Author Topic: Are prophecy and miracles real and how do you prove either to the faithful?  (Read 3060 times)

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Offline eartheconomyspirit

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First things first.

Add Homonym. What a great challenge as usual. And It forces me to make some changes. None, of course, yet that affects the overall theory though.

And I've learned an extremely important lesson . I need to explain the theory by starting at Corruption 1 and working my way forward, for fear that the big picture will be lost sight of.

Thanks for that. That's why I love this site.

Now to address your points.

"This nicely explains:
(1) why they are not mentioned by name
(2) why carbon dating doesn't support any theories
(3) why there is no historical information that jumps out at you, besides a date which puts it rather early
(4) why it talks about apocalyptic shit that happened after the Teacher's death"

1) They didn't mention names because the threat against the Qumran Community and the Righteous Teacher was a current and ongoing threat. The Agrippa;s and Pharisees still held authority write up to 66AD when The dead sea scrolls were hidden by Rome's attack on Jerusalem. I suspect it was a second level defence against the texts discovery. 

2) I didn't see anything relating to carbon dating in the article. Please provide a reference.

3) The dates referred to by quoting the Damascus Document is 207BC plus twenty years (187BC). There is no specific connection to these dates and the Righteous Teacher.

"For when they were unfaithful and forsook him, He hid His face from Israel and His Sanctuary and delivered them up to the sword. But remembering the Covenant of the forefathers, He left a remnant to Israel and did not deliver it up to be destroyed. And in the age of wrath, 390 years after He had given them into the hand of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, He is visiting (paqad) them, and He will cause a plant root to spring from Israel and Aaron to inherit His Land and to prosper on the good things of His earth. And they will perceive their iniquity and will recognize that they are guilty men, yet for 20 years they will be like blind men groping for a way. And God will observe their deeds, that they sought Him with a whole heart, and He will raise for them a Teacher of Righteousness to guide them in the way of His heart."

Note: The Author, suggests a future tense, to support his idea of a messianic telling of this tale.

I don't think so, 207BC could be seen as the point in Time that marked the Rise of the Roman Empire (the age of wrath) . At least in terms of its direct threat upon Israel. It was in this year that Rome  took over Carthage and was moving eastward. Maybe it took twenty years for the Pharisees to find footing with Rome. In the process they may have created the Qumran Community and given the leaders position that title of the Righteous Teacher or it is a reference to the impact that someone like Jesus had and he was first to earn the title.

Now to the change. I hadn't come across this quote

"This refers to the Wicked Priest who had a reputation for reliability at the beginning of his term of service; but when he became ruler over Israel, he became proud and forsook God and betrayed the commandments for the sake of riches. He amassed by force the riches of the lawless who had rebelled against God, seizing the riches of the peoples, thus adding to the guilt of his crimes, and he committed abhorrent deeds in every defiling impurity."

This made me think that Paul, wasn't the wicked priest at all. It was either Herod Antipas or Herod Agrippa 1 (See my Corruption 3 theory) . I think they held the title of King and Chief Priest. I'll have to check that though.

The liar, then is Paul and that makes sense, when you regard him as never being converted and operating as a Pharisee evangelist trying to lure the lost sheep back to a Jewish Sect. Paul also would have been alive at the time. More reason for not declaring the names.

Thanks again for that, It'll we go in to the book.

4) The author is from the Pharisaic traditions. He talks about apocalyptic stuff because he either believes it or knows it is fundamental to his theology. Me I don't think its real at all. This point is another reason why we should look at Corruption 1 first. My claim is that Cyrus the Great made up the Book of Isaiah and that it related to all things passed by 538BC. He produced to the captive Jewish people and said it was written 140 years before and predicted the dilemmas and hardships that had fallen upon them.

1) Proto- Isaiah.  He blamed them for upsetting their God to establish guilt and feigned prophecy. 
2) Deutro - Isaiah.  He made himself their Gods best friend. Just like he did with Marduk and the Babylonians in 540BC. The birth of messiah complex 
3) Tritro - Isaiah. He laid out some new rules.

 
"Call me a pedant, but if it was about Christianity, it would sort of be jumping out at you. It is therefore more likely that this is a document about total crap, oblivious of Jesus, rather than something that was written to foil modern Christians. If it was written to foil modern Christians, then some facts would stand out."

