Author Topic: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.  (Read 1758 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2013/07/24/problems-with-the-fine-tuning-argument/
The article talks about quite a few different problems with the fine-tuning argument, as the title implies, but this is the one that I found the most striking.

Quote
Black holes: our universe is full of them – trillions and trillions of them. It seems like the very purpose of the universe is to produce black holes (not life). There are more black holes than life bearing planets (a lot more). A lot more material in the universe is devoted to creating black holes (a lot more). The universe is almost entirely a vacuum, in which black holes, not life, thrive. We barely struggle along, having a very difficult time surviving, in brutal competition for resources on a microscopic island of life that will be melted by the sun in some time. If we’re not wiped out by meteors or interstellar radiation before then. Life has a hard time starting and is very easy to get rid of. Black holes, on the other hand, are inevitable consequences of this universe. And then it’s almost impossible to get rid of them. Black holes are right at home in this universe.

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2013, 01:18:22 PM »
Black holes +1    Humans -1
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline One Above All

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2013, 02:25:08 PM »
A good argument, IMO. Especially since I love physics.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2013, 03:01:46 PM »
A slight variation on the same question : Does the Universe have Purpose?

And a great set of answers:




Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2013, 04:29:25 PM »
NdGT is a rock star. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline rev45

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2013, 04:47:35 PM »
^I was kinda taken aback by my composition teacher when she said she had never heard of him.  I was hoping to do a compare and contrast paper on him and Carl Sagan but she wouldn't approve it since she had never heard of Neil deGrasse Tyson. 
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Offline Nick

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2013, 05:15:07 PM »
Odd reason to not let you go ahead.  Is she afraid of learning something new?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 05:35:47 PM »
^I was kinda taken aback by my composition teacher when she said she had never heard of him.  I was hoping to do a compare and contrast paper on him and Carl Sagan but she wouldn't approve it since she had never heard of Neil deGrasse Tyson.

I would have responded "So, would you be more comfortable if I just used a couple of your favorite "My Little Pony" characters?"
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 05:45:00 PM »
^I was kinda taken aback by my composition teacher when she said she had never heard of him.  I was hoping to do a compare and contrast paper on him and Carl Sagan but she wouldn't approve it since she had never heard of Neil deGrasse Tyson.
I've bumped into a number of people who have no idea who Dr. Tyson is (and, by extension, do not know that he should have a Human of the Year medal).  I do find it surprising because he's injected pretty deeply into normal pop culture - appearances on The Daily Show/Colbert, The Big Bang Theory, etc.

It's weird.  But then again I didn't know what the hell a Snooki was for the longest time.  Meh.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 09:11:54 PM »
I would have responded "So, would you be more comfortable if I just used a couple of your favorite "My Little Pony" characters?"

OOHH OOHH, My Little Pony


It's weird.  But then again I didn't know what the hell a Snooki was for the longest time.  Meh.

OOHH OOHH, Snooki...

Talk about black holes.....
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 09:30:51 PM »
Well, you could argue that black holes are sucking away all the crap that would bomb us, if there were no black holes. Without black holes, we would have to live in a liquid universe, like species 8472.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 11:40:21 PM »
I just wasted way too much time reading the links to that article and the links to the links and geeking totally out. Thanks for nothing, like a black hole full of nothing. ;)

And Dr. Tyson is a god. Like Thor, only smart. And black. And a real person.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 07:38:23 AM »
The quote I took away from the video...

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. 

M o n e y!

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Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2013, 01:08:57 AM »
I just wasted way too much time reading the links to that article and the links to the links and geeking totally out. Thanks for nothing, like a black hole full of nothing. ;)

And Dr. Tyson is a god. Like Thor, only smart. And black. And a real person.

He kicked Pluto's ass.  Not even Jupiter had the guts to do that.

Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2013, 03:53:17 AM »
Hi,
I know this topic has been and gone, but thanks for linking my above article.

On this topic, I was wondering whether this would be of interest to you. There is the idea that no matter what was in the universe, and how difficult or easy life would be, theists would claim this as evidence for their conclusion:

http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2012/12/26/heads-you-win-tails-i-lose-1/

Let me know what you think!


Offline Ataraxia

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 04:19:46 AM »
Thanks for bringing this thread back to the forefront.

The biggest problem I find with the fine-tuned argument is that it is incompatible with dualism, and therefore Christianity.

