Author Topic: What Is God?  (Read 608 times)

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Offline In God I Trust

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2016, 10:37:09 AM »

In summation, God is the prime, the very source of all things.

What ever understands, possesses, or controls that which is/was the prime/power source acts as God and is in leadership within the Divine Council.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:24:03 AM by In God I Trust »

Offline In God I Trust

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2016, 10:53:37 AM »
Kingdom, rulership, and control are themes that are prevailent throughout religion. Morality is oftentimes secondary to obedience and that obedience is what is credited to individuals as righteousness. This war for heaven has thrown creation out of balance. Something had to be done about it. Insert Jesus.

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2016, 11:30:45 AM »
Kingdom, rulership, and control are themes that are prevailent throughout religion. Morality is oftentimes secondary to obedience and that obedience is what is credited to individuals as righteousness. This war for heaven has thrown creation out of balance. Something had to be done about it. Insert Jesus.
so where are they now?
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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2016, 11:38:16 AM »
First off, I want to say that I respect your willingness to acknowledge that whatever exists must therefore be natural.  You might be surprised at how many people draw some arbitrary distinction between supernatural/natural to insulate the objects of their religious beliefs from everything else so that you can't use 'natural' means to examine them, which results in them twisting themselves into knots to attempt to explain how they can know anything about them in the first place.

That being said, I think you slightly misunderstood me.  You seemed to be implying in your OP that 'God' was sentient and intelligent, and I was trying to ask you why 'God' would need to be sentient/intelligent, since as I showed, it's possible to explain things using a non-sentient, unintelligent event such as the Big Bang.

The clarity in what I wrote seems to have been lacking. My apologies. WHat I wished to imply was that the Prime is is something that the powers that be believe they know, understand, and commune with. They, the gods and their messengers, pass their beliefs on to life forms like us. Psalms 82 exemplifies that Divine Council concept of which I speak. It appears that almost all ancient Mediterranean cultures had some conception of a divine council.
while the divine council of the various cultures came about there was a whole other world out there. That whole other world waiting to be conquered and destroyed by the followers of your 'peaceful religion'. It's nice that these peaceful people could pick and choose violent passages((inspired by God) to justify global murder and slavery. It's also real nice how you dismiss early Christians as fake so you can justify why you still believe in the war monger you call God.

I never claimed the people were peaceful, nor did I claim the powers that be to be peaceful. It would appear that vying for positions within the DIvine Council was an ongoing thing. In what statements of mine did I point an accusatory statement at early Christians? According to what I believe it is those early Christians, were they alive on Earth today, that could point the finger at us for not being authentic.
so where is the point in your posts? Apparently your God can be whatever you want it to be without the historical evidence of how violent God and his followers are/were. Your posts are what then preaching?
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Offline In God I Trust

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2016, 12:02:29 PM »
so where is the point in your posts? Apparently your God can be whatever you want it to be without the historical evidence of how violent God and his followers are/were. Your posts are what then preaching?

"Peace through tyranny," "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings," "Make peace by finding peace within" are different approaches that leaders and influencers have employeed to accomplish the objective of what they deem to be an orderly society. YHWH, from what we read fits into the tyrannical catagory.

Offline albeto

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2016, 12:06:59 PM »
Kingdom, rulership, and control are themes that are prevailent throughout religion.

By this logic, governments that share themes such as corruption, oppression, and aggression towards vulnerable people and cultures are also somehow "right" in the grand scheme of things.

Morality is oftentimes secondary to obedience and that obedience is what is credited to individuals as righteousness.

Agreed. Obedience and righteousness often work against what is understood to be moral. If you're familiar with the bible, you'll see many instances of just this. Heck, if you're familiar with these recent threads, you'll have a good idea.

It is for this reason, the value of obedience over morality, that makes theism socially dangerous and individual theists untrustworthy. It's the moral relativism that points back to a sense of obedience based on an imaginary, divine regime that render religion detrimental to people and communities, and ultimately to the health and well being of everyone on earth. The only religions that are no longer threats to humanity are the ones that incorporate secular morality into codes of conduct.

This war for heaven has thrown creation out of balance. Something had to be done about it. Insert Jesus.

What balance? You can't understand any of this power's qualities, how can you determine when things are in or out of balance?

Offline albeto

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2016, 12:10:34 PM »
"Peace through tyranny," "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings," "Make peace by finding peace within" are different approaches that leaders and influencers have employeed to accomplish the objective of what they deem to be an orderly society. YHWH, from what we read fits into the tyrannical catagory.

Yahwey doesn't bring peace, so... he's a failure peacemaker, and just a bully. Psychologically speaking, he's psychopathic and sociopathic and remarkably narcissistic in that he's devoid of empathy and will use others to further his own goals (glory).

Why do you think such a character be worthy of admiration, much less worship?

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2016, 12:15:59 PM »
so where is the point in your posts? Apparently your God can be whatever you want it to be without the historical evidence of how violent God and his followers are/were. Your posts are what then preaching?