It wasn't thought as Christianity back then. Just another Jewish Faction. Let's call them Essenes. Emperor Nerva and Agrippa's Pharisee alliance (Essenes) were the ones who started foiling the "Christians". 

If I was going to build a knock-down interpretation of what Christianity really was, then I'd like something that appeared to be a fact on my side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Priest

Again, lets start with Cyrus the Great and work forward.







Pesher Habakkuk, Col. 8:8–13

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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What we are sure of, unfortunately, is that there are no documents that directly expose Christianity. It's not because Christianity is true or anything, but because
- If there is any document, it has not been discovered yet
There is the Gospel of Thomas and it has 114 sayings recorded as having been said by Jesus. There exists a Bible with four gospels. 100 years before the GOT was discovered scholars speculated about a "Q" source. The GOT would be what a Q source looks like.  "Josephus of the Flavians" or Nerva depending on your assessment, although spurious, had to base his tale on some reality to gain credibility given it was available to people close to the times  in question. He thought it worthwhile to mention a person by the name of Jesus.

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- The documentation from this period is rather poor, and politically motivated

Correct. Hence you need to look at a larger picture and look for the patterns and motives. Good reason for the saying the (D)evils in the detail.

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- Christians have had a few years to ditch anything they don't like, and fix up anything they do like

Correct. And the cherry on that cake was Constantine another guy that thought of himself as Great.

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- Christianity may have arisen rather quickly in a historical vacuum, so no contemporary commentator had a revealing opinion on it, and if they did, Christians deleted them

Correct. Hope that's not my fate :-)

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- It appears to be rather easy to have faked documents, and the benefit of the doubt always goes to the Christians

Time to challenge that.

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- Any documents come without context or obvious veracity, and may have been faked in 1400 for all we know

My scope is to 325AD. However, I get what you say about those 1400's. But Medici(ne) me thinks. But first things first.

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This has lead to most arguments against Christianity being arguments from silence, logic, or critique of their official texts. This creates a rather big blind spot on Atheists, when considering unorthodox Christianities.  There is actually no way we can cope with liberals, who reckon that substantial amounts have been faked, and they have some radical new interpretation, since we can't even verify the official one, and the official version is a stationary target.

Sounds like you haven'r read my summary. Now that's sad :-)


Tough Crew, just the way I like it.


edit - fixed quotes, I hope.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 11:44:27 AM by screwtape »

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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I have a sense that some of you won't engage because you may be afraid that your beliefs may be threatened. Sound familiar :-) You see I don't think you guys know for sure yourselves. In that light you are no different from the religious folks. Just another "church of the believers". Of course, I could be wrong.

I'll tell you what. You christians get together and find a way to agree on what the bible says, what it means, and what it proves or otherwise demonstrates in a satisfying way, and I'll give your excuses a listen. But as long as there are tens of thousands of interpretations of that which is often called "the perfect word of god", I'm not going to get too excited about it.

Start again, I'm not a Christian. I do however know that the GOT has a Go(o)d philosophy. Something that would sit comfortably with Plato.

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My atheism is not christian specific. I have no reason to believe in any of the gods proposed over the ages. Well, if there is a god of strawberries, I really like strawberries and I might think about that one for a millisecond or two. Otherwise, nope. Of course if you can ever demonstrate that belief in your god is in any way advantageous in this life or prove beyond any doubt that the afterlife is real, I'll give your belief system a second chance. But since you can't even sort of kinda demonstrate that your god could just maybe be, sorta, real, if you tilt your head and squint, I have no interest.

Let's try and explain this thing called Go(o)d simply for you.

“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”

The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

No MAGIc, no prophecy, no doomsday, other than the things we humans create and no angels or devils.

There you go. You don't even need a big book. All you need to do to know this thing called Go(o)d is to follow the Go(o)d wolf and be authentically selfless :-)

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Of course, you could try matchings christianity with observed reality. I know that's asking a lot, but it would go a long way in making it slightly harder for me to dismiss it. Your god, in an effort to differentiate himself from all the other gods, decided to stay invisible, just like the others. Because he's not clear on any concept. Which isn't helping. In the meantime, I shall continue to conclude that all religions, including christianity, are myths. Just like myths are myths.


Done that with the GOT Jesus sayings. Chapter 2 and 3 in the summary. Would n't attempt that with Christianity though. Can't find a demon to test their theories.

