Author Topic: What death is  (Read 1219 times)

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Online screwtape

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What death is
« on: July 29, 2013, 09:54:28 AM »
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/blue-wave-of-death-shines-light-on-longevity-20130725-2qm0s.html

Quote
Scientists have witnessed how death spreads through a living creature like a wave, each cell dying one after another until the entire organism is deceased.

A British team captured the final moments a tiny, transparent ground worm's life by tracking a blue fluorescence molecule that travels through the organism's cells as it dies.

No souls found.
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: What death is
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 01:35:38 PM »
My favorite explanation of the spiritual soul is that it is our consciousness. Our ability to recognize that we exist and recognize ourselves as individuals. Of course it's all BS... Everyone knows ones soul is found in their ability to enjoy certain types of music and in ones dancing skills.

If the first definition is the accepted rule than we humans wouldn’t be the only ones with a soul apparently. Chimps, orangutans, dolphins, and elephants have the ability to recognize themselves and think on an individual level. So clearly humans wouldn’t be the only creature bestowed with a soul. Makes one question if we would share a heaven with apes, dolphins, and elephants? After all if god cares enough for these creatures to give them a coveted soul would they not enjoy the same afterlife?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: What death is
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 02:06:14 PM »

No souls found.

Quite obviously, the blue wave is the soul manifesting itself and ascending to heaven. (It's a well-known fact that worms go to heaven.)
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: What death is
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 04:38:14 PM »
Everyone knows ones soul is found in their ability to enjoy certain types of music and in ones dancing skills.

My chihuahua will dance for pizza.  May I assume then, that he has a soul, or just "soul."
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: What death is
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 04:50:01 PM »
But seriously...

I have watched people die including my own mother.  I have taken care of brain-dead patients who were on life support waiting for their organs to be harvested.  In people it's more than cell by cell.  It's more like organ system by organ system.  What we refer to as the "soul"  seems to disappear long before the vital signs cease.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: What death is
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 05:04:44 PM »
Everyone knows ones soul is found in their ability to enjoy certain types of music and in ones dancing skills.

My chihuahua will dance for pizza.  May I assume then, that he has a soul, or just "soul."

That puppy got SOUL  8)

Offline Traveler

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Re: What death is
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 05:19:26 PM »
My dogs are more sentient than some people I know (severely handicapped cousins). My dogs have emotions, attachments, memories ... even as a child I thought the complete separation of animals from humans was absurd. We are all animals. I see no difference that could be a soul. None at all. So, the average person is more intelligent than the average dog? So what? If the abrahamic god exists, apparently those cousins have a soul but my dogs don't. Even though my dogs can interact with me, can communicate with me, have moods, can ask for things, can respond appropriately to stimuli ... and my cousins cannot.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: What death is
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 05:37:53 PM »
My dogs are more sentient than some people I know (severely handicapped cousins). My dogs have emotions, attachments, memories ... even as a child I thought the complete separation of animals from humans was absurd. We are all animals. I see no difference that could be a soul. None at all. So, the average person is more intelligent than the average dog? So what? If the abrahamic god exists, apparently those cousins have a soul but my dogs don't. Even though my dogs can interact with me, can communicate with me, have moods, can ask for things, can respond appropriately to stimuli ... and my cousins cannot.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:26)
Man was made in god's image to rule over the animals. Man was made superior to the "beasts" of the earth. I would assume that the soul of a human would be superior to that of an animal as well. Also Christ died for humans not animals. So I don’t think god cares at all about your dogs... I don’t recall any scripture about animals in heaven either. So the afterlife aint looking good for Fido.

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Re: What death is
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 06:28:16 PM »
Yup, G-Roll, the abrahamic religions do teach that humans are "above" the animals. That attitude has led to a lot of evil, up to and including massive destruction of habitat, species, and indigenous peoples. Personally, I find this kind of attitude to be one of the worst evils of religion, and if flies in the face of much of what we know about the world.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: What death is
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2013, 12:08:55 AM »
If the abrahamic god exists, apparently those cousins have a soul but my dogs don't.
The real question is does the Abrahamic dog exist?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What death is
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2013, 02:01:27 AM »
If the abrahamic god exists, apparently those cousins have a soul but my dogs don't.
The real question is does the Abrahamic dog exist?

