Author Topic: It beggars belief  (Read 714 times)

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Online bertatberts

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It beggars belief
« on: July 30, 2013, 03:25:16 AM »
I was perusing the internet. when I came across this, a Sin list

So running my eyes down, I noticed number 401 "Abstaining from eating meat" 1 Timothy 4: 1 - 4.

3 being the verse in question.

It said in the KJV <snip>, and commanding to abstain from meats, <snip> So I thought I check out the other versions, the NIV had this <snip> order them to abstain from certain foods,<snip> So I then checked the ancient Greek version (I have one) which when I translated it, it was in line with Young's literal version <snip> to abstain from meats <snip> please note two things here one it refers to meats only and that it isn't a command from someone to abstain, it's a choice for a person to do, which would be a sin.

So it brought me to thinking, how many anti gay, anti abortion, etc. Religious protesters are vegetarians, and hypocrites. 

It appears the bibles are written to suit, rather then read literally from the original.
I know this isn't news to us, however.

This list has 667 sins, even loving the world and the things in it is a sin, the things in it include family, friends pets, vistas, flora, etc... It beggars belief!
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline jetson

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 06:57:51 AM »
Have you learned nothing about cherry picking at this forum?  Shame on you ...

 :)

Offline Mooby

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 07:25:20 AM »
It doesn't say abstaining from meat is a sin; it says that advocates of false belief systems will claim that eating certain meats is a sin. This was probably written to distance Christians from the Jews (though the astute Christian might claim this is an early warning against Islam.)
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 07:45:59 AM »
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." KJV

I don’t think you got that one right. Perhaps sticking with the no tattoos and God hates shrimp? I know there is much more than those two but I don’t think the above is one.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2013, 07:50:59 AM »
The "best" ones are 540-541 - "SAY YOU HAVE NOT SINNED" and "REFUSE TO ADMIT YOU ARE A SINNER", placed in the list to deflect any criticism of that list.

"What, how is being discouraged a sin?  That's not fair!"
"Questioning the list eh?  SINNER!!!!"
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online bertatberts

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2013, 08:59:40 AM »
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." KJV

I don’t think you got that one right. Perhaps sticking with the no tattoos and God hates shrimp? I know there is much more than those two but I don’t think the above is one.
Yet the literal translation is "YLT 1 Timothy 4: 1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, 2 in hypocrisy speaking lies, being seared in their own conscience, 3 forbidding to marry -- to abstain from meats that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those believing and acknowledging the truth, 4 because every creature of God [is] good, and nothing [is] to be rejected, with thanksgiving being received," it clearly states, being seduced by spirits, and the teachings of demons is a sin, that saying one thing but meaning another is a sin, that not marrying is a sin, that not eating meat that god put on this earth for them is a sin. It is not relevant whether they turn away from the faith. The fact that they could do any one of those, means they are sinning. So if religious vegetarians reject meat they are sinning and they are hypocrites, (which is also sinning).
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline G-Roll

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2013, 09:27:04 AM »
Oh so you are saying that the vegetarians are sinning?  I can see your point there.

However:

Quote
So it brought me to thinking, how many anti gay, anti abortion, etc. Religious protesters are vegetarians, and hypocrites.
Not a one that I know. Most hippies I know are pro-gay and kind of have a live and let live kind of attitude. That or they are to stoned to tell me their stance on such matters.
I am not claiming such a person doesn’t exist or that all vegetarians are hippies but you had it painted to sound like these fundamental Christian hippies where everywhere.

Offline Backspace

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2013, 09:36:45 AM »
Abortion is the first one on the list, but neither biblical reference supports the claim (from the fetus' standpoint).
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2013, 09:39:55 AM »
Oh so you are saying that the vegetarians are sinning?  I can see your point there.