Their is only one Go(o)d wolf and a 41,000 and counting interpretations.

Correct. Myths are myths.

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In the meantime, while you're diving into scripture and trying to come up with something new and convincing, could you, while you're in there, color code the bible so that we could have some final authority on which parts are literal, which are metaphorical, which are allegory, etc. That too would really help.

Done that too. In a sense. I compared the GOT to the Bible's Gospels and identified why Christianity's leaders excluded the 50+ sayings. That's Chapter 3 of your summary.

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Until then, you could spend a little time coming up with a really good excuse as to why the bible is so unconvincing. I've heard thousands of poor excuses, but no really good ones. But hey, a guy can hope.

Not a fan of the Bible.

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In the meantime, you go ahead and do what you can to clarify the ridiculous. I appreciate your interest. There are historical things I am interested in too. Of course I tend to restrict my interests to stuff that, you know, actually happened, but hey, that's just me.

Me too.
 
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All of this is to tell you that I am very different from a believer. Not only do I lack the necessary gullibility, and lack the necessary fear of death, I also passed kindergarten on the first try so I know what fairy tales are. All of those things combine to distance me from such nonsense.


Go(o)d for you. But you still have to settle with a belief position on your atheism, making you a believing short on certainty. It is what it is.


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The next time you try to shove the demeaning "church of believers" label down my throat, watch out. I might start insulting you and your religion or something. You wouldn't want that.

Bring it on. I've seen how disrespectful some of you guys have been. As they give so shall they receive. Seems only fair :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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But we can start with this from the article " There is no agreement over who they were". That alone allows room for other speculations. And if you add to that speculation my 5 Corruptions theory, you should easily see how "Jesus" was the righteous Teacher.

Why! It could be Simon of peraea, or Athronges, or Menahem Ben Judah, or even Vespasian, why are you so certain it was a person called Jesus. It's is a huge assumption to say it is a Jesus person, considering there isn't one shred of contemporaneous evidence for such a person.

Please don't try to convince me you are correct you're not making any sense whatsoever. You're jumping to far to many conclusions. To be taken seriously.

Yes that's true to a degree. Far too many though is an inaccurate assessment. You haven't even seen all on my assumptions and there are heaps of them in the theory. I will grant you that I am not sure about Jesus. What I am sure of though, is someone said the Jesus sayings in the gospel of Thomas. And they are valid interpretations of the human condition. I am confident there was a Righteous Teacher at the Qumran Community and that someone got up the Pharisees noses by calling their fake interpretation for what it is. I am also confident that Emperor Nerva had a hand in the Works of Josephus Flavian and a large part of what is known to day as the Bible.

I'm also sure, its time to take a more serious look at this stuff. Particularly if you consider how it relates to wars.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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As you can see, I still can't drive this quote thing :-)

Quesi, there is no diety thingee, from what I can tell.

It's just these two wolves inside us all.

“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

Even "Jesus" in the GOT says so.

30 Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."

See, he's with the two wolves. When he says one, he refers to that notion of enlightenment. The person who commits to the Go(o)d wolf.

Nothing complex at all really.



Offline ParkingPlaces

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Go(o)d for you. But you still have to settle with a belief position on your atheism, making you a believing short on certainty. It is what it is.


I don't quite see why you are interested in the history of the bible without being a christian, but that's up to you. Lacking any beliefs related to the book, I am somewhat at a disadvantage trying to parse why anyone would be interested in it.

Anyway, I will never understand why it is so hard to explain to people that atheism is not a belief. By definition, it isn't, in fact it isn't, and yet people still insist on heaping the idea of belief on us and insist that it is so. It isn't. As far as I can tell, this attempt at making us equals who disagree comes from the believers desire to project their type mental process on others. When it comes to atheists, beliefs surrounding this subject do not apply. At least for me, and, from what I can gather, most of the other atheists who hang around this site.

Talking to another person on the forum earlier today (or perhaps last night), I used this analogy. If a person said that it was possible to get a gallon of oil out of a penny, and you recognized that claim as ridiculous, does that make you a non-believer in oil from pennies, or simply someone who dismisses that possibility. I say you would be the latter.