.....said the dyslexic agnostic insomniac.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online screwtape

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Re: What death is
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2013, 07:36:53 AM »
Makes one question if we would share a heaven with apes, dolphins, and elephants?

I hope so.  I wouldn't really be heaven without elephants. Though, I could probably do without the chimps.
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Offline wright

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Re: What death is
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2013, 12:30:18 PM »
Makes one question if we would share a heaven with apes, dolphins, and elephants?

I hope so.  I wouldn't really be heaven without elephants. Though, I could probably do without the chimps.

I want to go wherever the dinosaurs ended up. An eternity kissing Yahweh's feet and ass might just be tolerable if there were dinosaurs wandering around. Ditto Hell.
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Offline Nam

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Re: What death is
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 03:41:28 PM »

No souls found.

Quite obviously, the blue wave is the soul manifesting itself and ascending to heaven. (It's a well-known fact that worms go to heaven.)

It's only so the fish in heaven have something to eat.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What death is
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 05:07:04 PM »
There's water in heaven? Go figure.  :?

That reminds me of yet another of the unsatisfying discussions I had with the JW's when I was a member.

JW: "After Armageddon, there will be no more suffering, no sickness, no killing or dying."

Me: "Right, got that. So, what will we eat? No killing animals, so no meat, right?"

JW: "Hmmmm. Well, see, Jehovah God will give us special food that does not require killing anything."

Me: "Ooookay. So, why can't Jehovah God give us this special food now, so we can stop killing animals right away?"

JW: "I think we have had enough questions for now. Let's all open our Watchtower  magazines to page 65, shall we?"
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 05:13:36 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Schizoid

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Re: What death is
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2013, 08:54:13 PM »
I don't "know" what death is.  I remember an episode of The Mentalist entitled, "Then, It's Gone".  In it Patrick Jane has an antagonistic, one upsman relationship with the medical examiner.  But Jane catches something about the ME that others do not see--that he has a serious illness, one that the ME knew would kill him.  In the end the ME asked Jane if he could be with him while he took his life via a drug overdose because with someone from the police present at the time of death there would be no need for an autopsy--something he had performed on so many others.

Jane said he didn't think he could do that and then went into the kitchen to make himself some tea, leaving the ME alone (he knew what was happening).  When he came back and sat down near the ME he showed him a simple sleight of hand coin trick, repeating it while each time saying, "It's there, then it's not" as the ME slipped away, thanking Jane before it was over.  Jane then took the cup of tea from his hand before it could spill.

For me that was both moving and compassionate, with Jane helping the passing of a man with whom for the episode he did not hate but had a kind of gotcha relationship.  That's how I see death--you're there, then you're not.

I thought of this after I recently went through through a medical procedure, the one you get every 10 years and have to drink the disgusting liquid the day before in preparation.  I underwent anesthesia and I distinctly remember being in the procedure room and then the next thing I was awake in my recovery room.  It was like a light had simply gone off--I was there, then I was not.  For me, that is how I see death and I only hope my own will be that simple and easy.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What death is
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2013, 02:31:15 AM »
I thought of this after I recently went through through a medical procedure, the one you get every 10 years and have to drink the disgusting liquid the day before in preparation.  I underwent anesthesia and I distinctly remember being in the procedure room and then the next thing I was awake in my recovery room.  It was like a light had simply gone off--I was there, then I was not.  For me, that is how I see death and I only hope my own will be that simple and easy.

I've had those, and I know exactly what you mean.  You're there....then nothing.  I can roll with that.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online screwtape

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Re: What death is
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2013, 07:07:58 AM »
That's how I see death--you're there, then you're not.

Calls to mind two movies, one very good, one not.

The not: Chicago, when the innocent Polish woman is hanged it is played as The Amazing Disappearing Woman, or something like that.  I thought that was a novel take.

The very good: In Temple Grandin she sees a cow put down for slaughter.  She asks "where did it go?  It's there, and then it isn't. One second it's a cow, then next it's just meat."


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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What death is
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2013, 08:11:30 AM »
Quote
A British team captured the final moments a tiny, transparent ground worm's life by tracking a blue fluorescence molecule that travels through the organism's cells as it dies.

No souls found.

