dysfunctional because I never had any real sense of communication or feelings.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline epidemic

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 06:56:40 AM »
If you concede, at any level, that there might be gods, then 'agnostic' is your label. 

So in essence you are saying that reserving judgement at any level makes you an agnostic.  So 99.999999999999999999999999... is basically an agnostic?  Then my friend is right that there are virtually no atheists. 

Of course that would apply to theists as well,  if they are open to irrefutable evidence then they are not theists. 

Would it be true to say an atheist that is open to irrefutable evidence is not an atheist and a theist that is open to irrefutable evidence is not a theist?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 07:16:20 AM »
Would it be true to say an atheist that is open to irrefutable evidence is not an atheist and a theist that is open to irrefutable evidence is not a theist?

Atheism, like theism, is a genuinely held belief. Whilst an atheist may be open to irrefutable evidence until that evidence is presented the belief that there are no gods is prevalent one, ergo he/she who holds that beleif is an atheist.

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 07:20:22 AM »
Atheism, like theism, is a genuinely held belief. Whilst an atheist may be open to irrefutable evidence until that evidence is presented the belief that there are no gods is prevalent one, ergo he/she who holds that beleif is an atheist.

If atheism is a belief, then not collecting stamps is a hobby and bald is a hair color.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2013, 07:45:32 AM »
Atheism, like theism, is a genuinely held belief. Whilst an atheist may be open to irrefutable evidence until that evidence is presented the belief that there are no gods is prevalent one, ergo he/she who holds that belief is an atheist.

If atheism is a belief, then not collecting stamps is a hobby and bald is a hair color.

I take your point but i don't think the belief can be equated to non-philately.
I was taking the "genuinely held belief" from equality legislation.

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2013, 07:49:53 AM »
I take your point
<snip>

Clearly you don't, since you're still referring to atheism as a belief. Atheism is the rejection of the theist claim at best; simple non-belief at worst.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: My friend does not believe in Atheists. He is an Aatheist!
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2013, 08:12:39 AM »
I take your point
<snip>

Clearly you don't, since you're still referring to atheism as a belief. Atheism is the rejection of the theist claim at best; simple non-belief at worst.

I admit I'm a little sketchy about what constitutes belief. You can not prove a negative so if you can not "know" something you must believe it?

as i said

I was taking the "genuinely held belief" from equality legislation.

Quote from:  EA 2010
Section 10 Religion or belief
(1) Religion means any religion and a reference to religion includes a reference to a lack of
religion.
(2) Belief means any religious or philosophical belief and a reference to belief includes a
reference to a lack of belief.