Others proposed gods, not me. Others claim they know theirs. I have none to know. No part of my life, outside the occasional discussion about atheism and/or squabbles with believers, here on the Internet mostly, involves my atheism in any active way. I am not influenced by some imagined "belief" when i decide to do things right or wrong. Other factors, or course, are relevant. I don't steal, for instance, because stuff that isn't mine isn't mine, not because I imagine there is no god looking over my shoulder so I'd better not do it, or whatever role it is you think "believing in no god" should play in a persons life. I certainly have the requisite sense of right and wrong, but none of my choices in those departments includes any consideration of the non-god in my life.

I pay attention to the humans. Like yesterday, when I attacked you, out of frustration because of your claims, I do at times do things I'm not proud of, even though it is fun. At other times, I do the right thing by anybody's standards. But I do it without a non-god belief being involved. Are other, completely unreligious factors at play? Are other beliefs taken into consideration? You bet your sweet bippy. But none are related to my atheism. My lack of belief is of no interest to my moral or social or personal self. Other than for the fun of it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Go(o)d for you. But you still have to settle with a belief position on your atheism, making you a believing short on certainty. It is what it is.


I think I meant to say making you a believer short on or of certainty about your position :-)

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I don't quite see why you are interested in the history of the bible without being a christian, but that's up to you. Lacking any beliefs related to the book, I am somewhat at a disadvantage trying to parse why anyone would be interested in it.

Its more that I am interested in why we can't resolve to not have wars. I was also curious why the GOT never made the cut.

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Anyway, I will never understand why it is so hard to explain to people that atheism is not a belief. By definition, it isn't, in fact it isn't, and yet people still insist on heaping the idea of belief on us and insist that it is so. It isn't. As far as I can tell, this attempt at making us equals who disagree comes from the believers desire to project their type mental process on others. When it comes to atheists, beliefs surrounding this subject do not apply. At least for me, and, from what I can gather, most of the other atheists who hang around this site.

I am afraid I must disagree. You have a position, yet you cannot effectively prove your position nor disprove that which you choose not to believe. If this statement was inaccurate, there'd be no religion because you would have proved your point. And here's the key word effectively. You simply believe you hold the right answer. No that's exactly what religious folk do. As far as I can tell your all playing a belief game. Me, I'm after the facts and the knowing game. Seek and Find, not seek and believe.

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Talking to another person on the forum earlier today (or perhaps last night), I used this analogy. If a person said that it was possible to get a gallon of oil out of a penny, and you recognized that claim as ridiculous, does that make you a non-believer in oil from pennies, or simply someone who dismisses that possibility. I say you would be the latter.

If I get 80%+ of my assumptions across the line, do you think I could move to the former position :-) You have to remember, this is a challenging subject, with many twists and turns. But if you have a 900 year or so theory that meets most circumstances with some measure of logic and what we know about human behaviour, perhaps ...

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Others proposed gods, not me. Others claim they know theirs. I have none to know. No part of my life, outside the occasional discussion about atheism and/or squabbles with believers, here on the Internet mostly, involves my atheism in any active way. I am not influenced by some imagined "belief" when i decide to do things right or wrong. Other factors, or course, are relevant. I don't steal, for instance, because stuff that isn't mine isn't mine, not because I imagine there is no god looking over my shoulder so I'd better not do it, or whatever role it is you think "believing in no god" should play in a persons life. I certainly have the requisite sense of right and wrong, but none of my choices in those departments includes any consideration of the non-god in my life.


Go(o)d for you and those near and dear to you. I tend to think of all spirituality/ religion/philosophy/ psychology et al..  as just a study of the two wolves I mentioned in another post. It really isn't much more than that. But wars and egos are real and they need to be challenged at the basis of their reality. Or something like that. Things aren't improved by leaving fabrications unattended to. At least that's what history tells me. Believe it or not.

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I pay attention to the humans. Like yesterday, when I attacked you, out of frustration because of your claims, I do at times do things I'm not proud of, even though it is fun. At other times, I do the right thing by anybody's standards. But I do it without a non-god belief being involved. Are other, completely unreligious factors at play? Are other beliefs taken into consideration? You bet your sweet bippy. But none are related to my atheism. My lack of belief is of no interest to my moral or social or personal self. Other than for the fun of it.

So you say :-)


Offline ParkingPlaces

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I pay attention to the humans. Like yesterday, when I attacked you, out of frustration because of your claims, I do at times do things I'm not proud of, even though it is fun. At other times, I do the right thing by anybody's standards. But I do it without a non-god belief being involved. Are other, completely unreligious factors at play? Are other beliefs taken into consideration? You bet your sweet bippy. But none are related to my atheism. My lack of belief is of no interest to my moral or social or personal self. Other than for the fun of it.

So you say :-)



No. So I do.

I suggest that you concentrate on that which you know or think you know, and stay away from what you think I know. I shall do the same in return.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline shnozzola

When the "war" was done. The Maccabees wrote the Book of Daniel. Around 160BC . Quite a careless job too,  in terms of the relationships of the Babylon rulers. A number of historical blunders there.  Although the Maccabees and their sympathizers started the affair, In Daniel their God blames the Hellenized Jews for the dilemma. Further he invites them back to appease their concept of God giving tips on how that all works. This is a similar strategy that Cyrus Users in babylon. Once with Marduk, God of the Babylonians and Then with Yahweh, God of the Jewish people.

I do not see how you can dig in the weeds of historical Christianity, and say this or that is not historically accurate based on this or that, while insisting that Jesus rose from the dead, based on this or that.  And for many Christians, IMO sadly, the whole religion falls apart without the belief in the resurrection.

But anyway, that really isn't the point, is it?  The point is, what is belief in god doing to society today - extreme Islam ( Taliban, Al Qaeda types) or extreme Christianity ( Westboro baptists and fundamentalist Kenyans burning people as witches).

It seems most Christians are interested in facts that reinforce their views.  For myself, I am interested in facts that point to the truth, not worrying that it may point to no god at all or some type of god.  This faith thing in an all powerful creator that created what we are learning is so vast of a universe, gets more meaningless the more humanity learns.

 That powerful of a thing that judges me only on belief of it, is ...... if I live the most loving life I can, but lack only the belief is this thing, and I learn at my death that, strangely, the most fundamentalist Christians believing in eternal hell (and heaven and resurrection and creation and 7 days and Noah and 10,000 years)  are correct, I don't care.  I will keep yelling questions eternally from hell.  I will be like Gandhi attempting to put my id card in a burning trash can.
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline eartheconomyspirit

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I pay attention to the humans. Like yesterday, when I attacked you, out of frustration because of your claims, I do at times do things I'm not proud of, even though it is fun. At other times, I do the right thing by anybody's standards. But I do it without a non-god belief being involved. Are other, completely unreligious factors at play? Are other beliefs taken into consideration? You bet your sweet bippy. But none are related to my atheism. My lack of belief is of no interest to my moral or social or personal self. Other than for the fun of it.

So you say :-)



No. So I do.

I suggest that you concentrate on that which you know or think you know, and stay away from what you think I know. I shall do the same in return.

Oh, so you're Go(o)d. I've been looking for you.

I can see what you say, and by your own admission you don't always do what you say. I wouldn't be overly concerned, your not alone :-)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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^^^

Well, at least I don't have your e(g)o or whatever you call it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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When the "war" was done. The Maccabees wrote the Book of Daniel. Around 160BC . Quite a careless job too,  in terms of the relationships of the Babylon rulers. A number of historical blunders there.  Although the Maccabees and their sympathizers started the affair, In Daniel their God blames the Hellenized Jews for the dilemma. Further he invites them back to appease their concept of God giving tips on how that all works. This is a similar strategy that Cyrus Users in babylon. Once with Marduk, God of the Babylonians and Then with Yahweh, God of the Jewish people.

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I do not see how you can dig in the weeds of historical Christianity, and say this or that is not historically accurate based on this or that, while insisting that Jesus rose from the dead, based on this or that.  And for many Christians, IMO sadly, the whole religion falls apart without the belief in the resurrection.

Hey you, don't misquote me :-) I never said Jesus rose from the dead. I've been kind enough to do my research and provide a summary of that. That took quite a while. See my post on " Your all barking up the wrong trees". All I ask is you spend a few minutes reading the summary. 

Resurrection was a concoction of the Cyrus inspired Pharisee tradition. The original Jewish Tradition saw people going to Sheol (not sure if I've spelt that right).

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But anyway, that really isn't the point, is it?  The point is, what is belief in god doing to society today - extreme Islam ( Taliban, Al Qaeda types) or extreme Christianity ( Westboro baptists and fundamentalist Kenyans burning people as witches).

