Author Topic: It is funny that theists will never answer me.  (Read 3680 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« on: August 16, 2013, 09:30:02 AM »
When I ask the question:

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

I mean the obvious answer is "yes." but I cannot recall one ever saying an unconditional "yes." I can recall theist going  "you do" or ignoring the question.

But not once answering truthfully. Is it they know the only correct answer, 'yes,' completely undermines the theist position, and therefore refuse?

 

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline William

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2013, 09:49:00 AM »
When I ask the question:

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

The problem is you are equating "hallucinate" and "exaggerate" with "lie"

To "lie" is a clearly a sin, but to "hallucinate" and "exaggerate" the properties of the Omnipotent Omniscient Almighty cannot be argued with :angel: 

It's open slather for creative theism - talk up God any way you like and it's perfectly okay - but never a lie  :o

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Offline neopagan

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 09:56:03 AM »
They do know the honest answer, but don't want to give you any ground in the argument... completely missing the point that by hedging their bets and dissembling, they totally undermine their own position.  As of late, I have heard a few comments like "satan is controlling your brain," if I question such things. 

Having lived the xian life for 30+ years (I'm spitting on the floor now... 7 months "sober"), I know precious few thesits who had any concept or appreciation for logic (or even identifying when they stepped into a logical fallacy).  Why I compartmentalized logic into something else I used in life, but not theism, is a puzzle to me still (long term temporary insanity?).
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 11:15:09 AM »
When I ask the question:

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

The problem is you are equating "hallucinate" and "exaggerate" with "lie"

Not at all. Do people smoke tobacco, drink alchohol, and eat fatty foods? They are all possibly health damaging activities, but they are not equivalents.

The argument goes like this:

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

Yes? OK

Then when someone makes a claim, whether in person or in an ancient text, there is a possiblity that such a claim is a hallucination, lie, or exaggeration.

If this claim lies outside of the way you see the world working with your owns senses, it should be treated with skepticism. A talking cat for instance. They could have hallucinated that a cat talked, or lied about it to make them seem cool to their cat loving friends, or even it could have been an exaggeration about the sounds the cat were making being somewhat similar to a few words of human speech.

Since this is how you treat everything else in your life, why do you make a special exception for the Bible and miracles people claim based on it happening with prayer? What makes you so sure they are not a hallicination, lie, or exaggeration?



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2013, 11:19:16 AM »
The reason they won't answer it is the same reason most people won't answer the question, "do people masturbate?" honestly.  By acknowledging that some people masturbate, they're leaving themselves open to the insinuation that they might masturbate.

Offline William

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 11:30:55 AM »
Then when someone makes a claim, whether in person or in an ancient text, there is a possiblity that such a claim is a hallucination, lie, or exaggeration.
But where is the escape hatch for the theist? 
They might be hallucinating (not their fault if God gives them visions), or exaggerating (egotistical God, as we know Him from the Bible, will not have any problem with this), but to lie!!! :o ... that is to bear false witness and is against the ten commandments  :o
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Online One Above All

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 11:33:58 AM »
Theists never answer the hard questions. Or the easy questions. Or the medium-difficulty questions.
IMO it's because the questions make them think (doubt), and they can't handle that.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2013, 11:37:45 AM »
But where is the escape hatch for the theist? 
Faith.

It is the ultimate trump card.  It is the socially-sanctioned tool for eliminating the accountability and verifiability.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline William

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 11:58:37 AM »
Faith.

Oh yes, they'll squirm right into that like a PFD class 1 on the Costa Concordia.
But not while admitting to the lead-belt of a lie.

See as a theist one is entitled to make Psalms, or to make a bit of midrash to the glory of the Lord.  God likes a bit of shit-hype and confers glory and grace upon those who sprout it.  "Lies" are a different category - no genuine theist is capable of genuine lies - the stuff that passes their lips is all inspired by the Holy Casper or God Himself when Holy Casper is on vacation. 
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Offline neopagan

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2013, 12:48:18 PM »
we hear how god is love, god is peace, god is justice... blah, blah, blah...

could it be that god "is" a logical fallacy?  there is just no way around a god making no sense, so call it what it is.
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Hatter23

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2013, 02:37:55 PM »
But where is the escape hatch for the theist? 
Faith.

It is the ultimate trump card.  It is the socially-sanctioned tool for eliminating the accountability and verifiability.
My answer:

Faith? Don't you actually care what you believe is true or not?

(Thank you Matt Dilahunte)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »
Faith.