"Peace through tyranny," "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings," "Make peace by finding peace within" are different approaches that leaders and influencers have employeed to accomplish the objective of what they deem to be an orderly society. YHWH, from what we read fits into the tyrannical catagory.
easy to find peace,but those pesky Anglo-theists think just because they say so they can take my land,poison my water and profit by stealing resources. Matter of fact they are doing it around the globe.
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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2016, 12:21:36 PM »

In summation, God is the prime, the very source of all things.

What ever understands, possesses, or controls that which is/was the prime/power source acts as God and is in leadership within the Divine Council.
Gods power can be controlled by others? Good to know,as there are many examples of humans acting God like,through acts of genocide,just following Gods example?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2016, 08:57:23 AM »
If I haven't answered the question in the past, I apologize.  To me, the difference depends on the ability of the person to concede an alternate viewpoint.  My experience has been a person who presents their faith as fact will tend to be extremely reluctant to give any ground in their beliefs or admit alternate views could be valid.  The intent tends to be converting others to their way of thinking. 

A person who believes their faith to be true is more likely (to me, anyway) to concede other view points as being valid.  Such a person is not focused on converting other people to their way of thinking. 

OldChurchGuy, what you appear to be describing here is simply degree of confidence in the truth-value of a claim.

Do you think that an atheist, when saying something is fact, does not concede the possibility of the incorrectness of that fact?

To you, what is the difference between a fact and an irrefutable fact (a phrase that you've used in the past)?
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2016, 10:38:47 AM »
If I haven't answered the question in the past, I apologize.  To me, the difference depends on the ability of the person to concede an alternate viewpoint.  My experience has been a person who presents their faith as fact will tend to be extremely reluctant to give any ground in their beliefs or admit alternate views could be valid.  The intent tends to be converting others to their way of thinking. 

A person who believes their faith to be true is more likely (to me, anyway) to concede other view points as being valid.  Such a person is not focused on converting other people to their way of thinking. 

OldChurchGuy, what you appear to be describing here is simply degree of confidence in the truth-value of a claim.

Do you think that an atheist, when saying something is fact, does not concede the possibility of the incorrectness of that fact?

To you, what is the difference between a fact and an irrefutable fact (a phrase that you've used in the past)?

My experience is that atheists are also people and, as such, it depends on the person.  Some atheists, like some theists, seem to be unable to concede an alternate viewpoint may be valid.  Others in both camps, hold on to a belief / understanding but not so dogmatically that an alternative idea is rejected without any consideration. 

From my perspective, an irrefutable fact compared to a fact is a matter of degree and wording.  I believe an irrefutable fact is one which cannot be successfully challenged based on available information and evidence.    For example, carbon 14 dating can be applied to determine the age of objects.

A fact would be something like carbon 14 dating can be applied to successfully and precisely determine the age of an object.  In many cases that may be true but not necessarily in all cases. 

Not sure if I am making sense or simply floundering so will quit while I am behind.  :)

As always,

OldChurchGuy

 
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2016, 12:57:39 AM »
From my perspective, an irrefutable fact compared to a fact is a matter of degree and wording.

Is that not precisely the comparison you have between fact and true?  Degree and wording?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2016, 08:56:33 AM »
From my perspective, an irrefutable fact compared to a fact is a matter of degree and wording.

Is that not precisely the comparison you have between fact and true?  Degree and wording?

Well, your questions have once again prompted me to re-examine what I believe to be true and why.  So, thank you for that. 

Regarding the difference between "fact" and "irrefutable fact" they are, in essence, synonymous.  I am a strong believer in the Socratic view of the world which says basically there is precious little we "know".  There is much we believe to be true but cannot prove. 

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2016, 03:34:37 PM »
Are we discussing Divine council, Prime....etc like making up a new RPG.

Anything tangible here that can be falsified or is the OP just making shit up?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2016, 03:41:41 PM »
OldChurchGuy,

What if "truth" is a measurement of reality based on a variety of factors?

Let's say you told a judge a story of a drive you took the other day for purposes of a court hearing, with intent to tell the full truth.   You'd still likely not have perfect memory right?     That story would maybe be 85% true or so... something like that?   90%?

If your wife asked you how she looks in a certain dress to you, you might like the dress but, want to make her feel good, and care about your relationship, so, your response might be 50% true or 60% true or whatever right?   (insert joking response)

The more simple a statement, the easier it is to measure, and the more likely it can be closer to 100% true.   Such as, "I have two apples, you have two apples, we combine them and have four apples."

That's true... but, in a year, we might just have a pile of rotten mush.

---

Philosophers argue that if there are measurements like "Good" or "Truth" then, there MUST be an ABSOLUTE GOOD, or ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and this, they understand to be GOD.   You're familiar with those arguments right?

But there are numbers... is there an absolute "greatest" number?

There are sizes... is there an absolute "greatest" size?

There's light speed... but if warping space is possible, then there are speeds which can exceed light speed right?

Is there an absolute "greatest" smell or taste?

Just because there are causes, does there have to be a first cause?   Just as there are infinite numbers, couldn't there be infinite universes or cycles or whatever?

---

IF many things can exist or be measured without an ABSOLUTE state... couldn't "truth" or "goodness" exist as descriptive measurements that don't have an absolute state?

i.e.   Just because we can measure truth, or the "goodness" of an act or person (based on many factors), doesn't mean an absolute state is required for those things to exist.