To pull this back to the OP.....I reckon most Christians (as G-Roll suggested) would look at you in confusion and say "of COURSE no souls were found - worms don't have holes, you silly billy, only people have souls".  And within their theology, they would be quite correct - that experiment proves nothing.  Now, if we could track a molecule through a human, that would be something else.  Trouble is, the believers still wouldn't care, I'd wager.  It'd be "yes, when that blue light went out, that was when the soul left.  We can't detect souls when human are alive, why would you expect to be able to detect when one went?"


edit - fixed quotes
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 10:22:15 AM by screwtape »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online screwtape

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Re: What death is
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2013, 10:23:04 AM »
We can't detect souls when human are alive,

herein lieth the problem.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What death is
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2013, 03:15:54 PM »
We can't detect immortal souls. We can't detect any sign of souls at all. As has been said, there are living human beings who show less evidence of sentience and less personality than a pet cat, rat or dog.

Some religious people are afraid that, if humans don't have souls, then people are not worth any more than animals, or insects, or dirt. There is an assumption that non-soul humans will be mistreated. As if the only reason to value a person's life is a supernatural one...Strange, how the belief that people had immortal souls did not prevent slavery, genocide or gender oppression.

I don't know of any atheist who thinks that people should be treated badly, because they don't have immortal souls. It means that we are all part of the natural world, and our existence is limited. It means that the earth is not just here for us. And when an organism dies, it is gone forever. If anything, it means that we should be treating the animals and plants of the world better, not that we should be treating people worse.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: What death is
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2013, 05:39:11 PM »
From the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm (and I suppose they should know, as they claim to have been thinking about this for the last 1700 years.)

If there be a life after death[1],[2] clearly the agent or subject of our vital activities must be capable of an existence separate from the body. The belief in an animating principle in some sense distinct from the body[3] is an almost[4] inevitable inference from the observed facts of life. Even uncivilized peoples arrive at the concept of the soul almost without reflection[5], certainly without any severe mental effort[6]. The mysteries of birth and death[7], the lapse of conscious life during sleep[8] and in swooning, even the commonest operations of imagination and memory, which abstract a man from his bodily presence even while awake[9]—all such facts invincibly suggest the existence of something besides the visible organism[10] internal to it, but to a large extent independent of it, and leading a life of its own.[11]

I can only conclude that, after all those years of deep thought and lamp-lit discussion, they still have no idea what they are talking about.

However, science has not slept during that time and has come up with real answers about the real world. Yet still there are those whose thoughts are mored in the 4th century.
 1. Note the use of the subjunctive to indicate doubt
 2. Note the use of if. It follows that if there is no life after death, then there is no soul. This is unhelpful. You use the soul to show the afterlife and the afterlife to show the soul.
 3. Note that this ‘thing’ is distinct (separate) from the body, yet as each human body is said to have one, how, then, is it ‘distinct’?
 4. Note ‘almost’ - I don't think 'almost' can be justified: it needs to be omitted. Anyone who thinks about "the soul" fails to decide what it is.
 5. And what else should we trust to the judgement of “uncivilised people”? The existence of the Judeo-Christian god? I’m sure they think he is a myth
 6. Note how the Church encourages ignorance
 7. Screwtapes dying worm goes a long way to explaining the latter.
 8. Here the writer attempts to draw a parallel between sleep and death. This was popular up to the early 20th century. Remember the gravestone, “Not dead, only sleeping.” To which Spike Milligan replied, “Who’s he kidding?”
 9. This is called thinking – does the soul do this? Is the soul our imagination… or simply imaginary?
 10. ’invincible’ = ‘too strong or skilful to ever be defeated’. However, you will recall that all this is based upon the word “if” and accepting unthinking ignorance as your guide,
 11. That’s an interesting thought… your soul and you are quite different; you are different beings. Who is it who goes to heaven? A soul that you have never been acquainted with?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 05:43:35 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online screwtape

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Re: What death is
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2013, 07:21:27 AM »
Even uncivilized peoples arrive at the concept of the soul almost without reflection, certainly without any severe mental effort.

This is hilarious.  They think this helps make their case.  Paraphrased: "Uneducated people instinctively believe this without really thinking about too much, let alone investigating it or doing experiments, so it must be true."  The same could be said of the belief in a flat earth. 

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What death is
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 06:07:13 PM »
^^^^Yeah-- that's why the Catholics had to send out all those missionaries to tell the uncivilized people that their concept of the soul was wrong, wrong, wrong. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.