It is the ultimate trump card.  It is the socially-sanctioned tool for eliminating the accountability and verifiability.
My answer:

Faith? Don't you actually care what you believe is true or not?

(Thank you Matt Dilahunte)
There should be exactly zero sentient entities in the universe that answer 'no' to that question.

Sadly, that isn't the case.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Traveler

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2013, 12:24:02 PM »
I would add "misunderstand" to that list, or perhaps "misinterpret."  :)  Lots of theists have an experience and immediately interpret it as a religious experience, when there are lots of other possible interpretations.
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Offline Schizoid

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2013, 06:57:17 PM »
Allow me to address the "acknowledge" aspect.  I work with a very sincere and deeply believing evangelical who is my supervisor.  He do have many discussions about religion and although he knows I am an atheist he does not try to convince me to see the light.  I will never dissuade him from his faith, but I do make him think.

We were talking about how god supposedly gives us free will to chose to follow him and accept Jesus or not.  I told him that it seemed like extortion when god says he will send you to hell if you do not choose Jesus, not much of a choice in my book.  My friend (I consider him a friend since he respects my position even though he disagree and I respect his choice to believe) acknowledged that I did have a point there.  He didn't have an answer, but he could see my point.  If only more believers could at least be that honest.

Offline neopagan

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 09:44:09 PM »
so, he acknowledged you had a point and that was it... ?  stuck his head back in the sand and mumbled faith? He had no desire to pursue it?  Weird... I wasn't even that bad as a theist.
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Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 12:03:17 AM »
so, he acknowledged you had a point and that was it... ?  stuck his head back in the sand and mumbled faith? He had no desire to pursue it?  Weird... I wasn't even that bad as a theist.

I think that the faithful know that they do not really have to reconcile a good point with their faith.  Letting that good point slip by without impacting their faith seems to them, the better part of valor. If they brought reason to faith, they know all sorts of complications would arise.  If they don't, they can go along as they have, with a sense of security their faith provides.  They use 'his mysterious ways' or 'what do I know? God surely knows more" as ways of side-stepping the issue.

Offline Mooby

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 11:30:53 PM »
It is funny that atheists will never ever ever not a single one ever be straightforward with their apologetics.

Whenever they think up an exciting new idea, they rush to start a thread claiming no theist will ever give a straight answer to their game-changing questions. The hope is they can goad someone into giving a straight answer so they can unleash the fury of whatever trump card turned up this week.  And this applies to every single atheist in the world.

Because sweeping generalizations are a good foundation for every logical argument.


Now, please shower me with your evidence of this mass refusal. I'm expecting at least a few dozen theists stubbornly refusing to answer your question straightforwardly, and zero agreeing. Then, and only then, will it be appropriate to discuss why they do so, if in fact they so do.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:34:07 PM by Mooby »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 08:08:00 AM »
It is funny that atheists will never ever ever not a single one ever be straightforward with their apologetics.

Whenever they think up an exciting new idea, they rush to start a thread claiming no theist will ever give a straight answer to their game-changing questions. The hope is they can goad someone into giving a straight answer so they can unleash the fury of whatever trump card turned up this week.  And this applies to every single atheist in the world.

Because sweeping generalizations are a good foundation for every logical argument.


Now, please shower me with your evidence of this mass refusal. I'm expecting at least a few dozen theists stubbornly refusing to answer your question straightforwardly, and zero agreeing. Then, and only then, will it be appropriate to discuss why they do so, if in fact they so do.
There is no apologetics in atheism. Non-belief has nothing to apologize for.


I've been asking this question since 1996 or so.

And you do understand to a certain extent you are asking me to prove a negative. When put forward this proposition and theists view it(viewing this thread as some boards have), yet don't answer, there's no "evidence" per se.

However as to thouse actively answering threads; Babz Zax never did, Neither did Buck Alec, Nor Curious Job, Nor Johann, and there's others.

I've also used it on Usenet in the nineties and early 2000s.

So this isn't some "trump card this week" I've been using this one for 16 years. In fact, I tend to try to use it as a reset button when the conversation is spinning off into minutea about a bible verse, or insults.

I revisited certain particular arguments and analogies for years; The four step theist challange/Ugabuga, The Flying Shoes, Angry with Harry Potter followers, Dreams of an Avanced Civilization and welcome centers for the aliens, Getting a toddler drunk and handing them car keys, and this one. Most recently it has been "community theater" which I came up with around 2 years ago.

If you want to accuse me of being a broken record, you'd be more accurate than "trump card this week"


Now, given that you do believe in the supernatural, shall I take note that you too did not answer the question?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 08:23:54 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Mooby

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 03:51:44 PM »
There is no apologetics in atheism. Non-belief has nothing to apologize for.