And how does being an atheist help the situation. Its akin to sticking your head in the sand from where I sit. Or as useful as tits on a bull.
I agree with you. Religion (and I'll add empire as the root cause) are the problem. I just choose to prove that point and put that proof to the test, looks like the first issue is getting people to read it :-)

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It seems most Christians are interested in facts that reinforce their views.  For myself, I am interested in facts that point to the truth, not worrying that it may point to no god at all or some type of god.  This faith thing in an all powerful creator that created what we are learning is so vast of a universe, gets more meaningless the more humanity learns.

Obviously, living in your own mind at the present. Read the other posts and engage the bigger picture  :-)

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That powerful of a thing that judges me only on belief of it, is ...... if I live the most loving life I can, but lack only the belief is this thing, and I learn at my death that, strangely, the most fundamentalist Christians believing in eternal hell (and heaven and resurrection and creation and 7 days and Noah and 10,000 years)  are correct, I don't care.  I will keep yelling questions eternally from hell.  I will be like Gandhi attempting to put my id card in a burning trash can.

As above. This thing called Go(o)d is not about believe its about knowing. And I suspect you won't be yelling from a place that is NOT available after death. Haven't you heard the term hell on earth or heaven is a place on earth. They are probably closer to the truth.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 04:58:46 PM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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^^^

Well, at least I don't have your e(g)o or whatever you call it.

Since when, did saying it as it appears, relate to ego. I'd like to think, that I'm not intimidated by you or your rash statements. Now here's something you should know about ego. It can never see its own flaws. It suffers from denial. It refuses to examine things that threaten its existence. It's reactionary. It's a part of all humanity just as this thing called Go(o)d. At least that's what some say.

“An old Cherokee told his grandson “There is a battle between two wolves inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, jealousy, greed, resentment, inferiority, lies and ego. The other is go(o)d. It is joy, love, peace, hope, humility, kindness, empathy and truth.”
The boy thought about it, and asked “Grandfather, which wolf wins?”The old man quietly replied. “The one you feed.”

Have you ever heard the phrase " takes one to know one " :-)

Looks like its going to be another Go(o)d day. Enjoy yours and don't let these debates trouble you to much. Its just a discussion, and we all have the right answers, right.   :-)

Oh, and put your assumptions aside for a minute and do some research :-)

 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 04:56:35 PM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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This may be more productive if we start with my Claims of corruption.

Corruption 1. Judaism was corrupted by Cyrus the Great between 540-538BC when he and his  Zoroastrian MAGI made up the Book of Isaiah. They then told their captive audience that this Book was written 140 years ago and they had just found the only surviving copy. Isaiah had correctly "predicted" that the Assyrians and Babylonians under Yahwehs commands had decided to beat up the bad shepherds because of the lack of respect for Yahweh. The captives believed this story and in so doing both power and guilt were established. 

Next Isaiah" predicts" that Cyrus will come to save the shepherds and send them back with a new sense of identity to govern the lands of Israelm an important land bridge from an empire builders perspective. Cyrus the messiah and Yahwehs confident is their new hero.

Then Isaiah based on advice from Yahweh, lets the shepherds ( with the new sense of pride) know how to redeem themselves and stay in Go(o)d favour.

Cyrus and his new priests (Pharisees eventually) now own the Samaritans and original Jewish religious story.

Evidence: Cyrus Cylinder and Scholarly opinion (100 years old now) on the structure of Isaiah. Google to check :-)

And to show the longevity of this Cyrus corruption (there is other evidence as well) in the Nag Hammadi Library you'll find  a piece called the Apocryphon (secret writings) of John. Search it for the words Zoroaster and Arimanius

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimanius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 05:29:38 PM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline shnozzola

First, I might have realized your position in the belief cafeteria rejects some things such as hell and the resurrection .  Good, I was like that as a Christian for many years.  It may mean that your beliefs are as harmless to society as mine.

Obviously, living in your own mind at the present. Read the other posts and engage the bigger picture  :-)

Funny how we both feel the same about each other.  I would say we need more faith in each other, in humanity, and the problem, IMO, with theism, is exactly that a belief in god wrongly replaces that belief.  It sounds like you have watered that belief down to the word "good," which is fine.  Would you say you no longer believe in a supernatural being?  In your search, what has your definition of god become?
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline ParkingPlaces

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That you are saying that your research is finding important and relevant stuff and then presenting it on an obscure atheistic forum rather than publishing it in scholarly tomes probably indicates that I was wrong about your e(g)o.