Ask someone who uses it what they mean by "life" and they'll tell you that they mean physical, intelligent life, yet they simultaneously believe that they will exist forever, along with their intelligence, in some non-physical ether. So actually, they don't believe there is anything intelligent about physical life, infact they believe life can exist dis-embodied, which, if you follow the reasoning, would mean that nothing physical is living. A human body, for example, is a corpse that is animated by the "soul" - the essence of life, which carries on it's existence when it leaves the physical form.

It's not the universe that is fine-tuned for life, it's heaven that is.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 04:52:39 AM »
The problem with the fine tuning argument is that it is suggested by religious people who have no idea what they are talking about and who don't really care about the facts.

The universe is near to the worst tuning it could have for life to exist.

My guess for why our universe is so badly tuned is that it could be a second generation universe in a cascade. Third generation universes branching from ours would be uninhabitable.
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Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2013, 08:35:48 AM »
Thanks Ataraxia - I might just nick your comment for a blog post! Interesting idea.

Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 08:38:03 AM »
Quote
The problem with the fine tuning argument is that it is suggested by religious people who have no idea what they are talking about and who don't really care about the facts.

It is the sheer level of unknowns (how constants could or would interact together, what God intends, what forms life could take, whether life could exist in different parameters, what the frequency of opportunities for amino acids to combine was etc) which show that the argument is a total non-starter. You cannot assess probabilities with this level of unknowns and lack of frequency knowledge.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 08:46:48 AM »
Thanks Ataraxia - I might just nick your comment for a blog post! Interesting idea.

Royalties in the post? ;)
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 08:50:03 AM »
[    ]


(the sound of tumbleweed)

Offline stuffin

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2013, 10:38:36 AM »
Thanks for bringing this thread back to the forefront.

The biggest problem I find with the fine-tuned argument is that it is incompatible with dualism, and therefore Christianity.

Ask someone who uses it what they mean by "life" and they'll tell you that they mean physical, intelligent life, yet they simultaneously believe that they will exist forever, along with their intelligence, in some non-physical ether. So actually, they don't believe there is anything intelligent about physical life, infact they believe life can exist dis-embodied, which, if you follow the reasoning, would mean that nothing physical is living. A human body, for example, is a corpse that is animated by the "soul" - the essence of life, which carries on it's existence when it leaves the physical form.It's not the universe that is fine-tuned for life, it's heaven that is.

So if have a soul you are a ZOMBIE????


 ;D
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2013, 11:02:03 AM »
When someone believes something is true, they will generally go to great lengths to rationalize away any flaws in it.

Someone explained the concept of airbrushing a picture (removing imperfections) in order to make it look better to me recently.  It's pretty much just like that with the rationalization of beliefs.

Offline Devout Atheist

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2013, 10:06:41 AM »
A fascinating insight that shows more rescent studies have shown that far from being destructive, black holes are actually creative and no sign whatsoever of the hand of God.


Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2013, 10:49:26 AM »
The really great thing about black holes is that when earth finally gets sucked into one, all the pollution we've caused will become irrelevant. Once the planet is torn asunder and all the little bits and pieces are squished into a basketball sized lump, little problems to radiation and polluted water will seem quaint.

I'll be watching that video this evening. Thanks, Devout Atheist, and welcome to the forum.
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Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2013, 11:41:00 AM »
Hmm, I'm not sure of your point.

So will humans and murder. That doesn't mean that for the here and now we shouldn't reduce murder rates? Or am i reaading this wrong?!

Offline Jonathan MS Pearce

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2013, 11:42:19 AM »
Thanks for the welcome, btw, on the introduction page! Most appreciated.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2013, 04:10:52 AM »
Another reason for why the fine-tuned arguement is incompatible with Christianity is the proposed miracles of Jesus's conception and resurrection. With the virgin birth, natural laws are suspended, evolution is rendered redundant and God puffs a fertilised egg into the womb of Mary. Again with the resurrection, natural laws are suspended, entropy is bypassed and God creates a life by reanimating a body. If the supposed fine-tuned and yet variable natural laws that allow life to exist can be suspended and life can still be created, then fine-tuned natural laws aren't needed for life to exist, because God can, and has, made life exist without them.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline William

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Re: The universe IS fine-tuned. For black holes, that is, not life.
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2013, 04:20:36 AM »
If the supposed fine-tuned and yet variable natural laws that allow life to exist can be suspended and life can still be created, then fine-tuned natural laws aren't needed for life to exist, because God can, and has, made life exist without them.

The Discovery Institute will not be pleased when they read that! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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