Quote
And you do understand to a certain extent you are asking me to prove a negative.
No, I asked you to provide evidence of the consistently negative results that you've claimed to observe to a degree that establishes a strong pattern (I suggested a few dozen would work.)  Asking you to prove a negative would be something like asking you to show that no theist in the world would ever answer your question.

Quote
When put forward this proposition and theists view it(viewing this thread as some boards have), yet don't answer, there's no "evidence" per se.
Making any judgement on someone viewing your thread and not posting a reply is the argument from silence fallacy.  There are many reasons for not replying to a thread, and thus the judgement that the lack of reply signals a refusal to answer the question is unfounded and illogical.

It's as illogical as the claim that every pirated copy of a movie represents a lost DVD sale.

Quote
However as to thouse actively answering threads; Babz Zax never did, Neither did Buck Alec, Nor Curious Job, Nor Johann, and there's others.
I don't know any of these people, have no way of verifying that you ever interacted with them, and have no way of telling what, if any, comments they made in response to your questions.  You are making claims about them, but do you have any evidence to back up those claims?

Quote
So this isn't some "trump card this week" I've been using this one for 16 years.
See what happens when we start making sweeping generalizations?

Quote
Now, given that you do believe in the supernatural, shall I take note that you too did not answer the question?
And there's the goading I predicted.  Nice try.

I'm getting tired of threads like this one, this one, this one, or even this one in which the owner makes an ignorant generalization and then tries to antagonize the opposition into replying.

You go take note of whatever you want.  When you're ready to have a discussion, let me know.  I do happen to have a straightforward, simple answer for you, but the sweet irony of it is that you'll never get it if you start the conversation by claiming I won't give it to you.  You are not entitled to a response from me, or anything else.

I might have an alternate explanation for why your question has been falling flat since 1996.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2013, 07:33:03 AM »
  You are not entitled to a response from me, or anything else.


Well then you are not deserving of anything but scorn and ridicule. After all you started with an appeal to ridicule, then try to flip it on somehow I'm being the illogical one, mainly through an appeal to igonrance, then the bullcrap of "I could answer it, but I'm not going to"

Well, that's like saying "I do have a dragon in my garage but I'm not going to show you, You don't deserve to see it"

You're full of it and you know it.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 07:44:28 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Mooby

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 08:21:10 PM »
Well then you are not deserving of anything but scorn and ridicule.
Argument from ridicule.

Quote
After all you started with an appeal to ridicule
False.  I started with a tongue-in-cheek illustration of my own argument to emphasize why sweeping generalizations are silly.  The argument against you was that your reasoning was fallaciously based on sweeping generalizations, not that your reasoning was silly.  Therefore, no argument from ridicule was applied to you.

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mainly through an appeal to igonrance
Ok, I'll bite.  Where is the appeal to ignorance?

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then the bullcrap of "I could answer it, but I'm not going to"
Actually, it was, "I am perfectly willing to answer it on neutral terms.  If you would like to stop grandstanding and start a reasonable discussion, I will gladly participate."

Quote
Well, that's like saying "I do have a dragon in my garage but I'm not going to show you, You don't deserve to see it"
No, it's like you showing up at my garage mocking its contents without ever peeking inside, and then demanding that you be allowed in.  Then it's like me replying that you're welcome to come in as soon as you can calm down and approach respectfully, only to have you start banging on the garage again.

I offered to have an adult conversation with you; instead you fell back on your childish goading and are trying to pin the blame on me for your immature behavior.  However, since I'm a nice guy, my offer still stands: when you're ready to get over yourself and have a grown-up conversation, let me know.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2013, 06:07:48 AM »
...when you're ready to get over yourself and have a grown-up conversation, let me know.

Mooby, to help this conversation along, can you clarify please what behaviour Hatter needs to display to you before you will answer his question?

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

So far as I have read in this thread, Hatter's point all along has been that no theist he has ever asked the question of - in various forums, and for several years - has ever answered with a straightforward "yes".  He has not generalised that ALL theists will do this (save in the thread title, which is excuseable).

You have intimated that you have an answer to his question, and a possible expanation as to why the question is flawed.  I would very much like to hear both myself, so if you could outline how we can get to that stage I would appreciate it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2013, 06:17:49 AM »
"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

The more I study biological psychology and how the senses work, the more I am amazed that we ever gain agreement on anything at all (a slight exaggeration there, but hopefully you see my point).

In another thread I posted a moving GIF that - when looked at in a certain way - the brain would alter the way it perceived a colour, despite the colour not actually changing.  That about sums up the brain for me, and how we perceive things - how easily we can "see" something that did not actually exist.  Never mind "hallucinating", its perfectly possible just to "see" something that simply is not what is actually there.

As for exaggerating and lying....I've several times been in a situation listening to someone tell a story of something I witnessed, and thinking "but....that didn't happen like that!".  Clearly ONE of us is wrong - at least to the extent of how we imparted emotionaly reactions to the event - and neither deliberately lying, so what does that mean?

To me - in those occasions - it means that if the ONLY version of the story trasmitted had been the other person's, then the story remembered in the future would be the one that I believe was incorrect.  And, if I had told the tale, then the story going forward for posterity would be wrong from their point of view.  And in neither case would either tale have necessarily been correct.

Which all means that "I saw or experienced this" is a very shaky ground for the truth of the matter.  99.999% of the time, it doesn't matter, of course.  If I tell you how I saw a blackbird eat from my birdtable, it matter not the slightest that it was a crow, or a seagull.  But sometimes it DOES matter - and those are the tales that we need to be able to examine carefully.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2013, 07:26:26 AM »
...when you're ready to get over yourself and have a grown-up conversation, let me know.

Mooby, to help this conversation along, can you clarify please what behaviour Hatter needs to display to you before you will answer his question?

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

So far as I have read in this thread, Hatter's point all along has been that no theist he has ever asked the question of - in various forums, and for several years - has ever answered with a straightforward "yes".  He has not generalised that ALL theists will do this (save in the thread title, which is excuseable).

You have intimated that you have an answer to his question, and a possible expanation as to why the question is flawed.  I would very much like to hear both myself, so if you could outline how we can get to that stage I would appreciate it.

Yes reviewing the title, it was poor grammar on my part.

None the less I am not going to be a tugging my forelock and saying "sorry" for anything other than a bit of bad wording. Particularly from someone who states that I need to have an "adult conversation" when posting the "wah wah" video.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2013, 07:29:25 AM »
Theists never answer the hard questions. Or the easy questions. Or the medium-difficulty questions.
IMO it's because the questions make them think (doubt), and they can't handle that.

Actually they do answer the easy questions; points of doctrine, biblical support for what they are saying, and so forth. In fact the more complicated the question, the easier it is to answer...with vagaries.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Mooby

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2013, 07:40:43 PM »
Mooby, to help this conversation along, can you clarify please what behaviour Hatter needs to display to you before you will answer his question?
As I mentioned earlier, I feel his OP comes as an aggressive attack that simultaneously demeans theists and attempts to goad them into responding before they ever get a chance to reply.  I would like to engage him on this topic, but am not willing to do it if I feel I am being sneered at from a position of superiority (whether that is Hatter's specific intention or not.) 

I asked Hatter if we could have the discussion on more neutral grounds, and gave examples of other threads with a similar opening to his that I found to be equally aggressive, and shared that I had an answer for him but did not want to give it in a case where he was acting like he was entitled to a response.  In return, he told me I deserved "scorn and ridicule" - which I felt was a validation of my objection.

Quote
You have intimated that you have an answer to his question, and a possible expanation as to why the question is flawed.  I would very much like to hear both myself, so if you could outline how we can get to that stage I would appreciate it.
I don't have any specific thing in mind I'd like to hear.  Really, I'd just like to see an attempt at a respectful and more neutral tone; I don't know the exact steps necessary to achieve this.  Perhaps you can help steer us both towards a happy medium.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 02:43:20 AM »
You have intimated that you have an answer to his question, and a possible expanation as to why the question is flawed.  I would very much like to hear both myself, so if you could outline how we can get to that stage I would appreciate it.
I don't have any specific thing in mind I'd like to hear.  Really, I'd just like to see an attempt at a respectful and more neutral tone; I don't know the exact steps necessary to achieve this.  Perhaps you can help steer us both towards a happy medium.

Do you feel that the tone I have adopted in this thread is appropriate, for instance?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mooby

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 07:32:54 AM »
Yes, I do.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline BillyM67

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Re: It is funny that theists will never answer me.
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 11:16:05 AM »
When I ask the question:

"Do you acknowledge people hallucinate, lie, and exaggerate?"

The problem is you are equating "hallucinate" and "exaggerate" with "lie"

I think the better question is, "If someone lies to themselves, then tells that lie to others as if it is true, because they have convinced themselves that their lie is true, are they liars?"


edit - corrected quote
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:14:29 PM by screwtape »