My interest in the various folks who have shown up here and claimed new knowledge and insights about various aspects of their version of their religion is minimal, because their track record sucks.

I don't need minutia to reject religion. All I need to know is that it is all bunk. I have listened and listened as various believers tried to tell me their side of the story, and none of it has ever made any sense. A person all excited about ancient prophecies isn't likely to get me any more excited than someone else who thinks that the Council of Nicea deliberately hid the truth by rejecting various religious writings. I don't care. There is no god, so the details are of no importance.

Now it may sound like I'm closed minded, etc. when I say those words, but given that I haven't seen one shred of verifiable evidence in my entire life, I just sort of gave up getting all excited about it. I assume that if there really is a god, the dude knows how to make me realize it, and if he doesn't have the energy for that, the likelihood of me worshipping him is zero anyway.

It's not my job to break the impasse. I'm not the omnipotent one. And the various religious folks, floundering in their own version of reality, are not, as of this date, impressing me at all. Hence my blasé attitude.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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First, I might have realized your position in the belief cafeteria rejects some things such as hell and the resurrection .  Good, I was like that as a Christian for many years.  It may mean that your beliefs are as harmless to society as mine.

Obviously, living in your own mind at the present. Read the other posts and engage the bigger picture  :-)

Funny how we both feel the same about each other.  I would say we need more faith in each other, in humanity, and the problem, IMO, with theism, is exactly that a belief in god wrongly replaces that belief.  It sounds like you have watered that belief down to the word "good," which is fine.  Would you say you no longer believe in a supernatural being?  In your search, what has your definition of god become?

Research first :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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That you are saying that your research is finding important and relevant stuff and then presenting it on an obscure atheistic forum rather than publishing it in scholarly tomes probably indicates that I was wrong about your e(g)o.

My interest in the various folks who have shown up here and claimed new knowledge and insights about various aspects of their version of their religion is minimal, because their track record sucks.

I don't need minutia to reject religion. All I need to know is that it is all bunk. I have listened and listened as various believers tried to tell me their side of the story, and none of it has ever made any sense. A person all excited about ancient prophecies isn't likely to get me any more excited than someone else who thinks that the Council of Nicea deliberately hid the truth by rejecting various religious writings. I don't care. There is no god, so the details are of no importance.

Now it may sound like I'm closed minded, etc. when I say those words, but given that I haven't seen one shred of verifiable evidence in my entire life, I just sort of gave up getting all excited about it. I assume that if there really is a god, the dude knows how to make me realize it, and if he doesn't have the energy for that, the likelihood of me worshipping him is zero anyway.

It's not my job to break the impasse. I'm not the omnipotent one. And the various religious folks, floundering in their own version of reality, are not, as of this date, impressing me at all. Hence my blasé attitude.

How's that going for you and the rest of us ? :-)

P.S. The full book (400 pages)  is with a publisher and in content review. ETA September, I hope. Think of this exercise as you would a scratching post. Novice author and all.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:22:26 PM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline Graybeard

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The full book (400 pages)  is with a publisher and in content review.
Obscure text + fantasy prone personality + disregard for scientific processes = world-shattering, paradigm-shifting discovery.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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The full book (400 pages)  is with a publisher and in content review.
Obscure text + fantasy prone personality + disregard for scientific processes = world-shattering, paradigm-shifting discovery.

And all that without a shred of evidence to support your claims Beardy. :-)

Go(o)d to see Sensorship and Ignorance are still valued commodities amongst these believing sects and some "open" forums.

Here's the text that Beardy removed/sensored, accompanied by his regal determination.

My response. At least take one simple conclusion about Cyrus the Great and the corruption of Judaism to task to prove your impetuous and unsubstantiated claims. You know examine the evidence.

Careful though, it could knock you of your pedestal, so handle with care. You have been warned.  Fortunately, I don't have your leanings towards unkindness, so don't take the warning to seriously, but do handle it carefully. If the penny should ever drop, it may prove a little awkward. That too will pass, apparently. All go(o)d.

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

 :-)

PM content removed.

It is a violation of policy to post PMs without the permission of all parties involved.   Do not do this in the future.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:35:15 AM by screwtape »

Offline Graybeard

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[...] Sensorship [...]
Censorship is spelled with a 'c'.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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I suspect that eartheconomyspirit is serving a 25-to-life sentence in a prison with computer access. How else could anyone have that kind of time on their hands? I know I don't. :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline neopagan

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^^^ I knew something was up.  Wait til he posts his screenplay he sent to Mel Gibs(o)n on GOT
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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I will believe a miracle if I see one.  If a prayer is answered I will believe there is a god.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Graybeard

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It is quite clear from Revelation that John the Divine is the same person as John the Untreated Schizophrenic. Nobody today who had these delusions would be denied medical treatment but there was no possibility of Obamacare in Iron Age Palastine.

So let us look at the ramblings of this lunatic as if he were actually saying something:

The 144,000 are explained in Re:7

Re:7:1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Re:7:2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Re:7:3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Re:7:4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


So we see that the 144,000 will not appear until the 7th Seal is broken:

Re:14:1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[…]
Re:14:14: And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.[…]
Re:14:18: And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Re:14:19: And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Re:14:20: And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


So now let’s look at what eartheconomyspirit says:

[...]
Yet, from another independent source from the same era, the Jewish Talmud, we have this historical event recorded.

“The struggle lasted for three years before the revolt was brutally crushed in the summer of 135 CE. After losing Jerusalem, Bar Kokhba and the remnants of his army withdrew to the fortress of Betar, which also subsequently came under siege. The Jerusalem Talmud relates that the numbers slain were enormous, that the Romans "went on killing until their horses were submerged in blood to their nostrils".[10]The Talmud also relates that for seventeen years the Romans did not allow the Jews to bury their dead in Betar”

The Bar Kokhba revolt occurred between 132-136AD. It was the third of three Jewish conflicts with Rome.

OK. Is everyone (atheist and Christian alike) happy that the 7th Seal has not been broken?

Good…

Here is the sign of eartheconomyspirit’s willingness to put aside all evidence in the hopes of persuading the gullible that there is a real prophecy in the Bible. Why do you believe a folktale? Obscure text + fantasy prone personality + disregard for scientific processes = world-shattering, paradigm-shifting discovery.

Eartheconomyspirit,

There are no prophecies – nobody can see the future. It is true that we can say what is likely, but that, in itself, is not remarkable.


« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:09:07 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jaimehlers

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So, Eartheconomyspirit has apparently found evidence that a book of the Old Testament, Isaiah, was essentially made up out of whole cloth and purported to have been written centuries earlier, and he calls this the corruption of Judaism.  So, let's say he's correct and Cyrus the Great did write up this book.  So, knowing (not just suspecting) that part of the Bible is false, doesn't that call the rest of the Bible into question?

Offline neopagan

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As near as I can tell, and Hermes knows I could be way off on this given his nebulous theology, EES rejects the bible in favor of the GoT.  Why he doesn't pursue the same criticisms with GoT is bey(o)nd me.  Apparently, GoT came through unscathed and is all truth, whereas the others were corrupted. Whaaa...?
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline William

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Why he doesn't pursue the same criticisms with GoT is bey(o)nd me.

Easy  :)   He thinks the target market for his book (and his personal glory-seeking) is looking for something new to believe that won't (maybe) get them in trouble for eternity.  A new excusiology that breaks with the absurdities in the bible canon, but doesn't require a change of gods and the attendant risks that would entail.  EES's unique selling proposition (USP) is that you can jettison the OT and practically everything about the NT and most religion, without having to say you don't want to be saved by Jesus. 

Some Christians will buy that USP because it offers an escape hatch from the obvious theological nonsense they know they are caught up in.  EES wants the Bible to be called into question  :police:  GOT has nowhere near the same amount of baggage to explain away.  GOT is a smaller target.  And EES wants to be its guru ... Go(o)d's g(u)ru :angel:

He brought some of his ideas (and e(g)o) here with the objective of demonstrating atheists wouldn't bother with GOT much, and to show he got under our skin.  He now has just the ammo he needs for his audience, plus a lot more google hits and traffic to his internet presence. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 10:55:46 AM by William »
Git mit uns

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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I did that.  ^^^  Looked for a way to hold on to faith and Jesus while tossing out what I could not stomach.  Looked for other writings that made faith look better.  It worked for a while until it didn't.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.