However:

Quote
So it brought me to thinking, how many anti gay, anti abortion, etc. Religious protesters are vegetarians, and hypocrites.
Not a one that I know. Most hippies I know are pro-gay and kind of have a live and let live kind of attitude. That or they are to stoned to tell me their stance on such matters.
I am not claiming such a person doesn’t exist or that all vegetarians are hippies but you had it painted to sound like these fundamental Christian hippies where everywhere.
Agreed, when reading it back it doesn't quite get my point across. What I was trying to say was that religious protesters who are anti gay, anti sinner, etc. and are also vegetarians are hypocrites. Hope that clears it up.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline G-Roll

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2013, 09:58:32 AM »
Quote
Agreed, when reading it back it doesn't quite get my point across. What I was trying to say was that religious protesters who are anti gay, anti sinner, etc. and are also vegetarians are hypocrites. Hope that clears it up.
Perhaps if it was aimed at the Chick-Fil-A guy for claiming that gays should be jailed and donating at least 5 million dollars to anti gay hate groups.

It could be argued that this religious hate monger is sinning because he claims his chicken is 100% whole breast meat when actually there are 52 other ingredients that are far from chicken.

Quote
It’s a parade of industrial substances combined to make a foodlike product.

http://www.care2.com/causes/just-56-ingredients-in-chick-fil-as-chicken-sandwich.html

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »
I've read that list before.

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline rev45

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2013, 04:41:38 PM »
I was perusing the internet. when I came across this, a Sin list
Hey there's my bucket list, thought I had lost it.  Thanks for finding it for me. 
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Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2013, 04:47:31 PM »
I was perusing the internet. when I came across this, a Sin list
Hey there's my bucket list, thought I had lost it.  Thanks for finding it for me. 

I can help you with that "false worship" bit.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Doubt

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 10:13:32 PM »
WOW, that list is just every shade of crazy.  Basically every human emotion is a sin.  I've certainly never been more proud to be a vegan, neglectful of housework, or 100% homosexual.

BTW, it says the penalty for "astrology" (level of participation not qualified) is death.  Who knew?

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 10:43:15 PM »
BTW, it says the penalty for "astrology" (level of participation not qualified) is death.  Who knew?

The stars?  ;D
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2013, 04:14:05 AM »
WOW, that list is just every shade of crazy.  Basically every human emotion is a sin.
<snip>

That's the point. Christianity is based around the belief that everyone is a sinner, among other beliefs.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: It beggars belief
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2013, 07:08:26 AM »
This made me think, and maybe I'm just confused, but, in Christian doctrine, did all that "sin" baggage come into being after the Fall? I mean, were Adam and Eve supposed to be perfect and not liable to commit any sin other than the one thing they had been warned against (eating the fruit)?

The list does read pretty heavily NT, with all the references to Jesus, but also a lot of OT laws in there.

Point being, I guess, that let's say A&E never ate the fruit, and continued their life of bliss in the garden, would they have continued to live in behavioral perfection, and not be subject to ever feeling anger or to having the occasional spat? And what of their descendants? Would there never be any jealousy or laziness or rebellion among them? Or would these lapses simply not count as "sin" yet, not having been expressly forbidden? Did all these traits only arise in humanity after the Fall? The Bible tells of the change in the Serpent (crawl on belly and eat dust), and of the trials that A&E would have to endure as a result of eating the fruit (toil, pain in childbirth, etc), but does not mention anything like "thou shalt now be prone to committing some sin or another every time you turn around". It's not in the Creation story, anyway (as far as I can see), but maybe there are allusions to it elsewhere. I have never managed to slog my way through the entire Bible, and much of what I have read was so boring that it never really went beyond just looking at the words without a whole lot of comprehension. I always sort of figured that "original sin" meant the taint of that one disobedience being passed down throughout the rest of humanity, but I guess that one "sin" opened the door to all the rest?

Not that I'm expecting it to make any sense, but looking at it that way just makes god look even pettier and more vindictive. And the mythology even more like Pandora's Box.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:15:34 AM by jynnan tonnix »