Based on this, there don't need to be "absolute facts" to the degree that, say, we can't prove we're not part of an advanced computer simulation for 100% sure.

We can measure the truth, or probability of truth, based on a number of factors, like in a court case.   We can measure goodness based on a number of factors such as how much help and benefit is generated by an act compared to harm.

Given that parts of the Bible are in high probability of being in error, (untrue) and parts of the Bible are in high probability of being evil (as ordered by God in the stories)...   if the Bible is a divinely inspired book, by some being, that being simply CAN'T be the ultimate source of truth or goodness, since there are problems with that being's instructions and actions.

You even acknowledge this, and imagine a God that is greater than the being described in the Bible, a being more in line with your own enlightened and empathetic views.

---

Again, I have great respect for you, yet, I can't discern why you have any faith at all, or why, for example, I might want to adjust my thinking to think "more like you" and have faith too.   I know you're not shoving your beliefs down my throat... I know... but, what is your best argument for why you believe what you do?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 03:43:37 PM by YRM_DM »
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Offline albeto

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2016, 04:51:59 PM »
I am a strong believer in the Socratic view of the world which says basically there is precious little we "know".  There is much we believe to be true but cannot prove. 

I don't understand. Care to elaborate?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2016, 12:51:17 PM »
There is much we believe to be true but cannot prove. 
Do you think you can name something that you believe to be true but can prove?

What do you mean by prove anyway?  Is that the same as 'provide evidence in support of the positive truth-value of a claim'?

Quote
Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.
It does not.  At some point I thought you viewed the difference between fact and true to be confidence in the actual truth-value of a claim.  What you're saying here does not support that notion.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2016, 04:18:36 AM »
I am a strong believer in the Socratic view of the world which says basically there is precious little we "know".  There is much we believe to be true but cannot prove. 

...but ideas can be proved false, including Christianity which can be objectively proved false. People only believe Christianity for cultural and psychological reasons. Subjective belief in Christianity is simply a mistake.

Since Socrates time, there are also ways of proving stuff to be true to the level of human perception on Earth. So for example the fact that evolution happens is definitely true. Biology is only subject to human error in dealing with complexity and technology.

When philosophers talk about what can be known they tend to generalize the boundaries of physics to all sciences and knowledge, which is a false generalization, since human perception does not extend to the boundaries of physics. Reality is already known beyond the level of human perception. You are not a brain in a vat. You are really here and a god is really not.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2016, 08:18:46 PM »
Well, your questions have once again prompted me to re-examine what I believe to be true and why.  So, thank you for that. 

Regarding the difference between "fact" and "irrefutable fact" they are, in essence, synonymous.  I am a strong believer in the Socratic view of the world which says basically there is precious little we "know".  There is much we believe to be true but cannot prove. 

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
however, you act as if you do know lots of things.  This near solipsism is a common dodge for Christians who want to hide their god under a rock.  It is nothing more than a god of the gaps argument with a dash of special pleading.   
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Offline junebug72

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2016, 06:21:59 AM »
Well, your questions have once again prompted me to re-examine what I believe to be true and why.  So, thank you for that. 

Regarding the difference between "fact" and "irrefutable fact" they are, in essence, synonymous.  I am a strong believer in the Socratic view of the world which says basically there is precious little we "know".  There is much we believe to be true but cannot prove. 

Hopefully, this clears things up a bit.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

however, you act as if you do know lots of things.  This near solipsism is a common dodge for Christians who want to hide their god under a rock.  It is nothing more than a god of the gaps argument with a dash of special pleading.

I don't know velkyn OCG seems to have faith in things and is comfortable not knowing.  That's the impression of him I have always gotten.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2016, 03:20:07 PM »
Gods were a first guess made by primitive, superstitious homo sapiens for an explanation for the origins of themselves, their world and the universe.  The gods usually took on a fatherly figure, as we liked the idea of a protective & punishing figure-head.

As Sigmund Freud said:  “Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity.”

The idea has continued due to childhood indoctrination, and keeps adults in a state of infancy.



« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 10:12:20 AM by Star Stuff »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline velkyn

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2016, 12:14:00 PM »
I don't know velkyn OCG seems to have faith in things and is comfortable not knowing.  That's the impression of him I have always gotten.

part of faith is being sure you're right, which I would argue means that you think you know something for sure.   
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2016, 01:35:49 PM »
Gods were a first guess made by primitive, superstitious homo sapiens for an explanation for the origins of themselves, their world and the universe.  The gods usually took on a fatherly figure, as we liked the idea of a protective & punishing figure-head.

As Sigmund Freud said:  “Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity.”

The idea has continued due to childhood indoctrination, and keeps adults in a state of infancy.



The latter sentence reminds me of a quote from a bishop who said hell is made up: "People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
Sometimes what is unknown is the most interesting.

"It is always darker right before the light.  Or for some people, it just stays dark, but they don't seem to notice."

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: What Is God?
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2016, 01:41:31 PM »
The latter sentence reminds me of a quote from a bishop who said hell is made up: "People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."

Indeed.

God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups